It’s not so simple to convert to Judaism for marriage

there is a silent Holocaust happening right now  in the Jewish world and it's not what you might   think it's not Hamas it's not Hezbollah it's not  Iran it's not any of the forces outside of us but   there's a force within the Jewish Community right  now itself that is harming us from within and that   is intermarriage Jewish people marrying out of  the faith and I wanted to bring in Rabbi Simmon   Jacobson the head of the meaningful Life Center  to shed a little bit of light on this because   there seems to be a lot of confusion people are  converting what is a kosher conversion what is   not a kosher conversion at what point can a person  convert at what point can they not convert what   happens when a person gets a conversion and it's  not a good conversion and they have children with   their wife that their children think that they're  Jewish and they're not what are we supposed to do   as a community how do we deal with this how do  we prevent this I have so many questions Rabbi   Simon Jacobson why don't you shed a little bit  of light on this subject for us well you asked   all your questions will take quite a few hours  to unpack but let's get to the heart of it so   first first of all let me just share thank you  for having me and thank you for touching upon   a very sensitive but critical topic and uh it is  not a simple one at all for me personally I speak   emotionally in pain uh because as you're you're  right you know if a person begins to intermar and   Inter marriage begins to grow it really reflects  on Jewish identity because um I think where we   should begin with before the problem you know  why is into marriage such a big issue what's   wrong with marrying someone from another Faith or  another background a Jew and a non-jew they're all   created by God everyone created in the Divine  image so why can't two different Divine Images   whether they're Jewish or not marry I think that  question is the most important elephant in the   room so to speak and I find that many people not  only those that into Mar but many people who are   against into marri don't even know why so let me  address that as briefly as I can I think it gets   back down to it's not even about intermarriage  and marriage it's about who we are as human   beings and understanding our role in this world  so the classic and most powerful I would call it   spiritual and psychological Jewish understanding  of the human being is as follows God did create   indeed every human being in the Divine image  that's what it says in the Bible Adam and Eve   male female created them Divine image they in turn  had children those children had children and here   we are 5,785 years later according to the Bible 8  billion people on this planet all children of Adam   and Eve we all agree on that so what is this thing  called Jewish and not Jewish is it a cultural   thing is it a religious thing is it racial is it  belief systems so the fact that the the matter is   from this perspective we are essentially spiritual  human beings on a physical journey and each of us   has our destiny has our calling so just like for  example everything on Earth has been created by   God but there also species that you just don't mix  properly which means you have to have boundaries   this is not about Superior or inferior it's simply  boundaries being Jewish or being non-jewish is not   about someone being better or worse that's n big  stereotype it's about being different for example   in Judaism itself you have priests kohanim you  have Levites you have Israelites Israelite is   not supposed to go and serve in the temple  it's not his role so we have different roles   the idea of a Jew and non-jew ultimately is two  different spiritual paths and when it comes to   marriage marriage is not just a convenience it's  not just a contract it's a spiritual journey a   spiritual union why for example don't Brothers  marry sisters it's not just a taboo of incest   is because it's not the way marriages meant to be  that's not because those brothers and sisters are   not good people and people have their different  roles so the concept of intermarriage really is   a result to be very Frank of ignorance of  years and years of people losing sense of   their own spiritual identity you know Judaism for  example Rejects and tries to dissuade someone from   converting MH it's the only religion that's that  way Christians and Muslims are always looking for   converts you know why because Jews believe very  simply the way you were created Jew or non-jew   is exactly what God wants you to be you don't  need to be Jewish to serve God it's as simple as   that so the idea is this if we were understood  our spiritual identities well then this whole   issue wouldn't be an issue that's why you go back  500 years ago there was no such thing as inter   marriage because Jews were very clear about their  identity they understood their spiritual destiny   and hopefully non Jews as well did today there's  the blurring of these boundaries so when I meet   people who are inter Mar they're beautiful  people but I start talking about what is a   soul what is a soulmate and they usually don't  know much about it so I see intermarriage as a   symptom not a cause it's a symptom of ignorance  of lack of understanding what marriage is what   love is what sexuality is and what our spiritual  Destinies are about that's where it all begins   I want to put a point out for my listeners my  viewers who are watching this my perspective on   this is a little bit different probably from yours  and the rest of the you know Orthodox Jewish world   I dated many non-jewish girls before I became  religious I almost married a girl who is not   Jewish I understand the compelling nature of why  somebody would want to do it especially if you're   not connected to your Judaism and in my mind  at the time I just said to myself oh she's not   Jewish I'll just I'll just convert her she'll  just convert and then I'll have no problem so   could you and and that's the predominant thought  in many many people's minds today can you shed a   little bit of light on some of the issues because  people think it's very very simple um can you tell   us about some of the complexities of converting  somebody who's not Jewish in order to marry them   absolutely I wanted to first state the issue  itself like you know you have to explain what is   the problem what's you know before I got to the to  what you're addressing look just to continue where   you just left off the real challenge is you know  Jewish Man meets non-jewish woman Jewish woman   meets non-jewish man they're attracted to each  other they get emotionally connected and they'll   say what's wrong we love each other who what  difference does it make whether I was born Jewish   or not born Jewish um what difference does it make  and that where I go back to what I was saying well   it comes down to marriage is not just two people  who like each other or even love each other we   see how many marriages fail we see that marriage  is much more than just a business contract there   needs to be a deeper Soul connection for any  marriage to really succeed this doesn't mean   that a Jew and nju cannot have a soul connection  but marriage is more than just a soul con it's an   intimate Soul connection so the so there are  many issues that can come up if let's begin   just with one basic thing the education of the  children one let's say one of them is Christian   and one is Jewish do you send the children to  Christian Schools or Jewish schools I've seen   the tremendous confusion so usually they often  will say we'll do both or we'll do one that's   just one small example but there are many many  other examples and again remember separation does   not mean divisiveness the fact that a brother  and sister don't marry each other doesn't mean   they don't love each other it just means their  relationship is a different sort than a marriage   one a marriage is a particular relationship  that's going to build a family that's going   to build a future so the conversion process to  address that which is a whole topic of its own   that's why I want to like separate it we I'll  say the following I mentioned before we don't   encourage conversion we don't encourage it we  actually dissuade it we will tell Jews rabbis   will tell a non-jew wants to convert why why do  you want to convert there's anti-em ISM in the   world Judaism has all kinds of obligations live a  Godly life be a good person follow the universal   seven nohide laws that are the foundations of  civilization and indeed you'll have a a place   in the world to come you have relationship with  God why would you want to become part of our   nation that's the general approach if somebody  insists and it's for good reason we not talking   about insisting because they want a business deal  even for for marriage is very questionable because   it could be an alter alterior motive but forever  reason if somebody goes through all these hoops   and all these challenges that says I still want  to be Jewish here's how it works the rabbis and   the Torah tells us that means there's something  inside of their soul that seems to be gravitating   toward Judaism so here's the interesting thing  barl people don't know this a convert in Judaism   is called a Shen it's not called a it's not a  non Jew converting it's a stranger it's called   converting so the way they explain it is that that  person because they have such a strong inclination   why do they want to be Jewish means they must  have a Jewish soul and after you challenge them   and they still insist then a process begins which  I'll address a little later that we are now going   to see if that person really does have that  Jewish soul and for whatever reason we don't   know God's mysterious ways the wires may have  been crossed but there's aaric process a legal   process I mean I'll just compare for someone to  become a citizen of a country we know it doesn't   just happen because you want to become a citizen  you have to prove loyalty you have to prove a lot   of things in United States you know how difficult  it is to get a green card you know so in Judaism   requires obligations you're ready to commit  to Judaism you're ready commit to the Jewish   people you're ready to pay a price and if a person  still insists I want to convert then we go through   that process and if three authoritative H rabbis  meaning they're following the Jewish law without   cutting Corners determined then that person is as  if they were always Jewish they're considered like   a new person it's we don't call them a non-jew we  call them a Jew that was a Jewish soul that ended   up in an non-jewish body for whatever mysterious  reason the problem of course as you can understand   is is when conversions become a commercial  Enterprise you start cutting Corners you don't   really go through this process um I know people  who converted simply they paid enough money to   someone who converted them and that person didn't  have the credentials and they think they have a   paper that says they are converted and it's not  correct that would be like like someone saying I'm   a US citizen and they're not you know in that  case which today in the Jewish world there's   thousands tens of thousands maybe even hundreds of  thousands of such cases of people who went through   a non- kosher conversion whether that was reform  whether that was conservative whether that was   Reconstructionist whatever that conversion process  was what is our job in relationship to these   people how do we how do we relate to to these  people do we embrace them do we shun them do we   try to bring them to to what what is our role how  do what is our job okay so let's let's do let's   break this down into a few steps unfortunately as  I said there are conversions being done that are   called conversions and they're not conversions  um I have dealt with a lot give an example give   me an ex give me an example what does that mean a  conversion that was done that's not a conversion   for the viewers at home they may not know what  that means I yeah no I I'll give I'm I'm using   example of citizenship in a country so let's say  somebody who did not follow the laws of the I'm   taking American law United States law and some  lawyer issued you US citizenship but they didn't   uh fulfill the obligations and then later someone  discovers in the government hey this this not a   legitimate uh citizen so in Judaism there are  requirements for example a person has to accept   upon themselves the obligations of jism the  Torah Mitzvah what happens if a rabbi and I   say Rabbi not a legitimate Rabbi says you know  what you don't need to accept the Mitzvah if   you go to synagogue once a year or once a week  that's enough for me that's not legitimate so   who decides what's legitimate that's why we have  What's called the code of Jewish law called it has   detailed laws just like who decides what's kosher  what's kosher food who decides what's a good matah   what's considered to be a good deed what's not a  good deed There are rules for all of this that are   all documented mind you anyone can look it up that  require three things are required for a convert to   be a Jew to accept the Torah Mitzvah which are  basically the obligations of what it means to be   Jewish two they need to be immersed in a Mikvah  in a ritual bath and three if it's a male needs   to go through a circumcision if they're already  circumcised there are methods to man to deal   with that not going to go into the details now it  has to be done by a legitimate Rabbi that accepts   Torah as a god-given law if for example you find  a person who calls themselves a rabbi but they   don't believe in God so how can you really trust  their ability to convert someone to Judaism which   is all based on God and the Torah now I'm not here  to point fingers or criticize anyone unfortunately   there are many conversions that are being done  that are not Hally acceptable conversions now   the sad part is the person who's the convert  thinks they're Jewish they think everything is   fine they were told by a rabbi they even have a  document and they marry and let's say the woman   went through this conversion a a a Jew has to  have a Jewish mother or a woman who converted   Hally that's the key to Judaism and let's say the  mother was a convert that did not convert that way   she thinks she's Jewish her husband thinks she's  Jewish she thinks her children not Jewish and you   can imagine the tragedy I recently dealt with  a situation where exactly that the family was   innocent they were they thought they were Jewish  their daughter went to Israel met a nice guy they   got engaged and the Israeli government is refusing  to give them a marriage contract wow they say we   need proof of a conversion they gave them the  proof the Israeli Rabin it says no this is not   uh legally acceptable so it's essentially like  somebody's thinking they they own a house and   they found out that their deed is is is not is not  correct and they don't they don't own the house so   what do you do what does this person do in such  a case it let's begin with this it's a nightmare   that's first of all even before the nightmare  I I I I I felt that you were dancing around the   question a little bit um and I I know probably  there so many parts I want to I want to go   back so here's so I want I want to label it  though because I think it's super important   and you probably don't like labels go ahead but  I think it's important to label and if you don't   feel comfortable doing it I will is that reform  conservative and Reconstructionist conversions are   not helically acceptable we don't consider those  people as Jewish people is that a fair statement   or no generally yes correct okay yes it is and an  orthodox conversion is when it's done by Orthodox   rabbis and the person doesn't just get a piece of  paper saying that they're Jewish but they actually   follow Torah and Mitzvah meaning they keep chabas  they keep kosher they keep mod laws of modesty   they keep family Purity they actually are doing it  for the right reason not just to get the piece of   paper to make Mom happy at home or dad happy at  home so that they can marry a non-jewish person   yeah I let me respond to that exactly so let  me say this I know many reformed conservative   Reconstructionist rabbis some are good friends of  mine let me tell you what I tell them because it   sounds very offensive if you or I or anyone else  or Orthodox Rabbi tells them hey you know what   you think you're a rabbi you're not a rabbi I I  don't I don't mind defending them because that's   my P that's where I come from I came from the  conservative Shore they uh so I don't I don't   mind I feel like I was lyed to my whole life  but but but here barl let me tell you let me   tell you my Approach I I speak to people like this  they talk to me and I've had some conversations   that were sometimes a little contentious and a  little uh challenging um and they said so you   do not accept me as a rabbi I said look this not  about me it's not about you there's a constitution   in the United States I'm using United States as  an example that everybody has to follow or else   we have a breakdown of Law and Order if you  asked me do you believe in freedom of speech   my answer is it makes no difference what I believe  the Constitution guarantees it so I have to defend   it the the Torah has only value it's only value  if it's unchangeable if anyone can come at any   time whether it's you me or anybody and say  you know what let's change the standards it's   a breakdown of the Law and Order it's not about  personal it's not personal it's it's legal so   the fact is the Torah was given at Sinai several  thousand years ago these SE are the laws there are   many interpretations of laws that's a given there  could be even disagreements but it's all within a   context of a Torah methodology if you for example  barl were a genius and you suddenly came to to the   Jewish world and said you know what I want to  move Shabbat from Saturday to Monday or Sunday   for that matter it doesn't matter how much logic  you have how smart you are how brilliant you are   that is the law it's shabas is the seventh day of  the week is Saturday and that's that and the same   thing is with other laws now there are again  there's room for interpretations if you start   tampering with that I've said this to reform  rabbis conservative rabbis and of course they   have a different position they feel it could be  changed that's their response they say one second   it evolves people are different today there was a  time where where all non-jews were um anti-semites   I don't know today they're more friendly to Jews  I mean there's all kind I said yeah but the bottom   line is we need something that has a certain  absolute standard I'll just tell you the beneran   example I always give beneran was the first prime  minister of Israel he was not an observant Jew but   he was a smart man he said he gave the rabet the  control of the rabet in Israel to the Orthodox why   didn't he give partially to reformed conserv his  response was interesting if I make a bar mitzvah   and I'm inviting my friends and relatives  some eat kosher and some don't eat kosher   what kind of caterer am I going to bring I'm  not going to bring a un kosher caterer because   the kosher people can't eat I'm not going to bring  two Caterers because non kosher people eat kosher   and kosher people don't eat non kosher I bring  a kosher caterer whether I like it or not that   standard will satisfy everyone so the same thing  is the the standards that are written in the laws   should be the one that that's what we follow  it doesn't make a difference what our opinions   are or our feelings and I have to tell you I  have conservative reform and Reconstructionist   rabbis who may not agree with me but they have  told me you present it that way I hear I hear   your position some don't like it and some are  very offended but many but that's the position   this is not about Simon Jacobson it's not about  even Orthodox Judaism it's like I always say was   Moses Orthodox reform or conservative the answer  is there was no Orthodox reform or conservative   there was just the Torah and these were the  standards unfortunately that has been tampered   with and that's where we get to the problem so but  I want to go back to what do we do what do we do   go let's go back to your your your your case there  right this this Wonder this wonderful young lady   she goes to she goes to uh she goes to Israel she  goes to get married they ask for her documentation   F finds out that the conversion of her mother  by the way I just want to also State this for   the record as I mentioned who wasn't to kosher  conversion people that convert Orthodox are 100%   accepted with in the Jewish people as a matter of  fact we have a Mitzvah to accept them with a full   loving heart you're not allowed to insult them  you're not allowed to question them you're not   allowed to at all they're considered 100% Jews in  every sense of the word no questions asked so I'm   equally by the way I'm equally as extreme on the  other end of it and Judaism not me forget about me   Judaism is equally as extreme when it comes to a  kosher good Orthodox conversion Judaism is Extreme   the acceptance of that of that family so this  situation in Israel would have never have   happened had the had the conversion been a proper  conversion so back to your case in Israel where   the lady was not a proper conversion yes go ahead  okay so I was just the only edit that I would make   your beautiful last statement please would be I  would say Orthodox because that's really what it   means means it's not just Orthodox Orthodox Rabbi  he has to follow the laws as they were written and   have never changed over the over the centuries and  Millen and and be part of a recognized reputable   bit de yeah which is again all based means  essentially the original Law as it was written   and as is documented and accepted and never been  tampered with now so here's real I'm talking about   real life cases that I've dealt with so what  do you do the mother and father are frantic she   says I always thought I was Jewish why is anyone  telling me I'm not Jewish it's offensive I lived   as a Jew we kept Shabbat we kept kosher and now  you telling me I'm not Jewish and my daughter is   not jewi must be devastating it must be absolutely  devastating of course and in some cases they go   back to the rabbi that converted them if he's  still alive and say what' you do they say you   know some people don't accept me as Jewish and the  rabbi I'm telling real real real case studies some   rabbis say you know what I should have told you  that that I consider it conversion but there'll   be others which is what a good lawyer would  do right if I was your lawyer and I told you   something and then I forgot to mention hey that  some law lawyers won't accept this agreement you   want to know that you want to know you want to  have an insurance policy that everyone accepts so   I'm not talking now about religious standards it's  just simply like I said the beneran story you you   need to know that you go to Israel this may not be  accepted so number one they were in a way deceived   now that doesn't solve the problem so according to  the guidelines I have heard from from my teachers   and from alic experts in general even though you  don't encourage people to convert as I mentioned   but in a case like this what you would try to  do in a pleasant way is encourage the woman to   go through a conversion she can do it now and you  encourage the woman her daughter to do the same so   we're not looking here to break the marriage  to break up their date their their potential   marriage we're looking to resolve the issue now  but you have to do it sensitively cuz you don't   want to tell them hey I'm invalidating you and so  on because there's a lot of emotions involved as   you could imagine my the problem I find sometimes  is some people Orthodox are very harsh they say   you're not Jewish I don't want to look at you no  if she the mother and the father lived as Jews   and fine mistakes were made terrible so you try to  at it by simply saying let's you know what you had   a a insurance policy an A insurance policy we're  going to get you a AAA insurance policy now that   will cover everything you try to put it in couch  it in terms that are not personally offensive not   invalidating that's what a good H approach would  be to resolve that issue if I'm not mistaken if   a person was thought that they were Jewish  their whole life was brought up in a Jewish   environment went to a Jewish school found out  later in life that they weren't considered Hally   Jewish according to the according to Jewish law  it's actually easier for them to convert is that   is that not uh is that correct yeah because of  the reasons I said because the fact that they've   already lived jewishly especially if they're  really committed for rabbis that's a big factor   that means you're not talking from scratch you  could trust you know if let's say this this woman   we're talking about the mother had a coast her  home and kept Shabbat but she got a conversion was   not legitimate or not properly done so the fact  that she's living that way that means that that   you know that they are basically observant Jews  now if they're not living that way if they're not   living jewishly and they just have a document  then you have to say that you can't create a   false conversion you'd have to say are you ready  to embrace the basics of Jewish life and that's   and that's what you would try to encourage them to  do because look at the end of the day if you feel   you're Jewish then why not be Jewish you know do  it and I I've seen I'll be very straight I've seen   scenarios where this has worked literally St where  a woman who met a man in Israel and they ended   up getting married and everything was beautiful  she converted I'll just tell you something else   I was at a wedding and I wasn't officiating but  I was involved where for some crazy reason soone   decided that the mother of the bride on the day of  the wedding is not Jewish she didn't look Jewish   to him and he was the one that vouched for her  jewishness you're supposed to have done research   I come to the wedding I kid you not this was like  a disaster and um and he's saying I'm not ready   to vouch I said to him you decide on the day  of the wedding why don't you do this research   a month ago what is this and they decide you know  what they're going to do they're going to convert   her right there and then on the day of the wedding  because there's a doubt they weren't sure I said   what are you basing on that she's not Jewish she  doesn't look Jewish her nose what are you basing   it so they went through a now to the to the credit  of the Bride As humiliated as she was and she had   to you know obviously go into Mikvah gets rid of  your makeup and all your preparations and you're   here doing everything sadly she did it because I  mean the guests really didn't know everything was   delayed by an hour or two and they did it I I was  so embarrassed because I said I I can't understand   you you vouched and now you decided based on you  don't like what she looks like you know anyway   bottom line is this means that you could have done  the same thing much more diplomatically pleasantly   this left terrible taste you can imagine what the  family's felt like my point is barl there's two   things there's doing it right and there's doing it  in the right way you know we obviously know there   are standards but I just want to emphasize as  well like you said if you're doing it let's go the   other extreme let's do it sweetly with love and so  on obviously we want to make it sure it's accurate   and it's but that doesn't mean it has to be in  a way that is H just wanted to add that into the   equation I I think it's so important and you know  there's been people in my life you know friends   very close friends that have uh unfortunately  married non-jewish people and it uh I could   have probably handled it a lot better because some  of those relationships are soured today it's just   it's so confusing because you know I I don't  know what you don't know what to do about it   it's sometimes it's hopeless and there's  nothing that you could do and it's just   it's very painful it's a painful thing to see  somebody you know go in that direction but I I   want to I want to address I before you go there I  want to just say one thing about that the same is   with parenting let's say you see your child is  doing something that you don't approve of you   can go very harshly and even get your way but you  win the battle you may lose the war because you   created all this resentment and later the  child grows up and remembers I think it's   that even if something's happening that we don't  approve of or or Worse not to become judgmental   and and person because then you you add what  more to the problem right you have I know as   a as a person who deals with many situations and  I know the standards a big challenge is how do   you not personalize it you know how do you not  get angry how do you not get upset and how do   you keep yourself so my my answer always is one  way think of what's beneficial for the situation   you know if critique and judgment is going to  just undermine and won't and won't motivate   anyone and create then what have you gained so  you have to always think in terms of what's good   for the cause not what's good for you or you know  what's good for the cause for the people involved   and not allow yourself this is like same thing  as a therapist has to somewhat remain detached   from what they're hearing because you can't so you  want to be there you want to be empathetic but you   also need to show some objectivity in order to  help the situation so we're talking a lot about   the symptoms and I I want to go back to the cause  which is actually what you started out with so I   think that there has to be a renewed push you know  when I was growing up it was like inconceivable   even as reform as conservative as reform as  we were growing up it was like inconceivable   to marry somebody who wasn't Jewish it was just  like we don't talk about that we don't we don't   entertain that that's not something that we that  we do today it's become a lot more acceptable   and the culture that we live in with the liberal  ideologies that have crept in are to say really   it's actually racism 101 the idea to not marry  somebody outside of your faith that is the halic   definition of racism we have a race and we don't  want to mix with another race that is racism for   all intents of purposes I remember somebody very  close to me one of my best friends I was speaking   to his father one day his son was just about to  go marry somebody who's not Jewish and I said to   him look your son is going to marry this girl and  she's not Jewish and he says it's that sounds like   racism to me and I didn't have anything else  to say I said yeah it does um it does in in a   certain sense I'm ready to accept that I'm ready  to accept it it's but I don't just for the record   I don't agree with that by the way you should  know the non-jews also hold by the same thing   if you ask I'm pretty sure if you ask a Muslim  mother who she prefers her son Mary a Muslim or   a non-muslim she'd say Muslim a Christian would  say a Christian a Buddhist would say a Buddhist   an Asian would say an Asian an Indian would  say an Indian an Italian would say an Italian   so everybody any but but but but I want to  distinguish they may be racist remember I   mentioned for intentionally I said it was a  spiritual issue not a racist sister I'll tell   you why I don't you don't marry your sister  not because you're a racist because it's just   that's not how marriage works so that's where  I would you know I would not call it racism I   would call it more of a certain things are meant  to be married to each other and some are not you   can love a nonu deeply like I just said brother  and sister you don't marry your sister not because   you're a racist just as an example so so let's  go back to Jewish Education we have to rebr this   narrative even if it goes against popular culture  you yeah but let me tell you so let me say this   you know the statistic a very interesting one the  cities in the world that have the highest rate of   Jewish Education for children have the lowest rate  of intermarriage I'll give you names Toronto um   Panama um Mexico City and and Baltimore I think  few others the more Jewish identity meaning   children at young age in are inculcated with a  sense of Jewish identity the less likely they   will inter marry it's not guaranteed obviously  there's no such thing but so there you have the   root of the issue it's all about education and  infusing people with the spirit of what it means   to be jew if you don't feel anything unique  I mean do you know how many Jews that are not   into married you ask them what does it mean to be  Jewish they'll say I don't really know the most I   know is I support Israel and I'm and I don't like  anti-Semitism and I like a bagel lock and cream   cheese every now and then yeah so that's even  if they're married to a Jew and maybe because   they have the taboo or whatever the the the issue  is the family wouldn't approve the key is knowing   your own soul knowing your own soul I will tell  you another story another case there was a couple   who were um boyfriend girlfriend one Jewish one  not Jewish I think she was not Jewish he was   Jewish and their parents called me and I said let  me meet with them I met with them very fine people   nice people open-minded and I spoke to them about  marriage I said let's talk about marriage what's   marriage and we spoke about a spiritual union so I  encouraged them I said before you proceed with any   marriage plans why don't you read up on Marriage I  gave them my book t a meaningful life I gave them   some other books suggested books and they quote  came back and said we never knew that marriage is   a spiritual Union of Souls and like very intrigued  by what souls are like you know what happened   ultimately they're very good friends today but  they're not married they married he married a   Jew she married a non-jew they're friends because  they came to understand what souls are and they   realized it's more than just whether I like you  or I don't like you whether we get along it came   down to what's our spiritual Destiny what does  God want of us now this is of course a a happy   ending they don't always end that way trust me so  I'm not suggesting I have any magic uh formula in   this case it worked but I saw proof of concept  what works is understanding your real identity   you know I I know we're not talking about this  but you think the gender issues and the and the   bluring of boundaries today is not connected  to this it's also connected people don't know   who they are you know they don't realize that for  example in the Caba talks about a masculine energy   feminine energy most people don't even know what  that means they think it's some biological thing   and if I don't feel that way maybe I'm not M male  and I'm not here to criticize again I'm just here   to point out that we are lacking the ultimate  what makes a human being who are you you're a   spiritual identity that God put in this world with  a particular role to play and that's that it's   it affects so many things barel it doesn't just  affect inter marriage it affects roles W you know   what what is what is my role in the world if I'm  not good at carpentry and I try to be a carpenter   it's not going to work you have to find your your  unique calling what God wants of you in this world   to me that's really really the heart of it all it  all starts from there so let's let's let's take a   step forward okay let's say let's say we did our  best all right to educate our children let's say   we did our best to instill in them the values  marry a Jew and all these things and we have   siblings friends family children God forbid who de  Who start dating somebody outside of their faith   okay and they're in a intimate relationship that  that is uh you know they're dating what should our   response be because the knee-jerk reaction today  as I mentioned previously and these are obviously   in the less religious circles um is yeah who cares  just get her to convert or get him to convert so   what is our the ball let's say the ball's already  in motion how do we deal with that ball it's Case   by case um I always it's a I don't know what it's  like in New York right now but it's a nightmare   in Montreal I remember 15 years ago the first guy  who who from a prominent Moroccan Jewish Family I   remember that he decided he went to go marry this  girl she was a a French Canadian lady and and he   converted her you know with with some holy water  and uh and that like that like broke the the the   dam and today in Montreal I don't know what the  statistics are I can only tell you what my feeling   is it's like 50% which is huge for Montreal which  Montreal is from the older style communities the   more you know the more old style community and  so Montreal to be at 50% it's a mess so I have   friends right now that are dating non-jewish  people for years what do you do at that point   well you know there's that story they tell where a  rabbi was approached by a family they said we have   our children are dating non-jews what do you  do so he said you came 20 years late you know   we should have talked about it 20 years ago but  we're talking after the fact so firstly as I was   saying it's Case by case I don't think there's  a cookie cutter model and a a recipe that will   work for everybody because at the end of the day  as we both know this isn't just a question a legal   question it's not just a spiritual question  there's emotions involved when a man and woman   are in love with each other or they think they're  in love with each other you're dealing now with   emotions that are clouding people's judgment  right so you can't just sit down let's talk   about it objectively there's too many emotions  involved for the parents for example who are   devastated by it their emotions are involved their  their tendency may be I'm cutting off if you don't   break up with her don't come to me for money I'm  not coming to the wedding and that's that that's   many people's new knee-jerk reaction others have  the reaction other way you know what not so bad   she's a lovely girl he's a lovely guy you know  things like that so I think wise wisdom requires   taking everything into account and you number  one you have to be sensitive to the situation   you have to be human you can't just come in with  a battering ram and say the Torah says this is not   forbidden this is not allowed it's forbidden  and that's that what happens if they don't   they'll say you know what we're not Torah people  we're not religious what do you say then so you   have to show care and empathy that to me is always  the rule and you don't take even though I'm a Jew   I'm not taking the Jewish side versus the nonu I  care about both of you you're both human beings   God created you so my Approach would be is to  try sensitively to educate them about like I   said earlier what is marriage what are souls  you know you want to get married don't you   want to build a beautiful family don't you want  a future one day you'll have grandchildren great   grandchildren you want to leave a legacy so I try  to use it as an opportunity to get them to think   more seriously about it and not flippantly let's  be honest marriage today is also many ways almost   like a technicality how many people say I don't  need to get married I just live with we live with   each other and that's that now frankly that may  be better than marriage if you're talking about   intermarriage but but but that's also because they  don't understand the sanctity of marriage so now   are you going to you'll say to me does this work  sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't I'm being   very straight with you I have situations I tried  this and it didn't work I I I'll also be straight   with you is usually the person the people that  care the most about the couple the friends the   family the siblings the cousins it's the hardest  that's the worst people to go talk to the couple   because there's so much emotional charge around  those conversations so that's a good point they   should find someone that's objectively outside of  the the emotional sphere I agree totally I agree   totally it's very bad parents there's so many  emotions involved because I I had a situation   where the parents were trying to put pressure and  finally the guy said to them you've always been   pressured me in my life you told me what school  to go to you always controll me with money and now   you want to control who I marry so it wasn't just  the intermarriage part it was also the the complex   dynamic between the child and the parent so I  agree totally you have to try to get into a more   objective setting that's for sure it will well so  I don't have I I have to say sadly I don't have a   formula that I can tell you guaranteed to work we  try our best and we do our best I know people that   are came to my classes and they're intermarried  and they didn't have a conversion and they still   friendly with me they still come to my classes at  times and we speak and they come to see me I try   to be nice because you never know where it's going  to go with parents and family I will say this   estrangement is not an option my opinion because  the end of the day if you're the parent of let's   say an intermarried couple or intermarried  couple who want to get married end of the day   you're still their parent you never know what's  going to happen with their life and let's say it   falls apart and you are strange aranged from  them they don't even have you to come back to   so as angry as you may be and as upset you may  be I'm I'm from the Believers you have to stay   relationship obviously they know where you stand  it's not like by being nice to them that you're   suddenly endorsing it but but but they but but  you're but you are part of the family so I would   not tell brothers or sisters to cut off from their  family members because life is complex you know   the day will come there may be a tragedy there  may be a sad event there may be a loss people get   older things change you want to be able to say  you're still my brother you're still my sister   yeah I don't agree with what you did but I'll  Always Love You So I think that is a critical   piece in the whole pict picture as well so it's  a it's a it's a delicate balance balance barel   very be honest because on one hand you don't want  to endorse it on the other hand you don't want to   cut off entirely so how do you manage that do you  go to the wedding do you invite them for a Shabbat   meal and then your children see it and and then  it sounds like you're validating it so I'm not   you invite them for a Passover Sader you see it's  it's a lot of complications let's put it this way   I told you when we began talking about this I said  it's not a dealing with a Pandora's Box that that   opens up in so many directions I can only share  what's helped in my situation um is having a rabbi   um to guide you through all of these complexities  is crucial right and to not take those decisions   on yourself because a there's a lot of emotions  involved and B uh you don't always know the   correct uh things to do so so you know I've had  friends that have you know been dating non-jewish   people and I've had rabbis that have encouraged  me my Rabbi encouraged me invite them to your   shabas table why because at least maybe the Jewish  guy at the table with you will be able to see the   beauty of your shabas table and say I want this  too and he would have never have come had he not   experienced he would never have even considered  Judaism had you not shown him that beauty on   the opposite end of it I've had good friends that  have married non-jewish people and my Rabbi told   me look you cannot go to that wedding you know  it's not it's something that you cannot do all   these so my suggestion to anybody out there if  you're dealing with this is get a good competent   good Jewish Orthodox Rabbi um that will help you  through this and in my humble opinion kabad is   one of the best to deal with this this is only  my opinion everybody relax kabad is one of the   best to deal with this why because they're on the  front lines of dealing with these situation the   average satar you know Rabbi I don't know how much  they're dealing with this the average Bells the   average you know the other I don't know if they're  dealing with this kabad is on the front lines day   in and day out in every far-flung corner of the  world dealing with this half of their kabad house   sometimes is married to a non-jewish woman I have  a I have a friend he's I think he told me he's in   the Philippines or Jamaica whatever it was he says  half the Amit to non-jewish people I have to deal   with this all day long and there there's a lot of  complexities so get a good Rabbi that knows how it   that that has experience in this in this domain I  second that absolutely can you give us uh can you   give us uh Rabbi some I know that your your your  your schedule is extremely pressing and I know   you told me before you had a lot of things on your  plate today can you give us some closing thoughts   on this uh on this uh subject you know in Judaism  we look at everything as a wakeup call even when   things seem dire and the statistics don't look  good you said 50% in Montreal I know there cities   is 80% into marriage and then there's how much  of assimilation that doesn't translate into inter   marriage but it's potential inter so there's a lot  to uh to cry over but as Jews we always look in   terms of what do we do about it so in a way it's  a wakeup call a real wakeup call an urgent wakeup   call that our children perhaps are not getting  the proper education that they should you know   preemptive medicine so the first thing that comes  mind as especially as we come to the new year is   it's critical to reconnect and recommit to a real  passionate Jewish Education not just teaching our   children mechanical Judaism what to do what not  to do but what does it mean to be Jewish what   did Abraham our great patriarch Abraham stand for  he was a Pioneer that brought God to the world as   opposed to paganism brought values love kindness  instead of selfishness a self-interest to learn   to be proud of that Jud jewishness and frankly  that message is for the entire world a light on   to Nations we're not isolating ourselves we're  essentially be the ambassador of God that you   should be as a Jew that brings light to the entire  world the best defense is offense once you have   to play defense around this is very complex as  we've been discussing so that's my real thought   of how do we you know the long term the short  term we discussed you know what do you do after   the fact but long long term absolutely teach our  children we have an Rel a responsibility that we   should never have to have this question on the  table because they know what their role is if   you know what you have to do in life and you're  comfortable with it you're not going to be looking   in the other pastures and that's my that's my  knee that's my like gut wrenching whatever that's   the word KN kneejerk kneejerk reaction and if I  could add that's what I if I could add that's what   I meant if I could if I could add mine to it it  would be I know that when I became religious for   example the dating system although it doesn't  have it's it's not perfect by any means it's   a thousand times Leaps and Bounds ahead of when  you're not religious there's so many programs so   many websites so everybody's looking out for  each other there's matchmakers there's it's   it's it's a culture it's built into the fabric of  the religious Jewish culture is is getting people   helping people find their their mate and I think  that I'm speaking me personally because I hate   talking about what we have to do as a society  because that never works it always starts with   what we do personally I have to get better at  trying to make matches for my Jewish friends and   making suggestions for them to help them in this  in this way of life and something that I've been   flirting with that God willing I'll do in the near  future is uh is a dating uh is a dating event here   right here in p Pama you know have people come  from all over the world Jewish people religious   not religious who cares come from all over the  world and come here to date to find a Jewish   girl and or a Jewish boy your Jewish husband  your Jewish wife and I think that we have to   as a as a collectively make it easier for people  to find their mate because it's it's not easy it's   not easy Rabbi thank you so much for your time I  really appreciate it's always a pleasure God bless   keep up the incredible work that you're doing if  you want to see more of uh the rabis work you you   could find him on YouTube uh you can go to his  website meaningful life.com phenomenal has books   has classes has everything that you could want  thank you so much for your time Rabbi Jacobson   God bless and uh be well thank you and bless you  and your audience beautiful to be with you amen