Chulin 19

Today's daf is Chullin daf Yud Tes, and we are 11 lines from the bottom of daf Yud Tes amud Beis, Reb Shimon ben Lakish. Today's daf is being learned as a zchus refuah shleimah for Eliezer Yeshaya ben Brocha. Today's daf is also being learned l'iluy nishmas Binyomin ben Reb Pinchos and l'iluy nishmas Menachem Mosha ben Avrohom. So, we're moving along here in the first perek of Maseches Chullin, dealing with the technical halachos related to shchitah. Specifically, the five halachos l'Moshe miSinai that govern shchitah, specifically hagromah. So, we mentioned yesterday that the shortest definition of hagromah is the place on the konah end of veshet that the shchitah needs to take place. So, shchitah means where roiv of the two simanim of the animal were severed with a sakin in a specific way. The simanim being the konah, the trachea, the veshet, the esophagus. But, it's not like the entire konah or the entire veshet is a makom that's kasher l'shchitah. Mekomo is mekomo is yesh, and you have to make sure that you get it in the right place. Meaning, the konah is a tube, the veshet is a tube. There's a part of the konah that can be too low, a part of the konah that could be too high. There could be a part of the veshet that's going to be too high. There could be a part of the veshet that's going to be too high. The Mishnah that we learned on daf Yud Tes amud Aleph discusses specifically the konah, no mention about the veshet, and it discusses specifically the high point. Meaning, what would be considered too high and what would still be considered within bounds of where exactly >> [snorts] >> the shchitah is allowed to take place. Another thing that we saw very much in the Mishnah was that there was a machlokes R' Yehudah and the Chachamim whether you need the entire shchita to be in the right place or whether as long as roiv of the shchita was done in the right place, even if at the end the shochet, quote unquote, colored out of bounds, it could be that would be okay. The Mishnah was discussing the tabas hagdolah, which l'chola deos is considered an area where one is allowed to do the shchita. The Chachamim said that the tabas hagdolah is also the max point in terms of the top of the corner, how far you're allowed to go, and as a result you have to make sure that 100% of the shchita is going to be within that tabas hagdolah. Because to the extent that even a little bit will cut through the tabas hagdolah, if you're not going to be shayer milui achud al pnei kulah, in that instance the shchita is going to be possul. Because once you go above that tabas hagdolah, at that point you went outside of the bounds, and it's critical that the entire shchita be within the area that it's supposed to be. R' [snorts] Yehudah in the Mishnah says that I agree that you can't go above and beyond that tabas hagdolah, but at the same time, as long as you leave over milui achud al pnei ruba, that's going to be okay. Because to the extent that most of it is intact, that would mean that most of the shchita took place beneath it, which would mean that most of the shchita took place in a place that the shchita is allowed to happen. Oh, you're worried about the milui that happened over there? R' Yehudah says ruba k'chula, as long as roiv of it happened in the right place, so the fact that a milui of it happened in the wrong place, that in and of itself is going to be fine. Now as it relates to the ikar machlokes between R' Yehudah and the Chachamim, feels like a long the sh'machlokes, according to the Chachamim you need the entire shchita to in the right place. It's my speak that if it is going to be in the right place. She does for this predicated on Rubik Rubik is a cloud that permeates the entire shots. I come and don't hold the Rubik so the is in the is going to be the topic of the majority of today's stuff. It's a quite long distance discussion as far as it's going to go. It's from the more long distance that one learns but that's something that we're going to have to wait a little bit until we get to it. The first part of today's stuff is actually a continuation of where yesterday's stuff left off and that is going back to another point that is very much before in the mission and that is in the mission was before that the high water mark as far as how high on the corner one is allowed to chef. The answer seemed to be the and that seems to be true according to the and according to the is what happens if you sever the little bit of the top of the so a little bit went according to the being that is that the entire to be in the right place that's going to be a problem going to be a is only the right to be in the right place so as long as of that is intact that's going to be okay but and agree. They have some common ground in this mission and that is that the is the area where if you would go above that it's already going to be too high. Now what's on top of the so let's take a step back and just over very briefly the anatomy and the physiology of the trachea of the animals. Again, the trachea is a tube that connects the throat to the lungs. We'll see a lot more about that in some of the coming this is literally just the the appetizer as it relates to understanding the insides of this animal, pun intended. But, the trachea is a long tube and it was surrounded, encircled by cartilage. These cartilage were referred to by Hazal as tabois. Why tabois? Cuz just like a tabas goes around the person's rings, so too the cartilage went around the trachea. It went around the corner. Now, most of the cartilage was shaped like a horseshoe. They didn't go around 100%. Not just that, there's little tissue that separates cartilage from cartilage. So, as much as, yeah, you look at the the trachea, you see just stacked up cartilages, but at the same time there are tissue that are separating the different cartilages. On the top of all these tabois, there's one tabas that's bigger. There's a tabas. This tabas, number one, is higher, meaning the of it is more. Additionally, it doesn't just encircle it like a horseshoe, it actually encircles the entire thing. On top of that tabas, there's a hat, there's a capeluche. Now, is it really a capeluche? No, but it looks a little like a capeluche, a little like a shtreimel, and there's something going on over there. It has a slant, it comes to the top, if you look at it in a granular way, assuming you're not squeamish. So, there's a lot of things that are going on there, but high-level it's what Hazal referred to as the koiva. That's what's on top of the tabas. From the mission, it's that that the koiva, even though it's part of the corner, but that is for sure not a and if somebody would check there, for sure that would be considered a gram. So, the top point that you're allowed to go to is tabas. Now, to be clear, you can go beneath the tabas. How far beneath? I don't know. The mission didn't mention a word. We had a little bit of a discussion in yesterday's which was what would be if somebody checked it on the instead of beneath the The reason was a was cuz those don't encircle the entire corner. So maybe you can look at it as a part and parcel of the corner to such a degree that if somebody would go ahead and somebody would do the there, it would be okay. But that was more the of the but that general area if somebody would do the in the tissue that separates those as for sure that something would be okay. But again, what we need now for the first part of today's is that in the and the again the is a very that we're going to get to. But in that it's that the highest one can go on the corner in order for it to be considered the is Once [snorts] you go on top of the what's that called the at that point I don't care if it's the bottom of the I don't care if it's the top of the I don't care if it's what again refer to as the of or what again refer to as the of the or as we'll see what refer to as the of the These are all names we'll be a little more familiar with in a minute. It doesn't matter. Once you go above the of the of the at that point this is going to be an issue stating that despite the fact that just based on the recap that we just did which was really yesterday's There were two that we saw in the world of and both of them have been seem to be of the opinion that the highest you can go on the corner for it to be a is the area that's the but if you go to the it's not going to be okay. We're going to start today's with literally I didn't count but like in the It's going to be a bullet point style with this was matter in this part of the and that later matter in that part of the and And the question that's going to jump off the page after the introduction is all these are right. It's very nice. You have opinions, but unless your name is Rav, you're not allowed to be right like with a Tana. So, how exactly could there have been all these shitas are my own? The answer's going to have to be there's no other way. The answer's going to have to be that there's another Tana somewhere tucked away that is of the opinion that you actually can go higher than the Tabasac oil. Now, who's that Tana? So, we didn't learn the whole tractate yet. So, we don't know. But, here's the little suspense that we're starting today's with and foreshadowing. And that is that Tana was actually a Tana we did see in yesterday's stuff. Wasn't furnished in yesterday's stuff, but there is a Tana that we actually saw we omitted from the introduction on purpose, but there is another Tana in yesterday's if you have the now and you look out for it, that will be the basis for what this other shita is. Either way, with that elaborate introduction, the holy Gemara 11 lines from the bottom of the tractate. The Gemara said actually the cover. The Gemara said that the letter even on the that's the that's all the way to the top of the of the hat of that cover that's on top of the cover cover of the tractate. The Gemara said this is this is all. You're going too far. Right, what is this? It's from the gas, right? You're going too far. The first way to say I'm okay with you going beyond the Tabasac oil, but all the way to the of the hat, that already is not okay. The Gemara said the Gemara said in the name of the Gemara in the event that the was the Gemara let's see what that means in the >> [laughter] >> hidden of the cover, it's going to be a So, what exactly the are these are some cartilages that again inside the cover that part of the Kanna. Hitti literally means wheat. We refer to them as strands of wheat just describe them. They're obviously shaped somewhat like strands of wheat. Right, just notice the terminology that the Hazal use. You always find this in these types of scientific Amoras. The hat, the wheat. I mean, we're dealing with the inside of an animal. But either way, said R. Pappa in the name of the great Rava that in the event that the Shait was Puga in the Hitti Treifus Treif. He would have had an issue with that. He had a Shaila. When Rava, R. Pappa as quoting Rava said Puga, what did he mean? Puga V'Noga Hen? Did he mean that if the Shait was Puga and he touched it? Now, where do you find that Puga means to touch? The Pasuk says Vayifka Boy V'Yomes. Over there the context says Vayifka Boy with a sword. So, you see that Puga means to actually touch. So, essentially what we're saying is that in the event that it was Puga V'Noga, that's when it's Treif. But let's say he went Ad V'Lo Ad B'Chlal. He went right underneath the Hitti. It's going to be okay. I don't know if it's Puga V'Lo Noga. Maybe the word Puga actually means that he was Puga but he didn't touch. What's the Makarta D'Akita S'Vaifku Boy Malachei Elokim? The Pasuk over there means that the Malachei Elokim, right, they met uh Yaakov. It means they bumped into him literally? No, it just means they they met. They encountered, right? So, Vayifka you find sometimes can mean literally touch, Puga V'Noga. And Vayifka could sometimes mean Puga V'Lo Noga. You just encountered. L'Mayna Nafkamina, if R. Pappa Mishme D'Rava said Puga V'Hitti Treifus means Puga V'Noga, that means that it's right underneath it's going to be fine. If what he meant when he said Puga V'Hitti Treifus means Puga V'Lo Noga, that means even if you're Puga V'Lo Noga it's not okay. You would have to be a little bit lower than where Puga V'Lo Noga is. And the Gemara just leaves this as a Shaila. There's no Pshitas on the Shaila. It might be Pappa Mishme D'Rava. So, the first Memra was Amara Pappa Mishme D'Rava. The second Memra is Amara Pappa Mishme D'Rava. We know R. Pappa and R. Pappa were not the same person. They were both Talmidim of Rava. That's why you have R. Pappa Mishme D'Rava and R. Pappa Mishme D'Rava. rubbers like this one right here. But they're not the same person. In fact, in this case, rubber puppy mish made of rubber seemed to have a different messiah. He said that you know what rubber said? Shear b'cheetik shera. That in the event that the shochet when and he actually did the cheetoch, he did the shrita in the cheeti. But he didn't do it on top of all the cheeti. He was meshayer a little bit of the cheeti on top. That in itself is going to be kosher. In other words, you allowed to be pogga. You could even be even be pogga of a nogga, right? You could even take the stringent position of pogga and it's still going to be okay. As long as you don't go on top of the cheeti. So if you meshayer above of the incision a little bit of cheeti, that in itself is going to be okay. Amora Amemar bar Maryanuka. So Amora Amemar, who was the son of Maryanuka, said have came to come here to come here to come here to come here. I was once standing in front of here to come here to come here to come here to come here. He told me shear b'cheetik shera. Same shear the same thing that Amora Amemar said in the name of rubber that if someone is meshayer cheeti, it's going to be okay. Amora Amemar Amora Amemar Amora Amemar Amora Amemar Amora Amemar Amora Amemar Amora Amemar told me that Amora Amemar Amora Amemar Amora Amemar that Amora Amemar came to Amora Amemar start this Amora Amemar talking Amora Amemar Amora Amemar Amora Amemar and he said shear b'cheetik shera. So another shear that holds shear b'cheetik shera. Amora Amemar Amora Amemar said pogga b'cheetik [laughter] shera. If someone is pogga b'cheeti, it's going to be kosher. Shear b'cheeti however, he was shear b'cheeti. At that point, treifa it's going to be a treifa. The hilchos of what's the halacha? Mishipoy choyva ulumato shera. As long as the shrita is done from the place where the choyva starts slanting upwards and beneath it, then it's going to be okay. But if it's above the area where the ship choyva is, then it's not going to be okay. So, you want to know what the cut-off line is, pun intended. It's the shippoy koidivah. So, if it's above the shippoy koidivah, this is a problem. If it's beneath the shippoy koidivah, it's going to be okay. The haynu zok the way the shabbos you want to know which one of the shitas it stems with, it's not pug of a nog, it's not pug of a nog, it stems with shabbos because where the shippoy koidivah is is like smack in middle of the or it's at least at the point where if you do the incision there, there'll be a little bit of on top, which is the maximum in terms of how far up you're allowed to go. We're not done. Rav Nachman said Rav Nachman said that you want to know what the sheer is koidivah ulamat. He said, I don't understand what's going on over here. And this is the question that we preface the with. He said the like a like this is not like the it's not like the we made a big deal about this. In the we had two of them and both of them seem to hold that the of so how old of a cure of Nachman said that really this is the of asked Rav Nachman Rav Rav could have asked any one of the aforementioned whether it was whether it was in the name of whether it was in the name of whether it was a by Rav Rav look at all the names we had over here. We had we had Rav we had Rav too so many names of that all seem to say this. Now Rav Nachman is Rav Nachman as we're about to say. But I mean we know that already, but we'll see it in this is one of the that Rav Nachman is Rav Nachman. But the bottom line is so Rav Rav turns to Rav Nachman he tells him I understand what's going on over here. He said it doesn't sit well with the now Rav Rav he told him I know like he looked at Rav Rav so this is a Rav Nachman phrase by the way, take a look at the Rav Rav he sends you to the Rav a little bit of a remake in what's going on over here. But the bottom line is he said I don't know I don't know be like is He said I don't know from the rabbinate I don't know for names. So I don't know about this and this be like right it's an expression. I know add this to your list of names and that is that is from the elements is going to be okay even though it's on the top of the even though it doesn't with it doesn't matter in either way it's going to be okay. So was asked the question I understand you you're not like the rabbinate and you're not like is it listen I don't know from I don't know from be like by the way I don't know right I don't know from I don't know be like I'll tell you what I know I know or some say it was others say it was that it's okay. So if that's the case what do I care for state in the mission there's no one that we just mentioned all those names I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know that has the credentials to argue with the mission so at the end of the day question still stands how do you answer the question I know I know you you're co-signer needs a co-signer or what kind of answer is that if you told me I know a mission I know you know the maybe all three of them can't go they can't go so speaks that and it's really based on the next speaks to that right here. So we're going to follow his lead. And that is if you remember in yesterday's on the very bottom of you continue to that discusses the the price is said for a tiny bit, Rabbi Yosi Rabbi Yehuda has shchitas b'shaar tabois, af al pishra im Akiva says kol hakona, chulu Akiva says reva kona shchitaso k'sheira. Rabbi Yosi Rabbi Yehuda holds ruba k'chula in the laws of shchita, and as a result, if somebody would shchet on one of those lesser and lower tabois, it would be okay. The mishna then continued and said, "Umu gramas psula." The mishna said that "Mugremas is going to be passul." Rashi said, "Mugremas psula is not a continuation of Rabbi Yosi Rabbi Yehuda, but rather mugremas psula is shitas hachachamim." And the chachamim hold that in the event that a little bit of the shchita went too high, you don't say ruba k'chula, then it itself is going to be okay. Then there was a third shita. Hey, Rabbi Chanina ben Antignus, al hamugremas shichshe. Rabbi Chanina ben Antignus shus mayid that if the shchita was mugremas, it's going to be kosher. Zogt the Hilger Rashi, and it's really based on the next kumara we're going to see inside. Rabbi Chanina ben Antignus was arguing not only on what was mentioned one second earlier, "Umu gramas psula." He was arguing on what Rabbi Yosi Rabbi Yehuda said. In other words, what Rabbi Chanina ben Antignus is saying is that what the chachamim hold is mugremas, I hold is kosher. And what Rabbi Yosi Rabbi Yehuda holds is mugremas, I also hold is kosher. Now, to say what the chachamim hold is mugremas, I hold is kosher, could just be shitas Rabbi Yosi Rabbi Yehuda, right? I hold that you say ruba k'chula when it comes to hagrama. But he's saying also that what Rabbi Yosi Rabbi Yehuda holds is hagrama, I hold is k'sheira. What is that? It must be that he holds is an area above the tabas gdola that even if roiv of the shchita happened over there, it's going to be okay. Zogt Rashi, that was the nosh my t'yodana. That's really the shoirish where all these shitas Rabbi Meir Rama coming from. And really when Rav Nachman said that I know of a shmeita, he didn't just mean I know what he said is I don't give a [ __ ] in the mishnah. What he meant to say was came from somewhere. Came from somewhere. Don't look at me as if I'm saying something. The said it. Now obviously after the what the issue was. The issue was that there's a sheet of and that is more maple even the and the only way you could be more maple than is by saying is by saying that you can even go higher and it's not going to be an issue and that's really at the end of the day the that's the issue for where exactly this sheet is coming from. Says the Gemara. This again as we'll see is a Gemara. So we just spoke at a and we really pre-capped and segued this next Gemara. I'm saying he said what the considered to be is going to be with you all day. With and what the and what considers to be is going to be with you all day. Which and that's easy. That's the mishnah. Which that's the we just mentioned. Isn't it possible that was where the was was possible? That's the third sheet in the we have the sheet of and the means side of the side of the side side of the of the versus actually not so Maybe it was only following back set up of the set the mentions first and the set then which actually said is the set and then the So it sounds a little bit you hold is possible. Hey it's possible. Maybe it's only been on the maybe but holds really like Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda. Truth is, if he holds the grace of Rabbi Huda, so he issued this Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda, right? So, why is that a third Shita? But, if you look more carefully in the Brisa, this Brisa mentioned Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda Shita with regards to the Shita of the upper bishop in my sister in my sister in my sister in my sister. Really, the Shita of Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda was mentioned in the first in this Brisa with not the Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda of the Mishnah. It was the other Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda that we spoke a lot about in yesterday's after that. Either way, says the Gamara they could have been a Hava Mina that maybe the Hayed Rabbi Chanina ben Diglossa is going only on the bottom and he's not really being holding on not really being holding on Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda. And if that's the case, he's not really another Shita in terms of where the Makam Hashrita is. Kamashmalan, that's where Rabbi [ __ ] Levi said, "No, Makam is the bottom Shita of Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda. With Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda, Shita of Rabbi Chanina ben Diglossa Makam Hashrita. How do you know? How do you know? How do you know? How do Rabbi [ __ ] Levi know that? Maybe there isn't another Shita of Rabbi Chanina ben Diglossa, which by the way would create a domino effect where all the Amora'im at this point I think we're up to like 15 to 20 names. All the Amora'im's Shitas would all be wiped out. The Gamara says, "In Cain, if that was the case, Hayed all the Amora'im by all the Amora'im here. But, in Dikduk, if it's referring to the last thing, Hayed all the Amora'im on what you just said, Makam is Psula. Hayed all the Amora'im that it's really Shita. Hayed as a my Amora. This sounds like on Shitas Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda, Shitas of Amora'im. The Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda that's Mefurash in this Brisa. The Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda that's Mefurash in the Mishnah. The Shita of Rabbi Yossi Rabbi Huda in the world of Amora'im. Additionally, the Shita of the Chachamim, there's a a bigger Kula. What could the bigger Kula be? The only thing it could be is that you can check even the Maila from even the Maila from the Tabasa Gedola. And this was the basis for all the Shitas of the Amora'im. Just like Rabbi Nachman said it, really all Amora were coming from this place. the Gamara, So what's the correct answer? Why? This is one of the where you see the stature of Nachman. I mean, how many names were mentioned in this of the and being that said usually gets this treatment in the world of right in the Sugios of is right wore a lot of hats, pun intended. But in this Sugya here even regarding the is like and the reason is the and this concludes the first part of today's class. Part two. So the now is going to revisit the between and that is the sheer of Hagroma. Whatever that place is. Might as well keep it simple. The Mishna had said that side of side of that you can't go higher than the Tabas but the discussion was does that mean that even a bit can't go? Or no, Rubik as long as it is done in the right place it's going to be okay. The said very clearly in the Mishna Only time it's going to be kosher is if you didn't touch any part of that top part of but if you cut a little bit you didn't leave over of coolo at that point it's going to be a problem. Basically it says no, just leave over because if it is intact that means happened beneath it. If happened beneath it it means it conformed with the so that in and of itself is going to be okay. That says according to as long as of sheet that in the right place that in and of itself should be okay. According to the Hachamim, you need the entire sheet to happen in the right place in order for it to be okay. The Gemara now is going to bring a very lengthy discussion that is going to get involved a little bit in this machlokes between Rabbi Yosi Rabbi Yehuda and the Hachamim. Specifically, [snorts] the Gemara is going to try to understand the tzir a little bit better. What does that mean? So, we'll see this very much in the Gemara. Additionally, just to set this up a little bit as it relates to the Gemara's discussion of the machlokes Rabbi Yosi Rabbi Yehuda and the Hachamim, we'll see it's going to be a machlokes Rav Huna and Rav Hisda, but it's going to be drum roll tzu lishnas in terms of what Rav Huna said and what Rav Hisda says. This is a classic uh lishna kama lishna basra type Gemara. Right, there's always good news and bad news when you learn Gemara like this. Number one, it's just always a little bit confusing. The good news is the Gemara really repeats itself. So, when you have a tzu lishna type of Gemara, the Gemara is really repeating itself. And the first lishna is coming from this angle, the other lishna is coming from that angle, but in terms of the math and the cheshbon, it's usually just one and the same. You just have to reformat it a little bit per the lishna. Either ways, after the Gemara, Amar Rav Huna Rav Asi, Rav Huna said in the name Rav Asi, machlokes the machlokes between the Hachamim and Rabbi Yosi Rabbi Yehuda in the Mishnah is bishisha shachat shlish. It's talking about where when two-thirds of the shchita happened in the right place, the hegrum shlish, and then the hagruma, the bad part, came afterwards. The Rabbanan say that the Rabbanan hold kulo shchita in b'einan b'tav askada. The Hachamim hold you need to get the entire shchita in the right place. Rabbi Yosi b'disada ruba kulo. Rabbi Yosi Rabbi Yehuda holds ruba kulo. Aval hegrum shlish, but in the event that first the hagruma was done, meaning you started on top, and and then you made your way down. The shachat shlish, even if you got rov of it in the right place, but if you started in the wrong place, divrei Elkal pasul, everyone's going to hold it's pasul. And the reason is the nafka chiyusa, because you need that when rov of the severing of the simanim, which is when the animal dies, when that takes place, you need that it should all be done in the right place. The inner rov of the shchita of the leker, and that's not something in that situation that you are going to have. So, Rav Huna takes the first stab here in the sugiyah. And he said over there in the name of Rav Assi that the machlokes of Rav Yehuda and Rav Shmuel and the chachamim is when rov of it was in the right place and miut of it was in the wrong place, that we knew. But when you got rov of it right first and then the miut basar, that last miut that was done in the wrong place. But if you started in the wrong place and then you made up for it in spades, you ended up getting two thirds of it right, but you started wrong, at that instance it's it's not going to be okay. Why? Said Rav Huna in the name of Rav Assi, it's because everybody holds the nafka chiyusa be inner rov of the shchita. The animal dies when rov of the simanim is severed. So, you need that rov of the simanim, therefore, that's being nafka chiyusa, should be done in the right makom. If you're going to start off two thirds of it is going to be in the right place, so that's rov of the shchita, it was nafka chiyusa in the right way, so that's why there's a shitas of Rav Yehuda and Rav Shmuel that holds it's going to be okay. Are you feared I is wrong? Praise be to Hashem in this world. Chachamim are in this world. We learn up to machlokes a little bit. But the bottom line is that's where the machlokes is. But in the event that the first third of it you got wrong, to the extent that the first third you got wrong, then when you get the second third right, even though you're going to get the third third right also, so at the end of the day you can end up in the same place with the same two thirds, but when it was nafka chiyusa wasn't rov of the shchita, because half of life was in the wrong place and only half of it was in the right place. Everyone agrees that being in the wrong place and therefore if you started off 1/3 2/3 in the right place, it's [snorts] for sure for sure not going to be okay. So let's just speak out a few things before we get more into it. Number one, when we say 1/3 2/3 is right. It's versus me. So we just use 1/3 and 2/3 because it's a neat even number. But at the same time you just need that it should be and me 51% versus 49% or 50 point whatever. Bottom line is that in and of itself would be okay. >> [snorts] >> What is possible in the between and the the way just explained it? Once you have enough and it's at that point the is done. So if the is done, who cares that the last third would be in a place that it's not a right? Meaning if we were forced to pick sides, if we were forced to be between two between I think the way to look at it would be to say seems to be in the right. says that the has to be done in the right place. We know that's the right. Means enough that happens when of it was severed. of it was done what happens after that? Who cares, right? If you go and you chop the animal up in 500 different ways. You put bullet holes through it. Once you do the I mean it doesn't sound like a nice thing to do, but it's okay from a perspective. Doesn't sound like that in and of itself is going to be an issue. So it sounds like for sure would be in the as opposed to would be in the right. That's what it sounds like to me. Because the Why do I care about that last little piece that really is not necessary? What's going to emerge from the Gemara is an unbelievable partial shine in the Gemara. Before reading on this, what's going to emerge from the Gemara is that the >> [snorts] >> actually don't hold of Ruby Kucola. Meaning, we take for granted that the way works is that you rub of the cinnamon and that in it of itself is going to be okay. We're going to see if you learn that this is the between and it's a big if cuz we'll see there's another to learn. But if this is the what's going to emerge then is that all the and all the in the that say of the two definitions of are money of Yehuda. Which of Yehuda? Start learning from that It's that of Yehuda. There's no way impossible shine in the Gemara to reconcile the with the idea of because I feel to the extent of Well, then once you do two thirds or once you do at that point it's possible. Who cares that I did it has no in the world. You can do whatever you want. You can give them one of the traces, all 18 of them. It's going to be fine. If there's a that means the is not done when you the two thirds. And if that's the case, all those Gemaras that talk about in the world of not in in the world of is going to have to be the but anyway, this is the first opinion. This is in the name of The was when you got the two thirds right and then the last third you already did by The is that hold you need the entire to be within the world. For conversation purposes, they don't hold of when it comes to The is not and as a result that in itself is going to be okay. But if you started off with a program, even if afterwards you got two thirds in the right place. Everyone holds it's going to be possible. Everyone meaning even because even though the end of the day you ended up in the same exact place, but the process matters. How you got there in real time is all the difference. The that's why it's going to be an issue. The turn to Rav Huna and he told him. We know was a talent of Rav Huna. Jumps off this next line. Other means right so it's like funny if the would say every single person Rav Huna was a talent of Rav Huna. But we have to know in uh Aramaic vocabulary means pretty obvious that Rav Huna was a talent of Rav Huna. But anyways, he told him I think the Rav Huna could have said just the opposite. The is when first the was done in the wrong place. The first third was done by and afterwards the next two thirds were done right. And he's going to hold that even though the first third was not done in the right place. I feel being that the second third was done in the right place. And the second third is what puts it over the top cuz the second third is what makes the right. Right? The right happens in that middle third. So being that's where the right happens, so it's similar to and it's for that reason it should be okay. So what's so the is this is a critical point. A in the if the esophagus has a little bit of a hole, the sides of renders it a when it comes to the doesn't render it a unless Rav Huna is already severed. At that point it's going to be fine. If there's a that has a half of the is literally it's severed. It's still which would mean if somebody would go and he would he would just put it over the edge. He would knock out that last piece. That in and of itself would be okay. What do you see from here says Rav Chisda that there's an idea this is a that there is a that in the event that a person only gets the piece that makes it right in a that in and of itself would constitute a kosher the when first that grandma was done and then the second two thirds were done. And still the base of you the whole that's going to be kosher cuz as long as that middle third was done in the right way that's what created the right and the right was done in a kosher and even though the whole right wasn't done in the kosher it was just the part that made it right but there's a precedent for that maybe the over there even though the was not done but even that it's a kosher it was just some sort of wound some sort of issue that the animal had but at the same time it was in the right place but but over here love over here it's not in the right place and being that it's not in the right place it's for that reason it's not going to be okay but maybe that's but in the event that you got it right first right the first two thirds were done in the right place and then it was the last two thirds that was done I think the everyone's going to hold this kosher you know why cuz it's a you want to and what are you going to tell me you're going to tell me that the don't hold of Rubik's Cube light it's not possible to so you know what I think I think the is and the when it was and then you got the next two thirds right because to me if you got the first two thirds right I don't care what happens afterwards it doesn't make sense to be a to be an issue the is when you got the first third right now said case everyone who holds is going to be a problem. Why would everybody holds a problem? I don't think it's much to say everybody holds a problem. Maybe they have kind of problem. You see that there's such an Indian. So maybe this is like Okay, so what's the So Rav Yehuda holds this is kind of problem. Whereas the hold that is not because at the end of the day you need the issue. It's at least in the right place. Rav says it has to happen in the right place. Over there it wasn't on the right place. Because the first third was done by Rav. And as a result that's why you're that's why you're going to end up having an issue. But the bottom line is said Rav that Ravuna your is not As a matter of fact I think my is more Why is my more that? The segues into the next part of the is [laughter] because according to you they're arguing where you got the first two thirds right it almost feels like the comes in and say The way I'm learning if you got the first two thirds right everyone's going to hold that's because everybody holds that you hold Rav The is going to be when you didn't have the right that already makes sense that it would be a So the says only Rav Rav told Rav that no. That I know where you're coming from. You're coming from what you just said. I will That's what you think your is better. I mean that's what we all think Rav might be better. We between will be between Rav now. Right certainly sounds like Rav is a little bit better because why make this into a Rav turned to Rav and said I'm not so much Who told you my name alone that who Rav that Rav Rav told me that that says that Rav told me Who told you it's Rav told me Rav told me So who said this Rav told me Rav told me Rav Rav you mean to say that every single time it's Rav in the world it's Rav told me no we gave this away already. I'm not Rav Rav told me not here we know there's a Rav Rav Where do we know the is that mission has a tone but I'll go upon him. Maybe that mission is going a little bit of not so much ball to say that the halacha of Rubashkin has to be there's a there's to say that nobody agrees with that and if that's the case it could be it's only the sheet of Rubashkin but the bottom line is if that's the case the whole umph of sheet of is not and if it's not that's That's why didn't want to learn that way. Didn't want to learn that way cuz like his beer in the better. I the mission of who said it's not I am everybody agrees with. I understand but maybe maybe when it comes to sheet is different. So, let's just do a tiny bit of a recap of which one of which one is going to go very quickly and that is okay. We have a of which one of them in the mission. What would be if sheet was done in the right place and sheet was done in the wrong place would that be or would that not be a problem? According to Rubashkin it's going to be kosher according to it's going to be possible. Rubashkin said in the name of Asif. The names don't matter that the is talking about where the right that you got right is the first right of that you did and it was only afterwards that you were slush. What's the is? The hold you don't say Rubashkin or not. I am going to tell you you do but in sheet you don't. Rubashkin says just like in you say Rubashkin when it comes to you also say Rubashkin. In the event however you were slush and then you were slush being that right of the sheet of the which is what creates the sheet of wasn't done in the right place that's dead on arrival. Everybody holds that that's going to be a problem. Rubashkin said just the opposite. Rubashkin prefaced his comment by saying "Adaraba, just the opposite. I think it's I think that in the event that you got the first two thirds right, everybody's going to agree that it's going to be okay. Because that mishna that says is not Everybody agrees with that halacha. What's the machlokes? It's dafka in the case where you the first third was done wrong and only the next two thirds were done right. R' Nachmani, you said you can't even hear such a tsad that it should be okay Would you forget the braysa Neither have you kind of pogem. You see that if the corner started off with half of it already being pogem, all you need to do is tip the scale and that itself is going to be okay. Ah, you don't have ruba b'shchita over there. So you see that you don't need ruba b'shchita. You just need that the part that makes the right should be b'shchita. Okay, so I'll tell you that's what Now why does it say that at the very least you need ruba b'shchita in the mokem hashchita? You don't need ruba akasher hashchita, but you need ruba b'mokem hashchita. That's something that maybe you don't have to say there, but this mokem to to turn the machlokes is added to us. But I think that's the way it is. And by the way, I like my pshat better because to say that the halacha of ruba which is a klal gadol in these sugias, to say it's a man to me is very very very docha. Either way, this is the first lishna of the lishna acharina, just to give it away, it's going to be the same machlokes of R' Nachmani and R' Chisda. It's just the positions are going to be reversed. So R' Nachmani in the second lishna is going to be of the opinion of what R' Chisda was in the first lishna. And R' Chisda in the second lishna is going to be of the opinion of what R' Nachmani was in the first lishna. So it's the same two shitas with the same cheshbon. We're just swapping the names. Says the Gemara "Amar R' Asi again." R' Nachmani said in the name of R' Asi "The machlokes is dafka with the happened with the first third and then you got the next two thirds right." R' Asi said in the name of R' This is where the whole thing's going to be okay. You don't have but take a look at what do you see from there that all you got to do is tip the scale in the right way. But I'm going to tell you at the very least all of it was in the first half of the whole thing. You don't have all of it but you got some of it first two thirds were got right and only the last third was given everybody's going to hold this discussion. And the reason is that and it's that that mission is going to be awesome. This is the came with this is a man that this is the over here is the question on the first mission. He says who told you that when the mission over there says going to the the only over here is the telling with the what you told in the first mission and that is up to call all of the what do you mean to tell me that every time it says the word in the world that's I'm going to respond and this is the bottom line is the bottom line is the same exact mission all we did was is we flipped the names. Moving along. Without coming out of breath. So we have now a mission with two minutes and terms of who said what. All in a mission with the whole thing. The whole thing. And the whole thing. That discussed two cases of the whole thing. Both had the whole thing cases. In both cases two thirds of the whole thing were done in the right place. One third of it was done in the wrong place. In one of the cases first the two thirds were gotten right and it was the last third that was not okay. The other case, the first third was the problem and the second two thirds were not okay. In the vernacular, shachat shnei shlish, v'higrim shlish, or it was higrim shlish v'shachat shnei shlish. Those were the two cases. The Gemara now is going to bring what would be if he was higrim shlish, v'shachat shlish, v'higrim shlish. Or what would be if it was in the reverse? It was shachat shlish, v'higrim shlish, v'shachat shlish. Sounds like fun. So, we'll see now that this too was debated. This is not a machlokes tanoyim, it's a machlokes Rav Yehuda and the chachamim. This is actually a machlokes amora'im, and this is the very next part of today's sugia. So, the Gemara higrim shlish, in the event that he was higrim shlish, v'shachat shlish, and then it was shachat shlish, v'higrim shlish, and then it was higrim shlish. So, we have them doing the belt. So, we have over here two thirds of hagruma, one third of shchita. It was hagruma, shchita in the middle, and then hagruma. Now, roiv of it was hagruma, that's easy, right? Let's just see if we can conceptualize this a little bit. Obviously, two thirds hagruma, one third shchita, there's no scenario, you can't freeze the screen at any point and have roiv shchita, right? So, this is for sure, once there was a sh- >> [snorts] >> shchita at that point. Again, we're working with two thirds being the roiv, you know, that's not really the roiv. But, the two thirds being the roiv, the two thirds for sure, once you have that majority, you have that roiv, it's going to be roiv hagruma. But, in the nuanced of the case, the shchita was the middle shlish. What's the significance of that? The shchita was what made the roiv. So, roiv of it is hagruma, but what actually made the roiv, what tipped the scale, was the shchita. Says the Gemara, Rav Puna amara, Rav Puna said in the name of Rav Shira, it's kosher. Rav Yehuda amara, Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav treifa, it's going to be a treifa. And the Gemara explains, Rav Puna amara, Rav Shira, Rav Puna said in the name of Rav, it's going to be kosher. You know why? Key nafka kochi you saw bishchita nafka. Cuz Ravuna says, you know what? I care about what tipped the scale. And you want to know what tipped the scale over here? It was a shchita that tipped the scale. I know Rav if it is not okay, I don't care. But my sin, what tipped the scale? It was a shchita. It's going to be fine. Rabbi Yehuda amar Rav Treifor. Rabbi Yehuda said in the name of Rav, that it's going to be a treifa. And the reason is cuz in a ruba bishchita milaka, cuz I don't care about what tipped the scale. I look at the what is the ruba of the situation. And being that ruba over here was a grama, it's for that reason it's going to be a treifa. So as it relates to higrim shlish bishchach achlish bigrim shlish, it's not a machlokes tanam. This is really machlokes amaram. Which amaram? It's a machlokes Rav Huna and Rabbi Yehuda. So before we go weiter and we see the related case of shchach shlish bigrim shlish bishchach achlish, it's the inverse of the of the previous case. There's one very important Rashi and Tosfos, I think that needs to be spoken at. And that is, Ravuna just gave us a halacha. Ravuna said that if it was higrim shlish bishchach achlish bigrim shlish, the halacha is it's going to be kosher. Why is it going to be kosher? Cuz the only thing I care about is what actually tipped the scale. As long as what tipped the scale is okay, that's going to be okay. Now this is not the first time we had Ravuna in the sugya. Ravuna was the mar d'shmaita, one of the two, Ravuna and Rav Chisda in the previous gemara. So let's revisit what Ravuna said in the previous sugya as it relates to machlokes Rabbi Yosi and Rabbi Yehuda and the chachamim, and let's see does this shtim with this Ravuna? It was a very shmair in light of what this Ravuna said. Ravuna in the first mishna said that the machlokes Rabbi Yosi and Rabbi Yehuda and the chachamim was talking about where you got the first two thirds right and only the last third was not okay. If however, the first third was done b'hagrama, even if the next two thirds were okay, l'divrei achairim it's going to be a problem. Cuz b'eina ruba bishchita milaka, that means you need that ruba of the shita and not just what tips the scale, but in a rub of the shita of the lacker. But in a rub of the shita of the lacker. This is the exact opposite of what Ravuna just said. Ravuna said, "Shure enough you use the shita and I don't care about anything else. I just care about when it goes from 50 to 50.01. That's the only thing that interests me." What do you mean? Ravuna was the one that said that there's no way in the world to entertain a possibility that the Rav Yehuda and the are talking about where you were shlish because being a rub of the shita of the lacker. So, how do you reconcile Ravuna here with the first lishana of Ravuna? What about the second lishana of Ravuna? In the second lishana of Ravuna, Ravuna held for good. Ravuna said, "No, the is talking about where you were shlish." He is talking about where you were shlish. Now, according to them, it's not okay. Say, but according to them, it's okay. It's okay. Well, I mean it to have a kind of isn't that a kind of kind of even in the second lishana. I'll leave it to Ravuna said you need shlish the shlish. You need that at the end of the day you get the shita right with the two shlishes. By the way, one of the we did not speak out is actually asked it as a I don't want to ruin the flow of the of the matter. But actually asked it as a that in the lishana according to Ravuna which is the lishana Rav holds that kind of but that kind of all you need to do is that little tiny shita. When it comes to shlish, you need to do two shlishes of a shita. My name is actually asked this question. But the bottom line is that is the The is shlish the shlish which is going to be okay. So, say Ravuna in the first lishana, say Ravuna in the second lishana, say according to Rav Yehuda and say according to the there's no scenario where enough the shita No, it's not true. At the very least you would need that two-thirds of it should have been done the shrita. At the most, you would need the first two-thirds should have been done the shrita. But, [laughter] at the very least, you should need two-thirds. How could it be which by definition means two-thirds of it was done by That in and of itself is going to be okay. There was no sad that that would be okay. So, to answer this question, Rashi says a Rashi is on by the way. But, Rashi says a You know what Rashi says? That it's true. This doesn't stand with who had a third and over here was saying not what That was the fear of the Over here, is saying what he himself holds. And himself held like a third one. Where's there going to be a third in this area? It's the same third mysterious third that we had in the first part of today's It's In in the It was that he was a big maker when it came to the to of here and it meant not only the of the even the partially learned that what does it mean he's being made that it's He's referring to the that part of this over here. Where is the It's not the You can go into the That in and of itself is already going to be okay. I was You know what I see in this here and it was saying on the as it relates to and also with regards to the of Right, this is all part and parcel of the of handling They're not even arguing about that. That's their common ground. But, they're then being they're discussing what would be if two thirds, one third, this was first, that was first. Right, they're getting involved in all this here. So, the Rashi that came in and he said, "I'm saying I'm it meant sign the and it meant also with regards to that means they were more what's that bigger cooler so this was the bigger cooler. All I care about is and even if at the end of the day it's going to be two thirds by one third that in and of itself is going to be okay. Twice this the bottom twice on your desk and I'll bring and he says very Rashi had no right to make that up. I think it's Rashi all the way around that we mentioned all 15 20 I mean around that we mentioned learned that way that's what he meant to tell me that was saying another cool okay so you have a steer in like how do you even give this is where the names matter. When he said his offer to explain the what did he say? I'm going to ask him when he said what he said right here I don't know Rav so this is I think that's the you're right I don't know what was just saying over what he heard from Rav couldn't entertain that side that would be even a who's going to hold he was just going to be over from had a different he held that in and of itself is going to be it's like the as long as you get that last piece right I don't care about what you did before I don't care about what you do after that in and of itself is going to be okay and in light of what heard in the name of Rav you can go back and learn up the between and you could say that maybe the is where he was maybe I'll tell you if it was show and then he everyone holds it's kosher and if it was he was everyone's going to hold it's kosher and maybe the whole machlokes is where it was hegram shlish v'shochat shlish v'hegram shlish. But the bottom line is Tosfos, I think the way you meyashiv this kasha is not by creating another shita d'achtan I think the way you meyashiv it is this is amora d'afuna amora d'afra and this is amora d'afuna amora d'afra either way. So we have where it was shochat shnay shlish v'hegram shlish, we have where it was hegram shnay shlish or hegram shlish v'shochat shnay shlish, we have where it was hegram shlish v'shochat shlish v'hegram shlish. And what's the last case? Shochat shlish v'hegram shlish v'shochat shlish. Again, what happened in this case? It's the inverse of the previous case. Over here 2/3 of it were b'shchita, but the piece that put it over the top was d'agrom. So if you look at the net result, you have rov b'shchita, but if you look at where the rov actually happened, so then already that happened b'hagroma. Says the Gemara it was a machlokes again Rav Yehuda and Rav Huna. Rav Huna amora Rav Yehuda said the name of Rav Sherira is going to be kosher. As soon as she asked Rav Huna Rav Huna they came and they asked Rav Huna the shaila and he told them treifa. It's going to be treifa. So two things. In the first case hegram shlish v'shochat shlish v'hegram shlish it was a machlokes Rav Huna and Rav Yehuda. Rav Huna amora Rav Yehuda said k'sheira, Rav Yehuda amora Rav said treifa. Rav Huna amora Rav said k'sheira why? Because I care about kinas k'yusan it was b'shchita k'naf. Rav Yehuda amora Rav said treifa because I look at the rov. And being a rov b'shchita v'lacha. In the case of shochat shlish v'hegram shlish v'shochat shlish it's just the opposite. Here rov is good then the nafka k'yusan is bad. So Rav Huna amora Rav pasken k'sheira. And Rav Yehuda amora Rav was shitoso. Rav Yehuda amora Rav where rov of it was b'hagroma and being on rov b'shchita v'lacha. Over here it's being rov b'shchita v'lacha. Right? So that's pasha just a very obvious observation before we go back to the obvious obvious observation before we go back there, or I should say the less obvious observation before we go back there, in the first case, it was Rav Huna said Rav Yehuda said in the second case Rav Yehuda said they asked Rav Huna and he didn't say this what I heard from Rav Huna just said but either way. So, there were two cases here Shah at and then Shah at and in both cases when Rav Huna said Rav Yehuda said right they went the opposite. We are it was Rav Huna said I look at you so say Rav Yehuda said I look at going to be a where it was it was not Rav Yehuda said it's going to be cuz it is and Rav Huna said no it's going to be Rav Yehuda. Rav [snorts] Yehuda heard what happened. He heard about this the second story where it was that he had passed in question and then went to Rav Huna and Rav Huna said it got very upset. I'm already said when I said Rav Huna said and when I when I said it sounds like he's literally going out of his way to just fight with me. He's trying to pick a fight. Like what's going on over here? I'm Rav Huna so they went back and they told Rav Huna you know Rav Yehuda is upset. He was he was pretty angry. He thinks that you're chatting with him a little bit. Rav Huna said come he's actually saying good that he's being he said number one he heard that second in the name of Rav. That's where he made the it was Rav Yehuda said where it was Rav I never was from Rav and besides I at the end of the day cuz at the end of the day and Rava was under shrita, he should he should be okay. So Rav Huna says, you know something? I think Rav Huna was right for being right. Number one, he has a mesora from Rav Huna Kamma Slayas. So I'm just saying my own mesoras. He has mesora from the Rabbanan. So of course he's right. He said, besides, in logic, he makes more sense what he's saying. Cuz Rava was under shrita. Now let's hit the pause button. What? I don't understand either one of these tainas. Because really, the shaila of shacha shlisha v'hegram shlisha v'shacha shlisha is identical shaila of hegram shlisha v'shacha shlisha v'hegram shlisha. So if Rav Huna holds kinafka kriusa, b'shrita kinafka kriusa, that's why in that case it's kosher. So where was Also, what's Rav Huna saying? I didn't hear it from Rav. You heard from Rav hegram shlisha v'shacha shlisha v'hegram shlisha that it's treifa. By hearing that, by definition, it's the equivalent of hearing shacha shlisha v'hegram shlisha v'shacha shlisha that it's going to be treifa. Cuz really the two cases are totally the same. So Rav Huna's reaction, really both tainas, is a little bit surprising. And you know who told this to Rav Huna? His talmid, Rav Chisda. I mean Rav Chisda. A lot of names in today's daf. So Rav Chisda turns to Rav Huna and he tells him, "Like the hadaba he says, "Rebbe, don't be choizer. Don't be choizer." Right? This is a Bayan Rav Yosef Ives. He tells him, "Don't be choizer. Dem came, cuz if you're going to be choizer, mast the slave of Kamaisa, you're going to lose your first halacha. Rebbe, I don't want you to lose that. You have this big halacha that says it's over and you're on the news. You're famous truva. I don't want you to lose this. Why? Cuz my time of Kamaisa. Why did you say it's kosher where it was hegram v'shacha v'hegram? after kriusa b'shrita kinafka. Well, if that's the case, it's the inverse. Hachnami, here too kinafka kriusa b'grama kinafka. Then I don't want you to be choizer. Make sure it's Make sure it's going to It's going to be okay. What did Rav Huna hold? Like what was Rav Huna's having meena? The karila makarila. It sounds like his having meena was that he's like very makeel when it comes to shrita. All the others going to be okay. Either kinafka kriusa it's going to be okay, or ruba b'shrita is going to be okay. Rav Huna didn't seem to be so locked in to all I care about is this if it's kind of this choice A this choice B. There's two boxes. If you can check off one of them, you're going to get yourself a good shita. Either it's not that's one way to get yourself a good shita. Or if it's going to be okay, that's another way to get a good shita. But the bottom line is response is very intuitive response. So, the now is going to do what it does here a lot in a few anecdotes related to the shilo. Says the Eclair once came to Sura. They asked the great Nachman Shaka Shlosh Shlosh Shlosh Mao. This is the second because they did I'm a little who. So, Nachman told the Hebrew in Sura of the moment you knew me. Isn't that what Nachman knew me said? What did Nachman knew me said? Good question. Shita Kamastrick. If someone does shita and it's like a mastrick. So, a mastrick means it's a jagged shita. So, it looks like you know, part of it is on a on a line and the other part is out of the line and this part is in the line. So, it looks like the person had a few drinks as he was doing the shita. So, right couldn't cut a straight line. Shira the lock is it's going to be kosher. And Nachman said I I think that what Nachman knew me meant was the shila where you were Shaka Shlosh and then you went out of line you were Shlosh. But then you were Shaka Shlosh and he said it's kosher. So, based on I think it's kosher. But the says the normal shita. Maybe what Nachman knew me meant is that in the shita alone there's an Indian that you would have thought that maybe if the shita is Kamastrick it's possible Kamastrick line it's kosher. How do you know that the part that's out of line is literally out of line. It's not just out of line it's out of bounds. Maybe you're within bounds you just can't walk a a straight line. But the normal shita what would be the what's I'll tell you what I would have thought being a shita maybe you need like a straight clean incision. Kamastrick line that you don't need it. But the bottom line is there could have been a have a minute that's the case. The shult to this is not something you can necessarily do. Moving along. Simin pikot. Yosif Reb Abba Reb Kahana. Reb Abba was sitting behind Reb Kahana. Reb Yosif Reb Kahana came to Reb Yehuda. Again, a lot of names. Reb Kahana was sitting in front of Reb Yehuda. So, Reb Yehuda did Abba. He is giving shiur and Reb Kahana is sitting in front of him, right? K'tanim d'Rosh Hashanah Rav. And Reb Abba is on the second row. He's behind Reb Kahana. Reb Yosif came up. Reb Kahana was asking shailos of Reb Yehuda. First question that he asked him was shachat shlish v'higrim shlish v'shachat shlish mal. What would be if he would shachat shlish v'higrim shlish v'shachat shlish mal. So, without looking in the Gemara, right? Eyes [snorts] closed. So, what would you think Reb Yehuda's response was? We know Reb Yehuda's shitah is we had it already in Amud Aleph. Reb Yehuda says you look at roiv. Amud Aleph Reb Yehuda's shitah says told him shchitah as shirah. It's going to be good. He asked him another question. What would be if his higrim shlish v'shachat shlish v'higrim shlish. What would be in the reverse case? So, again, without looking in the Gemara, you know what his shitah is going to be? Amud Aleph shitah as shirah. Why? Because being in ruba of shchitah v'lecha shachat b'makom nekav mahu. He asked him another shailo. What would be if the konah had a nekav? So, there was a hole. So, again, a vessel that has a nekav dead on arrival. But, if the konah has a nekav, as long as it's up to chatzi, that in of itself is going to be okay. So, what would be if there was a nekav in the konah and then he went ahead and he tipped the scale and he did a shchitah. Is it going to be okay? Amud Aleph shitah as shirah. It's going to be kosher. What's the makor to this? So, we find it very prominently on Amud Aleph. Chatzi konah nekav we know is something that's going to be kosher. Here's the case that's going to take us to the end of the daf. Shachat u'paga b'nekav mahu. What would be in the reverse case? What would be if the shochet was doing the shchitah and when he started shachting the konah, there was no nekav. But, then as he made his way through the konah, all of a sudden paga. Paga b'nagah, paga b'lei nagah. All of a sudden he was paga b'nekav. All of a sudden he bumped in. What's that? A neck of. So, what would be the halacha over there? Now, really to appreciate it a little bit better, we have to learn the next mission. Next mission it says that shchita is done from mitzad hatzavar, right? That's where it's done. It's done from the side of the the throat. Not the side of the neck, it's the side of the throat. So, the case where Rav Kahana understood for sure from Rav Yehuda shok umok an neck of is going to be fine is where the neck of was on the throat side. >> [snorts] >> So, then you just went on the right side, you just tipped the scale, it's going to be fine. But, what would be if the neck of was not on the throat side, it was on the neck side? So, when you started doing the shchita, it was fine, and then all of a sudden, oh, you realize the rest of it is fine. In other words, just to appreciate the nuance a little bit better, in the first case, your my sister shchita tips the scale. Because you start off, you know, at the 50-yard line. Beseder, but you now get it across. In the second case, you start from the beginning. You knock out the first 50%. Then you came to 50%, it was done already. So, being that the kinuf chiyusa ke'ilu, you're not doing, you're not taking that chelek that's above the 50%. Rav Kahana here said that maybe that would be a little bit different. That shachat upog an neck of mout, you want to know what's the halacha on this? He told me the shchita is p'sula. There it's already going to be p'sul. So, either way, this is a conversation that's happening, I'm learning, between Rav Kahana and Rav Yehuda. Rav Abba is sitting very quietly. Me'achele the Rav Kahana, he's the proverbial fly on the wall. He hears all of this happening. In the meantime, Rav Abba Rav Abba walked out of his smedrish umekamei Rav Elazar, and he went to Rav Elazar, and he told him everything that he heard. Um Rav Elazar Rav Elazar went >> [laughter] >> umekamei Rav Yochanan, right? This is like good hack. So, he went to pardon intended. So, he goes to Rav Yochanan, and he tells Rav Yochanan what he just heard. Um Rav Elazar Rav Yochanan told Rav Elazar, "My shna, I don't know everything I heard I understand. The only I don't understand [laughter] is that why is it if it was the market but if it was a burger by naked then already she does it I mom don't understand the so did you hear maybe everyone's talking about this so do you know like a little bit of a distinction a little bit of a terrorist to say I'm a ladies from Yekke told me that Yeah I'll tell you I I think this one is very simple. If you did the of a market naked that's like a case where a guy started doing the the guy my Israel and he finished it that's kosher right sounds like a right but that's actually kosher if a guy would go and we would check half of the corner and then he would tip the scale be fine why cuz it's like the naked which we know I'm sorry which is okay and being that that's okay so there's no reason that this shouldn't be okay either But if you did the and then you bumped into the naked then it's not the guy that sounds like the you didn't up until and then who tipped the scale the guy tipped the scale in other words I see the naked like if does the first part of it and the finishes it it's kosher but if does the first part and the guy finishes it it's not going to be okay that's exactly the way I see the naked so to me at the end of the day I think that's what the is sure that's where he was coming from right cuz what we care about is what tips the scale When it comes by the way it comes to the a little naked makes it a so this conversation doesn't start but again with the corner it's not a trade for that's what I care about I care about where it's not so that's what should be okay so you know you're asking me if I understand you know what I heard from who said over what was going on between I do actually do understand it to me the negative is like the So if you start with it's fine. So if you stop it's going to be fine. But if you finish with it's not okay. So if the finish happens with the negative it's not going to be okay. So he turned to and he responded in a fascinating way. He told him So he said right? Sounds like was literally calling a knife like somebody called somebody a shiksa, right? It sounds like lack of right? Sounds like that's what they said. Literally all of He was being actually made of He said he wasn't calling him an but at the same time he was being What he was telling him was calling him a You're explaining this sack or these two him of by invoking the laws of an He told him as follows. If you would go ahead You could say the word all day every day. But the two reasons are not the same. Why not? Because like is about to explain. But tells is you can tell me that at the end of the day a negative is not So this is going to be So this is the of my explained He said was right for saying Why? This is By the way, this is another example of where you see it seems to be on Remember the line of the by the He But on sometimes he was wicked. This is another Rashi he was wicked all. But the bottom line is, the robber said it's very good what he was saying. Why? Because Bishlam Bishlam in the case of the neck of me the have a lady Israel the Mishkan Ruba. I'm sorry. Bishlam in the case of the Khavan. Being that the year could have should have shaked the whole thing below shaked and he didn't. Kenafke you should be other than Kenafke. So with here we say that if the year would do half of the shaked and then the guy would go ahead and he would make it into a life. It's going to be a problem. Over here nothing. Nicked. Shmishkod Shaked. The Shoyched shaked everything that there was to shaked. Mali Necked. Mali Poga by Necked. What's the difference if he shaked with a neck of already was or when he shaked it was no neck of he was only Poga on the neck. The only time there's an issue with the Khavan tipping the scale is because right now you're in a place where you have to do a shaked. So if you're in a place where you have to do a shaked you better do the shaked. If the guy is going to do the shaked and tip the scale it's going to be a problem. But it's the neck of push is what tips the scale. Well, there was no shaked to be done. Being that there was no shaked to be done, so what would be the issue? As a matter of fact, when you do a shaked you can only reckon the shaked that there is to done. In this case the year did all the shaked. So how in the world could this be a problem? When there's a certain share of shaked that needs to be done then we have to start who did the shaked. And I can't figure out where you so where exactly it took place. And that's why there's a distinction between the guy doing the first part or the guy finishing the job. But in the case of the neck of the gather of the neck of is is that part of it doesn't require a shaked. That scale would shaked me over already. Forget the year did the entire shaked. So if the year did the entire shaked it's portion it's going to be kosher. The case of the guy is way worse. Over there you needed shaked and the guy did the shaked. Over here the neck of didn't bother a shaked. It's not the that the area of the neck of needs a shaked. The neck of is the schita. You're right. What's the difference of a guy that does schita neck of this the schita? Just like hakol shochtin lafuke avke chavam hakol shochtin lafuke neck of. That's pretty obvious. But the guy that did the neck of said Rava and this is what Rav Yeisa meant when he was ligrei gadol and he said he meant to say was is not is is doing a maisa schita. The neck of is not a maisa schita. When does a maisa schita that means it's a maisa schita to be done then you have to make sure it's done by the Israel. But when there's a neck of there was no maisa schita that needed to be done. As a result of that reason it's going to be okay either way. Right? Just what's the recap of the last part of the daf? So we can't go through the whole thing. But the recap of the last part of the daf was we discussed the laws of agrama, not the makam of agrama. That was the first part of the daf. Latter part of the daf is is where you got some of it in the right place and some of it in the wrong place. In the event that you got 2/3 of it in the right place and 1/3 in the right place. So we saw a huge discussion like this in the coming and Rav Huna and Rav Chisda is what Rav Huna holds and what Rav Chisda holds. When exactly they were arguing, what are the cases where it was shach shlish for higram shlish or it was higram shlish for shach shlish for shach shlish. Then we had the latter two cases. The latter two cases were where it was sh higram shlish for shach shlish for higram shlish or it was shach shlish for higram shlish for shach shlish. Kapsuta the two machlokes in are going to be told that is that you go bust the rove so it's rove agrama it's a problem. With rove schita it's okay. Do you go bust where it's you just have to look at the middle shlish. What exactly that was? Stating that we saw Rav Huna who's one of the amairan that opine in this sugia. He actually had it said that that's maybe not the way you look at it. And could be you always are going to go with the koach detairah. So if the middle shlish was a kasher schita that would be be for it to be mutar. And if it was and the was by grandma, it could be it's going to be okay. And then the next discussion was, what would be in the event where you had a corner where half of the corner already had an or half of it had an and there we saw a discussion that's possible if you were in the where the outer part had an and then you just went ahead and tipped the scale that for sure is going to be okay. There's no shaila on that. It's a braisa in the name of Rabbi Yehuda told Rabbi Kahana while Rabbi Abba was eavesdropping, that's something that everybody agrees. Everybody holds is going to be okay. What was a little bit of a shaila was, what would be in the event that the was done not in the place of the but it was by the Rabbi Yehuda had said, possible. Rabbi Elazar understood possible. He thought maybe it was not done correctly. Rabbi Elazar didn't like it. He said it was done correctly. Rabbi Abba said it was done correctly. But the bottom line is again, that was the next case that was discussed and we will stop here.