👍🏻👎🏻שניים הפוך - פרק 56: על גבול הקיפאון

Two opposites, Shimon Breitkopf and Alter Greinvais, go on an ideological clash and argue about everything possible. >> Good, it's a mitzvah, a mitzvah once in a few years. >> Wait, we have a custom here on the podcast to start with a verse, you pick the verse. >> The right to be Haredi. >> I chose the path of faith, Haredim like in the old days, and there's also... >> A moment of truth. >> Returning your voice to something like that. >> Everything, everything, yes, that we are all happy, it's election eve, just like we have Succos eve, Pesach eve, now thank God election eve, thank God God graces us. >> God graces us, not everyone is happy the same way. >> Yes. >> You can't compare my joy. >> Exactly. >> Your joy is a bit more complex, more... >> Why? In a certain sense, they returned the right to vote to me, just like the copywriters of the Haredi public say. >> Yes. >> I'm suddenly thinking about things anew and discovering all sorts of things that will be interesting to talk about. Even though I'm happy, I need to work on myself and improve constantly, but there is no Jew who isn't happy about ... >> You’re getting lost. >> And there is no Jew who doesn't like to dance a bit, but my joy is less, for you, less joy than I thought. I mean, even though you reached the dead end. >> I reached... >> What is it, you, I hope, as someone who is leaving here, you reached the dead end, and whatever happens... >> You’re done for. >> I think whatever happens, I won, but... >> Yes, okay, I say the same thing too, no , no, I need to talk about this for a second, ah, regarding a few elections, first of all, you are definitely talking about the central Shiur, I really like that it's... >> That suddenly there isn't such... >> There is some ability to cover, to cover the...not to mention the Holy Name, to cover, the central Shiur has some very, very interesting characteristics. >> Which, by the way, people think Gur, it also includes Dushinsky and Chernobyl. >> Not Chernobyl, sorry. >> It doesn't include Vizhnitz center, which I...Yes, we are dividing, and in a moment we will talk about Rabbi Stark and about the rabbis in general, about Rabbi Leit, it seems there are many rabbis. >> By the way, the milking event, we need to talk about that, there was a milking event by Rabbi Liyakim, Rabbi Yekim. >> Who is a great light in these elections in general. >> Yes, I think Rabbi Liyakim understands the new language of, we’ll get to it later, that... >> Israel is marching, the walls of Israel . >> The walls of young Israel. >> To the young. >> Meaning, there is Rabbi Porush who represents the Haredi, the wall... >> The old wall, and he represents the wall, the gates of the wall, in a way the wall is less threatening, less, ah yes, more accessible. >> I want, though, just for a moment, to start first with this simple matter of identity, I mean, ah, and it really fascinates me every time anew, we were sitting, I was driving this week in Bnei Brak and a group of kids, some of yours, wanted to stick vinyl banners on my car, and I tell them no, no, our vinyl banner is what the Rambam determined that... >> That if you throw... >> But why is this Rambam that...I didn't throw your Rambam, everything is included in the right to be Haredi, it seems like... >> You're saying the right to be Haredi is actually... >> Because if you threw between Torah and ...you threw the... >> On the other hand, there is also the path, I chose. >> Right, so you're saying you don't want to get caught up in controversy. >> No, even with Rambam, the precision of the language—it’s always if that was the story, Rambam, you have to know how to study it. >> Yes. >> I think there is no Raavad there on the spot. >> And Derech Emunah, who even knows? >> And I care so much now that there aren’t even people who understand that the Rit is the Rav, Sher is the house on Raavad Street. >> We are already on our own. >> Yes, we are already old, like that. >> With those...those things they used to call parentheses. >> Yes, parentheses, do you remember? >> Yes. >> Inside that we would slip something in, and only, like, three people understood the commentary. >> I think it’s still there. >> No, I don’t know, there were things he always—like, many people would write on his doors for him to write your entry in parentheses. >> And in parentheses, it was... >> The main point, yes, the essence of the matter, that it wasn’t in parentheses . >> So, we need to talk a lot about the parentheses, and what is amazing and interesting is that, you know, things that are said—here and there, now I was happy, you were sad, and this story is the "I" and the "you," and how much our identity is a collective identity. I...I’ll say it more clearly. Yaakov Sher and Rabbi Stark and Rabbi Leitner and many other good Jews, they go— someone is going there to defeat the other, and unfortunately, neither my salary, nor my life, not even the drafting of my friends, has changed because of that. What did change is the uprightness of the posture in... >> Mine? Or... >> Mine. >> And that is what is amazing. I walk around and I return to the children in Bnei Brak who put that on me—they go to either win or lose, and the truth is they aren't going to win or lose; they are going to get the same beatings from the same teacher in the Cheder. These elections won't change a thing. I always—people tell me '89 was a mistake. >> '89 was a struggle here. '89 changed Haredi Judaism. Obviously, it changed it. Obviously, it changed it. >> But the Gur Hasid who won that night and went to sleep, Mordechai Leib, exactly, didn’t... >> By the way, I don't think the Gur Hasid went to sleep exactly in '89, what’s with you? No, surely... >> It was 52. It was a dazzling success, surely, they were sure they passed the threshold. >> Fine, we didn’t understand that, but ... >> We didn’t understand perfectly and they went down to... >> You understood? That’s already an excuse for punishment. >> It’s like...it was like saying that it’s actually five, four, uh, uh... >> I don’t think you’re right that they went...I have a bit, I’m older than you, '89, I wasn’t fully aware. >> No, my first political activity in my life, by the way, was in '84. My father took me, my father took me to tie the ...the... >> By the way, my activity, that when the "Bonayich"[You will build] and " Mazonach"[Your food] also falls on me ... >> I’ll catch...I’m good with that, from my mother. >> Meanwhile, the "Mazonach" is with you. >> My mother, may she rest in peace, opened a headquarters of wood— that’s what she called it, of wood— at home. >> Even years after that, it was orange-colored, wood painted orange. >> They didn’t promise "Bonayich Mazonach," they wouldn't support if there’s no check, if there’s no cash on the table, so...so we found that, and since then—here, for example, these elections, the Hasidim no longer promise "Bonayich." >> Exactly, I have a feeling that " Mazonach" is actually promised by Rabbi Leitner, but let’s talk about that. >> So my mother, she opened that, so it was truly—I think the Haredi public in its political awareness was the first, and really to this day I think there isn't another public like that, where politics dictates everything. The secular guy isn't talking about these elections, he doesn't feel a type of struggle here. >> In the same place, in the same place. >> But there is no other public where politics dictates their entire agenda. I’ve thought for quite a few years that if Shas and UTJ were to unite, then even in educational institutions, discrimination on a racist background would end. >> Fades, yes, yes. >> It wouldn't end, it would just move to other things. >> And then it turns out, by the way, there will always be racism, and always , and then it turns out. >> That the racism exists on both sides, meaning both sides find it important to maintain, very comfortable with the situation. >> The sea, but I’m saying politics dictates it. You see kids, like you said, in Bnei Brak, they can run and get beaten and beat others up and preserve things because of politics. I remember, I remember. >> That supposedly has nothing to do with them. >> I remember the. >> But that’s not true because it does have to do with them, because ultimately in our Haredi way of life today, politics, since both the great rabbis and this, they put. >> It’s amaz—it’s amazing to think about it. I remember, being a bit older , there was one election cycle that was tense, no names, no years, too tense. That I was really physically shattered at night, I’m telling you, I wanted to drink something, meaning this tension in those hours, it was here. >> Also the insertion of spirituality into it, you feel like a contradiction from the Almighty, you say, "Listen, if we lost in such a way after..." >> I remember, I remember on the night of, I think, Yossi Ditz, a picture of someone sitting and just crying, and you ask yourself: what is this all for now? That moment where you get to take a step back—it’s not really a step back, yes, but some ability to take a step back—therefore, after you say: " Wow, listen, you can go through these days with some kind of indifference," no, you can't call it indifference, of wishing success to both sides, or failure to all sides. >> First of all, by default, there is no success. >> By default, you wish failure on all sides; there’s never, you don't...yes , yes, what success? >> It's enough that...yes. >> No, like you see the videos of all the ...We had a mutual friend who really loved looking at things falling or collapsing. >> Yes. >> He would really, he would collect videos from all over the world of buildings falling or this, the human soul is a bit filled by collapses. >> To see things go like this. >> With a crunch. >> Now here, I don't see things collapsing , I do see questions that have actually been hovering in the air for many years reaching a climax. >> And it's a culmination, like now. >> For an outbreak, meaning this story. >> Is that now two parties are rising that threaten the Haredi establishment, one very much from the right. >> One very much from the left, you choose what's right and what's left. >> But one is the Haredi public, which suddenly introduces a woman and this and that, and actually raises claims. On the other side, a party of the color black, and now I can tell you that an honest person listens to the arguments of both sides; he cannot dismiss either this one or that one. Both sides present the unbearable Haredi tension and the fact that stuck in the middle is an establishment trying to do both, and therefore, by the way, it is very inconsistent. >> By the way, I don’t know if it’s trying to do both; in the end, it’s trapped in an impossible reality. Exactly. >> That’s it. >> The outcry here, the reasons—we need to take Rabbi Miller and Rabbi Leitner, sit them side-by-side, and just let them talk so we can understand how our situation—wait, wait, one second; he makes an argument, and the argument is valid, one second he makes an argument, and now Rabbi Yaakov Asher is sitting there. >> He doesn’t deny this argument or that argument, and neither does anyone else. >> By the way, every Jew has two noses and an opinion. >> And just because you have a good opinion—and not everyone has a good opinion—doesn’t mean you can conduct yourself this way in public life. Meaning, even if there are justified arguments, because in the end , the reality of life has brought us to a point that is impossible. On one hand , for years we got used to a certain way of life; the end has come. The end of it—now we have to decide what to do. >> I also understand the distress, sitting and watching. >> Now, from both the right and the left: let’s break everything; what was, will be no more. >> I saw documentation of Goldknopf sitting precisely with working Haredim. The irony there is unbearable. He’s catching flak—you thought he’d catch it there? Why don’t you give us core curriculum studies and such? There he starts catching it, our children are runaways, something isn't organized. >> No, because even the Haredim they call "modern" are also experiencing that same experience of contradiction. They experience that, on one hand, there is a contradiction here within the whole structure in which Haredi Judaism operates. These elections really distill that and... >> I will give you one example that is very painful to me. I only understand it finally, [if we sit] in a closed room, it can be discussed. In the last three years, there is some kind of very , very painful Haredi apathy toward the entire war, the whole question—that is a question for the religious-Zionists. There is some apathy, like you can’t manage to understand what...after all, we are currently studying, we are—everything is fine, it’s the merit of the Torah, the deaths that I don’t need to talk about in this framework...but where is the sharing of the burden? Where is the partnership? And I also understand the fear of sharing the burden and partnership, because in the end, if you give your whole heart... >> And run to the land for everything, that this is what must be done, surely a Jew like me, surely a Jew like me who is not—[in] yeshivas, there is no, there is no public... >> And the reality: an impossible life. Because on one hand, if you develop apathy, it won’t just end with apathy in this story; you develop armor over your heart to any distress of a Jew wherever they are. It can be in educational institutions, in admission to institutions. I understand both sides: in the end, an*avreich*(yeshiva student) who sacrifices his life and has no livelihood and has nothing, and he lives a life of abject poverty—why ? In order to keep himself in Noah’s Ark, he tells you: with all due respect , I don’t want him to come with an iPhone, and I don’t want that. >> Now, one more thing. >> The guy with the iPhone wants Torah education, what do you want from his life? He says, "You’re throwing me onto the street, why? Because, okay, I need to work." >> These questions are converging and starting to explode because >> I think they have no answer. You said —well, we talked earlier—you said in every possible configuration things could have looked different. Yaakov Asher could easily be the head of the Haredi public, the party public. >> And Rabbi Leitner could sit as a representative of the whole, you know, just switch the thing because everyone agrees with everyone on everything. That is to say, even if you are the Haredi who thinks something needs to be done and...it doesn't work. For the sake of the discussion, you suddenly see a picture of a Haredi guy, damaging , sitting next to... >> And put sentiment at the end of the conversations. Leave the sentiment, leave the belonging. You say, "What did you make of us? Criminals because we study Torah?" >> I say in this choice of—in the choice of every Haredi Jew who grew up in this , that he has to be put in a bind and he must choose between the appearance of, as you say, "damaging guys" and then...how many claims will he have and how much is he going with the identification and his natural place? >> On the other hand, the person says, both here and there, the people on the fringes say, "Guys, don't you understand that this can't go on like this?" Now, there is also here... >> But they don't offer any alternative either, I mean also... >> They are trying to offer. >> What are they offering? >> They say—I’ll talk for a moment about Shas, it’s easier. >> Okay. >> They say like this: four years of talking against the army and then suddenly releasing a video with hugs for soldiers, that’s also not serious . >> That’s...what are you proposing in practice? >> It says, "Come on, start dealing with it." >> Start, what will you propose? Tell me what to do with the issue of recruitment, for example, which is at the forefront. What, Leitner or "black color" or...what’s the difference? In this case, people here are speaking very clearly; one says "who won't" and one says "no." >> Even that is agreed upon by everyone. >> No, not by the "black color" people who definitely dictate the tone. >> Fine, but I think that...that... " >> Black color" people dictate the tone, " black color" people say...right, but it ... >> If you are asking me within Haredi society, I mean, now suddenly I am in areas where it is allowed to ask the question...I assume you have a choice. Where would you choose? You can hear at one table in a synagogue, one tells you "Haredi public" and another tells you " ah, black color." And suddenly you understand the essence of the contradiction. Sorry, suddenly you understand the essence of the Haredi contradiction. You suddenly understand that Haredi society is in an impossible reality. And maybe it’s...and maybe it’s...and everyone is right and everyone is not right. Like you say, it’s either everyone will succeed or everyone will fail, do you want that... >> I think we have reached a situation where there are questions that really have no answers, they don't. And the Haredi public is not used to that, because the Haredi public, from the moment they are born, lives in exclamation marks; everything is clear, everything is dictated. You get an instruction sheet from the*cheder*, after that an instruction sheet from the*yeshiva*, you have it—especially for you—you have it even after the wedding. Everything is just exclamation marks, there are no question marks. Therefore, it is very comfortable for the Haredi person from birth until death, but suddenly in the last three years, questions are arising that no one gives us answers to; not because there aren't answers, but because there's this...there are no answers. >> I remember, I think I said this here five or six years ago. I was at this... I got into an elevator with one of the great pillars of Torah Israel—I don't want to say his name. He met me, I said hello to him, I had read something he wrote, so...and then I told him, you know, in a minute-and-a-half conversation, I asked him: What do you say about...ah, I don't remember what it was, some issue? He said: I’ll say one thing: the privilege of not having to answer the big questions is over. Meaning, the Haredi foundation has operated for years where the Torah leaders decided, and by the way— unlike the view of Satmar for the sake of the discussion, or the Religious Zionist public who have clear answers —the Torah leaders decided: We don't have clear answers, so what do we do? We will judge each case on its own merits, every case on its own merits. There will be internal contradictions, there will be internal contradictions. That is to say, we will pray for the soldiers, and also say they need to be thrown out. >> And we won't pray too hard so that it won't... >> And we will also leave them in [the army]...we have no army, and also say that a soldier who was killed is holy. >> Holy, holy, you can pray by his grave, and also condemn him, and also protest, and in short, but that is... >> And all this happened for years because we were a small public. >> By the way, also on the subject of livelihood, a subject that let's say, a subject that the Haredi public is raising questions about that it’s impossible to...the public sector, we need to... >> No, not just the Haredi public sector. >> The Haredi public in most cases does not raise the questions. >> No, I think that is not correct. >> The Haredi public did not raise the questions for many, many years. Because it was possible, it was possible for all sorts of external reasons. One was, let’s say, reparations from the Holocaust, there was a welfare state, we were a small public and we weren't required to face these questions. But a period is coming where we are indeed required to face these questions: Is the Haredi individual who doesn't find his place, for whatever reason—lack of aptitude, financial pressure, or it doesn't matter—is he destined to be, at most, a bus driver, or can we give him—even then being second-class, not getting discounts at the synagogue, etc.—or give him some, some kind of horizon? That is a question. >> These people create...that is a question that has no answer. >> Actually, there is an answer to it. >> Any answer to it with an exclamation mark is a dangerous answer. >> True, I’m not saying that... >> That is to say, any answer...if the answer is, for instance, should one learn English? >> I need to take a breath for a moment, because if we*must*learn English, I’m already in a different event. >> True. >> That is to say, even if I don't learn English, I will just say it is mandatory, or conversely, if I learn English and I don't shout that this is what must be done, the declaration is very, very important and there is nothing to be done. >> By the way, the problem is that the declaration becomes a facade for everything, and nothing comes of it. Meaning that everything becomes about how it looks, how it is portrayed, how it appears on the outside, and the essence gets eroded. Meaning we realized the outer shell is intensifying, while the inside that the shell is supposed to protect— >> Now, and you're done. >> And you reach these election moments, moments where fundamental questions suddenly bubble up, moments when it’s suddenly permissible to speak and ask, and they are also important moments. I’m saying, these are moments for soul-searching. I told you, and I’ll say it here: there was an inappropriate act the day before yesterday in Beit Shemesh. They attacked an Admor. Now we both know, this is not the first time this Admor has been attacked. This Admor is not a representative—I mean, they physically attacked him. It’s not just pamphlets being released, it’s...it’s accepted among the great ones of the generation, it’s... there is a toxic atmosphere. >> By the way, there is also—apropos the condemnation, yes. >> And now, to his luck or misfortune, it’s election season, and suddenly you see the Haredi newspapers coming out— >> The mouthpieces, not the newspapers. >> Coming to his defense, and you say thank God there are elections, thank God that once in a while the establishment—which we’ll discuss shortly—has to turn around and say, " Wait." >> To relate to the subjects. >> Yes, "Come on, do us a favor, no, we aren't against you," because in normal times, just six months ago, another rabbi was shoved, and there were also blows—it was more... >> I want to say a few heretical things to you. >> Yes. >> The Haredi representatives are excellent representatives. >> Certainly. >> Not just excellent, but you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemies to go through what they go through for one hour—the pressures they are under. >> From every direction possible. >> From the Lithuanians and from the black color. >> The lynching of that now, but also in the daily grind, the need to defend ourselves to secular eyes that aren't used to the values we grew up on and what we believe in, during wartime, the need to constantly recruit, the need to be committed to the individual, the collective, and the courts—from every direction you look, and as you said, all of—Yankel Miller could have been there even if— >> In my opinion, he was and will be, like , also. >> Yes, that’s the situation, I think everything depends on the basis of the story with Meron. >> Yes, exactly, everything is rooted in —the request, the request, everything is tied to Meron, everything is there, I think a year ago— >> In Burma, on the Burma Road it was decided. >> I think that there, they didn’t take his opinion into account, and that’s that. >> You have to pay a price, what can you do, that’s— >> A gun that stands in the first act will fire now. >> Yes. >> Rabbi Porush paid for it in the best way; Yankel Miller is a very nice and pleasant Jew, he’s in another world, not another world—by the way, it could be that in the next elections he will be with the same energy, the same mood, and he will run and present why you must vote for Gimmel. >> There is something juicy about him, yes , in everything, in his figure, he stands out. >> By the way, he is the complete Jew. >> Yes. >> Meaning that if you were to tell Gemini "draw me a Jew," it would output Yankel Miller to you. >> Yes. >> Which is a novelty; I’ve known him for many years. >> Yes, the three fools who are standing —we have no, we have no opinion, heaven forbid. >> I want them to learn in some way, no, it’s not interesting, I saw there’s someone who runs them. >> By the way, he won me over; Tuvia Tenenbom wrote about him. >> Yes, well, well. >> They have a journey there into this, and he describes how he would prepare when sitting with Chaim Miller. >> Well, well, and I will never forget that. He wrote that the precision of the temperature when taking the dough out of the freezer is biological, bordering on chemical. A moment before freezing, a moment before the deep freeze. Meaning, the coldness there, that's what sold me. >> It's like slush. Yes. >> No, that's not slush. If it's slush, you've lost everything. Many fail there . You see, this is... >> The moment it turns to slush, that's it . >> That's good, so it will be slush. What happened? Even slush is good. It shouldn't be. >> You didn't understand, you didn't get the point, you didn't touch the dough, and Rabbi Talvoin touched the dough and understood, and he was privileged to see the great light at Chaim Miller's, and therefore I am a little lenient with him, but... >> I am reconsidering my whole vote. >> No, I don't know, he himself said... >> They're serving sushi, we need to talk about that, the terminology there is incredibly annoying. >> Yes, everything, everything. >> Meaning, the arguments at their base, the arguments are correct. >> They are capable of bringing you herring without a cracker, they didn't understand, they have all sorts of things, fundamentally it's a croissant instead of a rugelach. >> Yes, a hot croissant, yes, they didn't understand a thing. >> Why are you bringing a croissant? >> Generations here have eaten rugelach. >> Yes, there is something about the liquid rugelach of... >> I think that in this, Rabbi Miller is truly more precise. >> No, Rabbi Miller, because he is the classic Haredi type, like of artificial intelligence, you know the... >> But he really develops it, I mean I have also seen the teams that have groups that do deep plowing on rugelach , it's... >> He is also full of ideas, he has arguments that answer the scoffers in the original way, meaning today to answer the scoffers is no longer pleasant, many of the responders have already modernized the event and don't know how to give it to them straight when needed, there is no "smite their teeth," it’s like there is an understanding that one needs to understand the material from the outside to consider it, he... >> Is loyal to tradition. >> And also, you can't say he is embarrassed by questions. >> No. The questions make him sharper, he wants more. >> Yes. >> So... >> I don't remember how we got to this whole discussion. To this whole discussion, only because of the threats currently hovering over the establishment, our establishment, and I see it as ours because I feel a part of the Haredi establishment in the end, and therefore I also hurt, and I believe that also, by the way, both sides, anyone who hurts so much from the flaws that exist is part of the event, and he will yet return. >> Unless he returns, maybe we will return to him. >> It doesn't matter, there is no apathy among us, thank God, from no side, from no circle, there is no apathy. >> So this time there is a bit...I know, I know circles. >> I must speak about it for a moment because I am in a "central" group now that... >> A central group. >> Yes, that they are now trying to make less central and... >> By the way, the audacity just to call yourself a "central group." >> I can explain it to you historically, but I don't have the energy, first of all you know, in the end, there is a center, it's impossible to... >> There is a room, there is someone who sits in its center. >> With us, people, what is "with us people," it's who determines, people need to say that you are the center, you don't just declare it, it's not a central decree. >> No, I think it was clear to all parties that a unified slate wouldn't have been better. >> Or that some eight old-timers called themselves "Young Agudat Yisrael." >> All the internal elections were an amusing event where everyone had to choose, right? >> Yes, it's amazing how we go along with an event from '36. >> Yes. >> I mean, basically, the division between Porush and...I'm not talking about Belz at the last event now. >> That's already Agudat Yisrael, that's already new. >> Yes, because Belz actually sat and then jumped to Degel...you weren't there, there was another visit to Degel...in the end, the whole event became Degel. >> And then they start talking about a Galician method, but, uh, leave that for a second. >> By the way, you're telling me they really returned to their Galician roots now, a bit with the joy and mood and sophistication, I don't know. >> Which hadn't been there for many years, one must say, it's good, I don't want to now... >> get into trouble with the Galicians too . I mean, I have this system, but, uh, what I mean to say, the story is: I feel like I don't know, maybe I received love as a child, but, you know , not something serious, and I'm not that sensitive to what people say about me. I mean, yes, I'm sensitive, but in the opposite way. I know people who can walk around all day and just collect... you say one unkind word about them on a podcast, and that's it, they dwell on it. >> It ruins their whole day. >> And thank God, I think the Central Bloc is so strong that it can... >> especially in this period, it can afford... >> to look around and see you trying to mock it and then do "this and that." The areas where I grew up, but I don't want to...I don't want to mention names , but one of the sharpest figures of the old Central Bloc, who is no longer with us, was truly a Jew who came from a big place, he was more in the style of Rabbi Goltonof, and he once sat at a Sheva Brachot. >> What is the style of Goltonof in one word? >> Uh, how did Begin call it? A good Jewish style. >> And he sat next to one of the Rebbes who had a garden. >> And then, Remoni, a Sheva Brachot that I admit today, he was a childish figure . I think I read the book "The Gevir" by Ari Avneri about 30 times. >> Remoni, Remoni changed the Central Bloc's perception of itself. >> Yes. >> Yes, Remoni. Today there is a renaissance of this perception. I mean, there is... "Remoni-ism" has returned. >> Remoni-ism? >> It has returned in a big way, you have to...I'm saying. >> It's just that this generation doesn't have the tools to receive all this light. >> Yes, especially the young Polish generation, which I...I often credit to the Hungarian Rebbe that I have in my life, that why should I care if people laugh or... >> or enjoy it a bit or laugh. >> Buddy, you know in the end who makes it to the bank, and you know, so there are a few—I don't want to mention names —a few who pick at things in some courtyard, sitting in some corner, feeling they are the winners. In the end, who sits in the building that matters? So you really think you won? Go milk a crazy person...Jeremiah, in the end, we took it. >> That is exactly what I am talking to you about: in the end, who is set up and who... >> On the principled, substantive, and value-based questions, we have already won. >> Now you want to crown >> Now you also want us to help you >> Fine >> We will discuss it, we will deliberate, we will make decisions, things will happen, but uh, I wanted to go much deeper. This identity story drives me crazy. I mean, this story, you see it in the videos, they’re basically sitting in all sorts of advertising agencies—by the way, full disclosure, it even happened to me once And they talk about my brain and yours. How, where, what do they need to press so we forget all our claims? By the way, let’s leave the Haredim out of this. Benjamin Netanyahu has some small disaster on his back now that happened here recently, and he has no problem. That’s, by the way, a little graphics and a little more of explaining to me and you. Not just explaining, but at a level where we’ll be in a panic. What will happen if the Jew isn’t here? I mean, sometimes I, who think highly of myself, get anxious about what will happen from what—what has fallen, that the human brain really goes, you know, it tells you "either right-wing or Palestine," and you start painting Ofer Winter. >> Forget Ofer Winter, you say. >> I need someone who will speak English at the UN, I don’t care what he says, I don’t care that it won’t help anything. >> But it works, though. >> Yes, it works, it works, it’s like a compliment—you know this—someone gives you a compliment, not a slap, a good bit of praise. >> No, forget it, someone tells you, you know he doesn't mean it, but you also know what he wants to get from you. It works, and that’s what happens in election videos, and it drives me crazy . Someone can come and put me in a panic, put me on election night—I won't be able to sleep. There are people who won't be able to sleep from the tension of election night, what will happen. >> I get the impression that you will be able to sleep in any case. >> Unfortunately, I—so it’s me, you don't have... >> The nights of earning a living, losing, losing, losing—I don't know, by the way, I need to talk about this, about the election night studios. It seems to me the perfection of our entire profession: saying nothing, telling everyone, we are called—actually, it’s not just our name—the public is begging, "Come waste our time, help us get through the hours of tension." >> Now we have nothing, it’s, it’s like, I can—I can tell you a secret, but no journalist knows anything more than you do. >> That’s clear—no, it’s not clear, because I have the hours from 1 [PM] where they blather on, and the hours from 8 to 10 when the exit polls come out, everyone who has some access to the media gets some leaks. >> There are leaks, there’s one young " hardal"[Haredi-Nationalist] guy, we should talk about him sometime, he’s a total Haredi idol, he also knows not to start with the Haredim. >> Amit Segal. >> Amit Segal, Amit Segal, this guy, this terrorist starts at a very surprising time, 7. >> And a surprising hour. >> He just starts to annoy. >> Wow, wow, I remember one time he gives a report called "Wow, wow," and now, what "wow, wow"? >> There is no wow, there isn't. You've been at 10 events of this, and there is no wow. For a long, long time he's been sitting there pinching my gut. You're not doing anything now, just like some teacher holding a popsicle in his hand and just annoying the children. Now, the thing that’s even more annoying is when they close the polls, say at 8:00, you realize that everyone who went to vote from there on is simply pointless. >> It's not being counted anymore, that's really interesting. >> No, it's not just that it's not interesting, but it turns out there's some statistical distribution. >> That ends up working, yes. >> If everyone in the last hour and a half doesn't go to vote, you said the result wouldn't change. Meaning, at any given moment it splits, so maybe we could save time and stop the voting at noon. Whoever voted until now—the distribution, I don't know, you're creating a paradox which is a problem, but you understand what I mean. Our feeling, and I hear this now too, is that I don't want my vote to be thrown in the trash. There is no situation in the world where every single vote isn't discarded. >> It dictates, it dictates the >> Every single one is always thrown in the trash, I mean the collection, only it works like this if we all say >> That everything is >> That everything is then >> I think we are nearing the end. >> Yes. >> We didn't talk much in this episode, we just touched the surface. I think we... I'll say why we didn't talk, also because...I'm just an optimist, I want to end on an optimistic note. I think the questions being asked in this election cycle and the awakening in the Haredi public to improve itself—and it's a public that I think has no equal in the world, constantly striving for change and improvement—is an important thing, and it must not be suppressed, and it must not be dismissed. I am a veteran member of the establishment who thinks that change must come from within. That's it. >> Okay, historically, I haven't been involved in this. >> And change that comes from the outside, I'm not saying it doesn't work, but the price it demands means sometimes there's nothing left to fix. >> I...I will say something else. I agree with you, I now feel what has happened here in the last four years, I personally said it here 100 times, there is no expectation for politicians to solve problems bigger than themselves, it’s not like... >> Yes, and the proof is the last four years, where there was a full-on right-wing government and all the cards seemed to be in our favor. >> What is happening in the last four years, and I think in a sense—now I'm using quotation marks—in the spiritual leadership of the mainstream, there is some understanding regarding this matter that it's not certain that focusing so heavily on this politics is right. It's not certain that the decisions are made here. That is, it's true that this is the only avenue where we can act, but if we don't know how to play in the judicial systems at all, if we don't know how to play in any surrounding system, and suddenly big questions start arising that we don't even dare to ask, like, how will they eat? What is that? How will they make a living? And It may be that we need to rethink the whole idea. For years we said our effort is the pol... >> Politics, go vote. >> The last four years proved that you can put in maximum effort and just not get ... >> No, and you'll get the same results too . >> Yes. >> Forget it, like, we made the effort, and it supposedly proved itself, and then came the biggest downfall for the Haredi public. By the way. >> In the end, kids are going around with, with, with, harmful things to prison. This past week I wrote that, truthfully , politics in my opinion, for the Haredi public, I mean for decades, as you say, it was our only hope for everything. >> Yes. >> From educational institutions to this, it’s changing and shifting to much more personal responsibility that every single one... >> Let me tell you a story, maybe we’ll end with this. There was once, after— there was a time when the Religious Zionists threw us—threw us under the —there was a time the Religious Zionists threw us, that was the Brothers 'Government, they called it, in '13, '14, '15, yes. >> And in those days I was in some backwater place. It was Independence Day, they opened the railway of this thing. I wanted to see it. I arrive, the late Minister Uri Orbach of blessed memory arrived, and a Haredi Jew arrived there, obviously, not some big scholar—not by the shirt and not by the look of it. And now, Orbach was there with his kids and family, and it, you know, it was out of—it was outside the political context. >> Which, by the way, Orbach was generally outside the context, honestly. >> Yes, and then this guy stands in front of him and starts, "How could you do this to us, Uri? How could you do this to us?" And I remember him being like, not understanding the question, "What did I do to you? Who is' we '? What contract is there in..." >> Political actor. " >> I did something good for me, and that is what’s good for me." Like, "What did I do to you?""I didn’t do anything, I wanted to maximize my profits.""I have no issue with you," like, and then after that, he just tossed him aside. He says: We are talking here about a group whose participation in the Israeli game generally goes exclusively through the political plane, and therefore when they are excluded from this plane—I mean, take an Israeli kid, he doesn’t ...he doesn’t know here, not the culture, not politics, by a long shot. >> You ask him about number 26 on the list of a party in the Knesset, he gets— you get a secular kid in Blich High School, he has no idea, he knows banks a little, and he knows those who milk this—we didn't talk about that. >> What, about the milking? What about the milk? >> Yes. >> But it seems to me we need a special episode. By the way, I don't know if you’re allowed, but I would be happy to host Rabbi Vosner for a special episode. >> Yes, I would also be happy to treat him , uh, I would even be happy to milk him a little and get him on a bike. The story is that...It seems to me like a continuation of the chaos we talked about in the previous episode. >> Yes, yes, yes, yes, everything, by the way, all of life is one big continuation, you just have to pay attention. Rabbi Visspe in that one, they held an evening for singers. >> They held, what’s it called, a house gathering for singers. >> A gathering. >> You say to yourself, what do singers have to do with it? If there were a discussion on who would sing on the single, and they chose Rabbi Naftali Kempa and another Jew, I understand. After we got past that, what do singers have to do with... >> There are also elections coming up, and you need to strengthen the people, you know, have them come with all the enthusiasm. Yes, but how? The same production, the same people who consumed and enjoyed the time, do you have an answer, Ari? >> No, there is no answer. >> Uh, you didn't reach an answer. I, I, you know this, sometimes you happen to innovate processes in study, you throw points at yourself that you say can connect. It needs to be clarified. I think it’s related to milking. >> Meaning, there's a connecting thread, you mean? >> There is a connecting thread between the milking. I haven't, I haven't clarified it properly yet. By the way, I think you're throwing me...I, I also see Rabbi Goldknopf in this, meaning, so even though it looks like two sides there, you can identify here... >> You can identify a connection. >> A connection between, like, in the end everything connects, and then that moment where Rabbi Stark spoke about it feeling like the Holocaust to him. >> Yes. >> Why like the Holocaust? Because you can't cross the border. >> No, I, broadly, there is a lot here. >> I had a grandfather in Switzerland who said he felt the [Holocaust]—they always told him, he didn't have all the types of chocolate. >> Chocolate, yes. >> It was always such a process, back and forth. >> Whoever scorns that, by the way, doesn't understand, doesn't understand the world. >> Exactly, he's also not Jewish. >> By the way, without joking, the distress, I think Rabbi Shach always says this, of a child who has his toy taken is the same distress as a tycoon who lost a billion dollars. There is no real difference in the feelings and emotions. It's just that we tend to minimize the feelings of Rabbi Stark who has a hard time crossing the border , and amplify the feelings of Rabbi Goldknopf, for that matter. >> But that's a subjective matter, you can't relate to reality like that. >> Everything is subjective, but good, we need to wrap up. The thing is that we need to do this, first of all, what are we calling the public to vote for? >> Not there, he doesn't see his rabbis. >> Whoever his rabbis are, what happens? To vote. >> Whoever we are his rabbis. >> Yes. >> I think, I feel. >> I think that he doesn't have questions of this kind, whoever we are his rabbis . >> I feel sometimes in elections there's some kind of...that took all the ballots. I want to put four ballots into the thing, also Rabbi Stark, also Rabbi Goldknopf, also Rabbi Leitner, also Rabbi Miller, I don't know, also Deri, you know what? >> No, Rabbi Miller should take this regardless of election results, regardless of all the nonsense in his pocket. >> Give me two, pack me two very, very Haredi Yerushalmim, right? I remember as a child they would write a ballot, there were children who almost for a whole year had ballots like that with a ' Gimmel 'written on the back. That was the leftover from the house because they worked in some headquarters and the state released those blocks. >> They worked from the polling station itself, yes. >> By the way, the scene is that always at 10 there is terrible antisemitism, in this, no, they finished, the ballots were stolen, those pages are so predictable. Now 9:00, the big one went out to...at 10:00 they stole the ballots, at 11:00 there is... >> At 12:00 the bride comes out to vote, yes. >> And what kind of chaos at 2:00? >> Two, Arabs flocking, four, there is, yes, everything is clear. >> And then with eight, wow, wow, wow. >> That's 7:30 already. >> After that, from 10:00 the nonsense begins. >> So we, we won't get to that. We will give you all the nonsense concentrated from 10:00 onwards. We will sign off here, we are at a fateful hour. That's the truth, now, not sure about the politics, but the hour is fateful. >> A fateful hour. >> And. >> We have the privilege of being Haredi. >> An important correction from the previous podcast. You tripped me up. You said that anyone who doesn't say something should repeat it. I took heat for that. I heard from a few people who know the details, they said it was a mistake. I didn't imagine we had experts listening to us. It's true. >> No, that's just to clarify matters of belief. What's wrong with you? Are you belittling the public? >> Not that they know, like, in... >> It's not like that. It's even written in the prayer book. So now, for Torah study, you tell me—I don't want to say what happens to someone who forgets . Ask a rabbi, there are other things. >> No, we wish great success, with God's help, to the Haredi public. >> To the Haredi public. >> Not the party. >> The party too. >> I, I don't wish it for the party. I wish the Haredi public great success and that the Holy One, blessed be He, will help. >> The thing is, just like you talked about the central issue, I think any outcome for the Haredi public is a party success. >> Right. >> Like the color black, it's any outcome. >> Yes, that's right. There is a lot of positive, optimistic mood in the parties. One should say, regarding the mood, as we agreed, Rabbi Miller...uh ... >> Yes, he took the cash box. >> In the, in the, in the...so we... >> And everything, in my opinion, stems from the temperature of the Zero, the Zero, all the Zero. >> Oh, it's Zero? >> All the Zero, yes. >> I wouldn't say it's... >> You wouldn't? That's why it's...there's something very mysterious here. And... >> Meaning, I already went... >> A surprise box or a surprise box that ... >> I went with Coca-Cola. >> You see, you didn't understand anything , and not for the first time. We will sign off here. >> Wow, these croissants are better. >> May there be great success, good news, and all the redemptions. >> Choose the right path, remember the privilege of being Haredi, success, may we have more. >> You know what? I'll even slip this into the judgment, just for food for thought . Noam, do they also say something right before we go? >> Good news. >> Good news. May the greatness of Israel be eternal. >> You were listening to "Two Opposite" from Mishpacha Podcasts. I am Shimon Breitkopf, sitting opposite me is Soloiter Greivis. We'll give thanks to the content editor Tehilla Siton, the production manager Ella Goldstein, and the sound and video editors Avremi Wiesel, Daniel Levin, and Avi Willam. >> All the series and episodes are waiting for you on the Mishpacha website, on all podcast apps, and on the telephone line 07722. Extension 52. See you in the next episodes. Yeah.