Can A Jew Make Wine Not-Kosher?

The topic of the last several several several has been we went through many little bit of and even a few raid bites which traced some of the history of I think uh very important subcategory of this discussion is the idea and the notion that seems to be universally accepted and that is that just like if a non-Jew touches the wine of a yid that wine now becomes quote unquote yay the same would be true if a secular Jew a Jew who's not mitzvah if he were to touch the wine of a Jew that too would render the wine not kosher and problematic and I think it's kadai to explore the origin of that idea and see how it plays itself out now we didn't finish the yet today's isal stating that from all the that we've seen up until this point this is not something yet that surface. We saw a lot about that touches wine. We saw about who touched wine but he wasn't the proverbial of today's but in terms of a that is to the contrary he's a quote unquote m he's someone that fears if he now comes in contact with how exactly would that impact the kash of the wine. So just a little bit of an introduction in this is ina it's discussing the of who is and isn't where's this it's the first right the first several doin discusses stating that now one of the most basic it's a in the world of is that ki is meaning if a non-Jews an animal Even if he has a and he knows all the five and he has a etc etc etc. Even if he technically did it perfect, he's a real a surgeon is going to be a problematic says that just like if it's not a if somebody is a m meaning he violates principles in the but he does it not because of a he does to make angry even if he's a only with regards to one of the 613 mitzvah or he's not a he's a it's one but the one that he's a for even if it doesn't include so he's not he'll But the other 611 mitzvah those he's all of these people they have as it relates to the laws of says that just like it's not a there are times that aid that is not going to be a either how so meaning what would someone need to qualify what box would you have to check off to make it onto that infamous list if you go through this a little bit more careful carefully. There's four ways to make it. Number one, you're a number two, someone that's a number three, someone that's a number four, even someone that's not he's not, but he's a m for everything else. all 611 other mitzvah that person too would have a and histo would not be a so if you think about this if you meditated on on it for a moment it's a fascinating idea you can have aid who's going to have a now the first question you have to ask yourself is how broadly and how widely is this meant to be applied it's tucked away I mean certainly once upon a time was not tucked away right was no different than sim but at the same time really is stated in based on in the beginning of which are discussing the laws of the question is how broadly is this meant to be applied so we we can't go into this now because really it's but Just one thing we need to realize is that it's not as broad as you might think. Meaning the is not saying that if someone's or if someone's a or if someone's or even if he's doing that when we say it means in every single person is going to be treated like that's for sure not the case. In fact, when you learn different suggestion amongst the and even the and certainly the that talked about this how would you treat a m would you treat a woman like or would you treat a m not like just to bring out the point for a moment the is discussing who was very infamous in beginning of safety Yeshua he was given capital punishment because he was mild from the spoils of and the Pik says that when came to Yeshua and he told him that you know someone within your midst had violated what I was very clear about and that is he not let it go near the spoils his was and the says said that in this in this very sharp rebuke of there's an incredible silver lining because you see that even though had committed a sin and really this sin reflected on the entire this one of them to the idea of but at the same time what did refer to how did he describe as and you see from here that even if he sins and it doesn't matter what a he does he's still going to be considered a raam in his ton talks about this idea a little bit he says that a person shouldn't think that if he finds himself in a situation where it's very hard for him to keep tyro mitzvah. So maybe the solution is to you trigger your parachute and just check out meaning maybe what the person will say is that I'll stop being shabas I'll stop eating I'll stop being from myself to like this I'll be done. I mean the ram is describing a person that's not doing this because he really wants to but he finds himself in a situation where he has no he says what am I going to do I'm going to be a Jew and then have to give dineshman let me ask for the bill I'll leave right leave a tip on the table and I'll be done right sounds like a a rational thing if it works says you shouldn't think that you could do this as relates to the A person will be punished. And a person shouldn't think that if he's doing that he won't be punished for the says the is famous he will be punished for the what's the example of a mitzvah cuz he was He was when he was my right. That's the rest of the story. Learn it and teach it and make for it because this is the way it is. That what brought out what's said here and that is and there's no way out. There's no move that a person could do to make himself. A person could be a person could be he could be a or he could be a m for other 611 mitzvah. That person will be aid and he is going to have to give for every mitzvah and mitzvah that this person does or doesn't observe. So that's that when the says he doesn't mean he's a guy. That's it. All of a sudden it's and suddenly he has to keep and even that he's only going to get no that's not what's going on over here. This person without question is that's the clout of Israel. So then the question is when do you apply it when you don't apply it? Meaning when do we say what the says that or when do we say no is a so in terms of having a very clear guideline when you say this and when you say that that's a little and that's something that the Israel much with and worked on a little bit but just to bring out the point how sometimes yeah sometimes not if a m is his wife That's the answer is yes. If there are two brothers, one of them dies, he leaves over no children. And he has a brother. This brother has to do. But the brother that has to do is a m is this woman going to be she's not allowed to get married unless there's a or do we say no. Who's the brother? The brother is a mish if he's not a how could he be. So this is already and this is the who brings from who said this unbelievable that being that it says in the always means and if he's not someone that he's not going to have and we know that doesn't mean that means a biological brother is not even a biological brother but here's the bottom line the held that in a situation like this the brother would not be like this woman and by the way these were shall that happened a lot in the last 200 years once the skull started raging and secularism made its way throughout the and all of a sudden you had people that had a brother maybe was in America and some distant place who was not misfit and now the question is this woman who'll never be able to get okay maybe we'll allow her to get married we went through some of these tr what we maybe be okay and really stating that the whole is not that The ra holds that a is like this is a great example where you see a major on the one side the on the other side where it's a sh whether a m would be or not be we've spoken out many years that brings that says that even though but when it comes to the c of it's and the to this is And see see over there that even though that's but at the same time in the when it comes to this mmer now being mama we don't treat him like a guy he's treated like a a real yet his cave is mama it's not going to bas where there are frier Jews buried there of course not that's something that's not going to be okay is the mumitarian that's another thing we've spoken about a lot over because the because the were again we can never say this but says very very shyfulness about the and he says if they were from and treated them like the whole to the idea of a minion being and if you see they were YOU SEE A M EVEN A says would be to a minion so again not so this very tricky. You always have to know when are we going to treat him like a when are we going to treat him like a it's not so clear we have the stating that we have everything that we just mentioned for the last several minutes here's the question the question is what about with regards to if secular Jew were to produce wine or if a secular Jew would touch your wine or if you even look at your wine and the wine's does that pose a problem or does that not pose a problem? And the truth is that where it could really be an issue is people are very m when it comes to areas of y when it comes to making kdesh. Now truth is if we have time that deserves its own raid right so maybe it's something we'll talk about oris if somebody has secular Jews sitting around his let's say table where says supposed to drink I mean is that okay tell you another was asked this shil he has a whole truth on this in you're kadush and the couple that you're being mad kaducian for is a kilo couple If you're going to give them wine, the minute they touch the wine, the wine's going to become quote unquote. A person is not allowed to drink wine even if he himself was right. Just because you yourself are not doesn't mean it's for you to drink it obviously and it doesn't mean that you yourself if you're the one that touched it would somehow create some sort of ko. So was asked that I'm being now by a wedding. It's it's a couple that's not what's can I give them to wine? Can I not give them the wine? Because in the event that there's a problem when a m touches the wine and creates the how am I supposed to do it? I'm supposed to give them the wine. I'm being miss I'm facilitating here. So if that's the case that too should be so in the event that we're going to treat the is like as relates to this this is going to create a lot of very interesting again here's the question is like is that unlike many other areas in or maybe it's like some of the other areas where we see clearly that a woman is really not treated like and says like this if you think about it for a minute let's roll up our ya sleeves for a minute that's at the end of the day the we're learning I think if you think about it for a minute there would be a very strong argument to make that even if you tell me that in maybe even in most areas of we treat the like but at the same time maybe should be different a very very strong compelling argument could be made and that is we saw from learning the sugis that there's really two reasons two ideas that underpinned the the severity of number one is this pagan custom that once upon a time with the flick of a wrist the pagans used to pour a little bit of to their but that we know already who brings from the who found that said already in the times of the times of the people weren't doing this anymore and as a result every should not be treated worse which in the worst case scenario would mean that the wine is but and if you ask like which is the so as it relates to the unless we know for a fact that someone is not only a but he's like a pagan right so this is something that's sort of been off the table already for over a thousand years. The other idea that underpins the whole ismos it's but this is where it gets interesting because is not let marry the daughter of but you're allowed to marry the daughter of Shabas. You're allowed to marry the daughter of a mumak. you're allowed to marry the daughter of even a woman in there's no visor might be different but we're not talking about now because we're going with the premise that the person sitting around our pes table is not a gal in some temple somewhere right so that's probably not what's going on here but who in the words of the is someone whose daughter if you wanted to marry you'd be allowed to marry and if that's the case so what would be the problem what would be the problem. So from a problem perspective, it should be for sure no issue. You're worried about already address that. That's not something we're worried about. And brings it, but for sure it's so not even a question. You worried about there's no is for sure with regards to as relates to this in of itself is not a problem. Now I just want to be masid as a drop better we went through that it's that the of was instituted because of right that's the of was instituted that's the when the days that is and the parish of so all the speak out places is each reach with his but all the said the same thing there the was just coming to explain why gave the severity why they gave it to all the things and they're when it comes to all said that it's that point that the was addressing and the answer to that is because it's a par of a par once it's also we're going to give it the as well meaning the ismos the reason it gets the of in contrast to other things that are also is related to the say it one more time in a better were it not for the kazal would have never created an institution known as I there's always that maybe the was it's and it's not enough of it's not enough ofash to create a parish of that's once however it's now we're ready we're going to leverage of that's enough to take something that's already and to upgrade the to say that you're going from from a category 2 to a category 1 that it's able to do but to go ahead and create the that in of itself would be able to do. So really what underpins the whole what underpins the whole is the whole part of the is just the reason that it gets upgraded from just an to even an but if you would not have the underlying issu deck of cards would fall and you would end up with no isser at all. I still a issue is just why it wants it's aer why it's so aer that it's even going to be but the is related to I want to speak on one other thing that I think is worth mentioning and that is which is the most modern case because people today are not drinking so the more case today is that it's related to stating that it's partial that without the is without the isnos there would have not been an iser that if a touches a yid's wine that this wine should be okay we know the underlying how do we know it's says that wasn't enough of a reason to institute the that's why we need is not enough of a reason to make but no that's why we need no one ever said a word about as it relates to that what's there I don't even know what is touch my wine all of a sudden in this I buy his wine I'm going to drink it with him but my wine what does it have to do with stating that I think it's posh that we're not for saying we're not You would have never had that. Why state number one? Because if that weren't the case, then every should beer without because you would assume the guy touch the wine, right? Didn't the guy touch the So when the guy touches my wine, it's a problem without then when he touches his wine, it should be the same exact thing, right? I think that's posit. I think that's but it just doesn't make sense that we would be concerned about that. Maybe he was my wine when he touched it. But somehow his own wine that is is a you don't have to be it's only enough to upgrade it from it's untenable. You have to say that and was related to Kasmos and once there was Kasmos they said oh now we have to ready be concerned for Yay. When they went and made that move they took that leap of faith and they said that even though we weren't really concerned about Yay. Even the flick in the wrist we weren't concerned about but now that there's an isser we're going to use it. We're going to use it and invoke it to make this from being to being. So now we're ready. We're starting TO BE FOR WE WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT without a little tricky but now this we are because it's enough of a to make it from being once we're worried about being now when he touches my one we're going to be worried about it as well it's like all one big plug that's what's going on over here meaning there was once something called then said you know something just like all these things are a problem I mean this should be a problem as well when they saw that's a problem they said one second this is going to This is not going to be let's make this. Right? That was now I don't want this to be and this not to be let's make it. So they upgraded this. I said one second. Why you making it? Because you're worried. Maybe they will but if he touches your wine you're not worried that should be too right. Anything else you want to right? So let's make that. That's the way this whole thing evolved. Here's the bottom line just driving it at one pointing a little bit but coming down to one point and that is what underpins the whole issue is really it's saying if that's the case there would be a m to that he could be a mark we know he's not a full-fledged guy yet and being that he is a even if this other we treat him like a guy COULD YOU MARRY HIS DAUGHTER COULD YOU BE HIS OF COURSE YOU CAN HAVE A fry There's nothing wrong with that. IT'S SOMETHING YOU'RE ALLOWED TO DO. RIGHT? So if that's something that's so you don't have the underlying if you don't have the underlying problems are suddenly not problems anymore. Forget about it doesn't start it doesn't get on to first base because the foundation of all the OF ISM AND IF THERE'S no there should be no. So really based on that if you're going to think about this logically again this is so you know transcends logic sometimes but the point is mean this of what governs but from a pure perspective it would make perfect sense to think that the whole issue of one should not apply to Israel that would be the the very very glat approach. What's the flip side? What's the lambda going to tell you? L's going to tell you it's very nice for it's you finished, right? You want to come off a breath. You want to exhale. It's a great piece, but he's a guy. A guy. He's a guy. He has a dinner. I don't know what you want from my life. Don't get me wrong, right? Take a drink. But uh of wine, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, he has a touches. IT'S EASY AND in many areas YOU WANT TO CLAR IT'S VERY NICE BUT don't me out of it because at the end of the day it's NOT that touches wine or produces wine this wine is now all of a sudden a problem based on all the that we're learning now and if he throw if he checks off one of those four boxes is considered at the end of the day his wine is going to be a problem. This is the 28 minute setup. So what's the bottom line? What's the bottom line? Right? What is the bottom line? So it's a long-winded introduction to a pretty straightforward answer is in it's interesting. It's actually not in it's in what's going on in so it's discussing different related to people that are if you're on this, how does it relate to that? on that how does it relate to this? So in the world of which is a very general global discussion brings who quotes who said that he heard from the I'm just going to read a few lines. We don't have to go into these lines but this the piece that we need is inside these lines. So again who said if someone's he goes from place to place when he's in the city with so when he's in Rome he acts like a Roman and he goes ahead and he worships but then you know when he comes to he enters he gets a shy and he says says that he heard from the how do we treat this guy? So this is how we treat as long as when he's by the he says he's aim we assume that he's aim meaning we're going to assume that what he tells the Jews is his true essence not what he's telling you ready for this line AND SAID AS A RESULT it won't make this guy we're not going to treat him like a m that has the ability to the reason is She wakes up in the morning as being right. We assume it's so if this person right now is like a because he's saying he believes in but he's also saying he believes in incious. So we assume that when he's believing he's just doing it to satisfy. This is what said this is what the he but if someone's or if he doesn't believe in this person's going to be a min and his y is going to be. So what you see in this quoting comes from the and brings it is that if someone is a or he's he doesn't believe in the words of this person his wine is going to be treated like the wine of and all the that we're learning right here are going to have to be applied. Now if you're going to go through this a little bit better and that is the fact that wine should be treated like that's not such aesh is not such also it's rooted a little bit in those in the beginning and if you want to go through it we'll be learning before you know it but as it relates to and really just the whole that is the bottom line is is that you have this idea that his wine is going to be treated like wine of now the truth is like this we're going to keep the rabbite short now but there's there's really a whole another direction we can go with this now and that is okay so what does that mean we got it right it was a long-winded introduction But you know a very short punch line and that is at the end of the day who brings oh and by the way the docu quotes this as well right here in the who's the in one of his on he quotes it as well. So really the also known as the also known as the and the also known as the all three quoted. So the quoted and if that's the case there's really very little wiggle room here. So this is something that's going to be an issue which would mean that if there's a that's not even if he's that immediately would create a problem stating that there were many truas that were written by in the last 200 years. You named the Meshv, he wrote a tru on this that addressed something that was very very prevalent as we know in the 1800s early 1900s where they were yidden that were mitzvah but they were being and the reason they were is because they believe that they were whether they were or weren't that's not for us to decide but the reality is is these were that were they were being shabas and they were being for a lot of these the stories how they would only be and different things that they took upon themselves in their own little way to show that they weren't denying the fact that but at the same time what they were doing was and it was and the question was so how do we treat all these is one of the four categories mentioned in where and specific specifically as it relates to wine how we going to treat it and for this there were many chuas from Israel that were written some of them are very very famous some of them we've gone through together in the most famous truv that was written on this topic was written by wanted to be and he wrote a chuva because this was quoted as many times as you could possibly quote a chuva and any chuva after the bign wrote this chuva that was written on this topic Vincent there isn't one chuva written on this topic that doesn't quote the and if it's not don't look at that chuva because that means he he forgot the most obvious and the most basic this went down as most basic by the way even the ones that were on the and he did not agree with one word that the bigny said and he let you know it but he quoted the because you have to quote it you cannot quote this beyond it became like the brace in the soya it became part and parcel you can't discuss this without discussing the vin and really the bin said three things one thing that said was he says that today being that it's of all these people that are being shab so it's a little bit like who's amazing but he's not amazing that was one big limus the other limus that said was that why is you treated like a guy so rashi says in it's because shabas and really it's the sug that we're learning now tomorrow's great It's because someone that's uh Shabas, it seems that he's not just not keeping Shabas, but he's denying the foundation and the principle that underpins Shabas. What's Shabas all about? That created the world for six days and on the seventh day rested. Well, if you're Shabas, you're denying that. Then the question is why again, this is nothing. That's a whole another. But the bottom line is that on Shabas and aid that makes even if he's afterwards he's for but at the same time how could you say how could you say he denies my separation this was the greatest that the said and then the other said which is the biggest of the three that he said the most applicable and that is he said to me once upon a time the and then things happened and hcala secularism and it changed the way the Jewish nation would look. But at the same time, although that first generation were people that knew what it meant to be a and they were about but their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, they're ready as a and there's no way in the world you could treat him like a either way. This was a big that said another huge in the was and this is in he said that we know that a person can't be considered walking to be and say that we saw him meet or we saw in he swore falsely right you need said such a beautiful heres he said if you can't make a guy unless two Adam walk Right. We've spoken out and can't be made on an ish to say it is on an ish. Right. That's why you need two people to say you can't pass a person unless you have to. So to say THAT HE HAS A YOU COULD do that because of whatever. SO IF TWO OF THEM WALK into and they're made that he was or he was or he's or that they saw him violate 611 mitzvah then but otherwise not so came with a tremendous and he said that this could another big that the bas worked with this very much comes from a and that is that if someone's but if his rabbi was there right if it was under rabbitical supervision If his rabbi was there, he would be afraid to be shabas, he doesn't have this who says that the only time a person becomes is if he is in he's but if it's not quoted this the bottom line is there's a lot of different a lot of ways to try that were written by chu that are that are brought down So again when you talk about someone today who's a m if he's a for sure you have the now just to be clear those troops were written primarily about that but we're being I don't think that's such a I think today the sh is going to be more someone that doesn't keep at all now he's probably not a he's probably not a certainly not in the sense but he's probably not a des he's What he might be is he's someone that doesn't keep mitzvah. So again, you have to know which one of those are are going to help you sounds like he's going to help you, right? The end of the day, you need to walk at the best and you have to be that he's a someone's going to walk at the best and is not going to accept his testimony. It's not something you have to worry about, right? So that's I mean the first two as far as does that help you today? I don't know if Mut is going to help you, but the the person that is dealing with this is is you'd have to stretch the imagination a little bit to come up with that. The fact that he's making that's na right that's not applicable but that's true for like a second generation third generation first generation that grew up in a from house and today's not from anymore that's not really going to help you for second is not going to help you that if you saw your rabbi that's I don't know if that's in other areas in I'm not sure this is above my pay grade but the bottom line is there there were many truths that were written about the ms more applicable to people that were for but they were keeping other for that there were many many as it relates to everything else not so the bottom line is the issue is a problem right this issue is a is a is a problem and who touches wine that's at first glance we're dealing with an issue over here now is it is not worse than a guy the worst case scenario we know that you to be if you prefer and say that today is like the worst case scenario that is like grabbed but not but if you would want to drink the wine then for sure this in itself would pose a problem but I just want to tell you two things the first is just read through one paragraph and you'll decide the says like Ready. This man is I would you would think his wine should be so that we mentioned earlier I don't know what the basis would be to go ahead and answer says didn't mention MENTIONS BUT THAT'S POSIT THAT IT'S A PROBLEM BUT WHAT ABOUT HE DIDN'T MENTION BUT HE WAS A MALAR. So what does the hold if you would ask? Does it sound like he's giving you a little bit of a I don't know. Not sure. You decide it, right? And the rabb doesn't bring it. brings a scall for sure the is that there's a not that it's per se but maybe as a sniff for sure but I'll tell you something that's even more fascinating and that is in this is this is what's going on over here you have somebody that's a this is the sh that he was discussing but as say the truth has nothing to do with any type of who goes now and he touches wine. How you going to treat this wine? So I'm going to read the second paragraph. You ready for this? Cotton base. You ready? That's why when we mentioned the we said it's the we said that is the and by the way doesn't bring the but even though the dark said it this is what you need to be for if the didn't bring it in the and the didn't bring it in the and the dark didn't bring it there it's alert. It's It says Moshe MEANS IT WASN'T. NOW, WHY DID they bring it? They're bringing it cuz you should know but forgot to bring it in the and forgot to bring it in who brings every important addendum and caveat in what it comes to every how did he forget TO BRING THIS IN? HE BROUGHT WHEN HE'S BEING MASSACRED AT HE KNEW THE THEY ALL had sweet on this. How come nobody brought it says This is what it means. This is places that even though there was such a meaning was learning up this that when these guys That's what he's trying to say. That's that's his point that he brought it and everyone BROUGHT IT BUT AT THE END OF the day it wasn't her life was brought down. Why is it not brought down? Because it's not there was such a custom that's fine. There was such a custom a lot of customs. There's nothing wrong with that. Then has a whole paragraph. Okay, once it's a minute maybe you have to keep it right. Maybe we're going to get involved in all that. So says the doesn't qualify as such a here's the last paragraph that it was never really us. All it was was a mic. He comes out this is his bottom line. He comes out that if you want to be you can be me and many many troubles talks about this the landmark that he wrote on the topic is inf it's ina it's inf and he also comes out with a not he's being of things but one of the big that he's working with is that he holds that this that we treat like is a that's an interesting thing this is is the if you look it up he says that is that a dinda or is that a dindraon and he comes out that it's only a dindraon he's mafal and it pages long but he comes out you know with his incredible awesome vikas that really all it is is a draon the whole fact that we're dealing that is treated like aon and itself is only and there you know with some of the that we mentioned earlier the so his outcome is that for sure there's Malak throw in the throw in the fact that if you have aid that's not from you're trying to bear by the way you're not trying to bear you're trying to be in this one but again it's not for the faint of heart but it's in but when he brings the I don't have it in front of me but his lion is with his great he said things but he says I don't agree with the things that he said but of course appreciating where the was coming from he was trying to save. He was trying to save a dur from the huska and he felt he had to put up fences and boundaries way above my pay grade. But you just see the two approaches not just in how you treat ashu but just a a world view between and some of the other but the bottom line is is that held that the whole thing was a minute put it out there that he's not sure. So again what's the bottom line? The bottom line is it's a it's all quoting. So what are you going to do? You going to argue? Who's going to argue? You can't argue. So, it seems to be open shot stating that there's clearly a that underpins this. Ask your local rabbi. But just in terms of getting a little bit of appreciation and the cherry on top as it relates to is epic truth. There's more to talk about is Hashem and uh we'll get