Ep. 69: Hei Teves 40 Years | A Bochur's Perspective with Rabbi Kasriel Shemtov

It was because the Reb for all those years was drilling into us and teaching us that the is real and the Reb is real and the Reb is with us. So later it was it was it was a language that we were able to understand if not for that time that the Reb drilled into us [music] and that we were involved and and we and we understood it and saw it at least to what our capacity is. that gave us the ability to be able to have a connection today. This year we will be marking 40 years since hey that's 40 years since 1987 the day that the verdict came down that belong to the and that we were victorious the was victorious and much has been said about over the years and it's appropriate that as a hatavis comes we give people the opportunity to experience and to hear what exactly transpired blowby-blow and what it's all about. So in honor of this occasion, we're releasing this special episode with Rabbi Kas Shiv. In this conversation it is four and a half hours or more than that very long conversation and it's really a deep dish was a ber at a time during that whole period from the beginning when it all began in the summer of tim's 1985 all the way through the appeals and the second case and the final victory in tun in 1990. This is not meant to listen to in one sitting. It goes in chronological order and in essence it's a story with Rabishem's peppering of his feelings and his mainly his experience at the time and what it means to him today. And it's something that um you can look forward to and slowly but surely or you could do it in one sitting if you like in one sitting if you like. But it would really really enhance your understanding your appreciation and uh we've contemplated whether we should split up this episode into two or to leave it at one. But ultimately we made the decision let's put it all out there on the table and almost fivehour podcast. And here you have it. Here it is. So sit back, relax, drive, walk, whatever it is. Enjoy. Don't be afraid to pause it and get back there later. But it's a worthwhile listen from the beginning till end. And I hope that our listeners will learn a lot. We'll experience a lot and will have a new appreciation of. And that's so appropriate as we celebrate 40 years of is to know what it is, what it was, and how it's relevant to us today each year more and more. Enjoy. I'm Yasi Cayman. Welcome to among an ongoing faban about life as our vibrant connection with the reb and inspired living shaped by the way he teaches us each and every day. [music] How are you? >> Shalom. >> Wonderful. >> Okay. Thank you so much. As we approach, it's a very special Havis this year because this year will be 40 years since the original tough. So this is not really um there's been there've been books published and articles in and various other sources about you know the full story of Havis. I think not enough. I think there still could be some sort of official documentation of it. Um, but I think what you would really be able to bring to the table regarding this whole story of Havis is the experience that you had as a young bacher at the time at the beginning of the whole saga till till till it was done and that would be very beneficial for me and for everyone else to hear. So, uh, hope you can do that. We'll try. So I guess we have to start from the beginning. When does this is I guess I I already made the disclaimer. This is in your eyes. So in your eyes, when where does the story begin in your experience? The first time I knew anything about this was in a motel in Kasca, Michigan. uh probably another 15 20 bim kids. Uh at that time this was in the days when there was the cable TV you were able to see the reban. >> So you guys were in camp in >> we were in camp in Kaska Michigan. And it was Maki. And uh I was a what was I then? A 19-year-old Baker. And um the we were told before that there's going to be there's we actually heard before that there's going to be something there may be something special at this Fabrangan. But regardless, there was a faban on cable TV was, you know, we wanted to go and find a place that has you you only were able to see it in a place that has a satellite and the hotels and some of those places had it. So, we rented a few rooms and we went down there and uh we gathered into a into a room and we watched that. It was faban. >> Was that the normal seda? That was because you're expecting something. >> No, it was it was at that time with cable TV was an opportunity to be able to do it. could be they had an effect and that's when I remember the beginning you know it was you were watching the faban the cable TV fabans were beautiful to you know to watch and uh and then the rebba spoke the withb for the first time mentioned in you didn't know exactly what's going on but the started explaining that there were some people that went in and uh and there was a nest and how they or how they were caught. And the Rebu went into the subject of of of the and already over there you saw that this is something dramatic. This is something that is causing Agnes and it just was uh you know you you listened you watched it uh and you know you realize there's something that's that's bothering the Reb and it's very important. Um we came back and uh following that was there was a that the Reb had for the that came for you for your bas uh usually is a speaking to the to the about certain and and here the started talking about the story of the and that was very different. it was much more open and much more uh expressing the pain. Uh there's a number of subjects which people are familiar with. Uh uh there was both the and then there was the faban afterwards of tesamos. Um and the rebba expressed then the the pain and the fact that you hear that also was there a hookup to that? >> Yes. Yes. What happened was we we gathered into I don't know if you've ever been to the gy in Detroit but I >> have >> okay and uh there was a trailer in that trailer there's a small room it's not more than 9 ft by 9 ft we not the whole camp saw the heard the fabangan whether whatever it's interesting to think back on those days not everyone there wasn't a hookup for everybody and we gathered together we pushed into a small room many of the staff were busy with the And uh there was a pay phone in that room and uh someone connected to the pay phone some wires and things so everyone could hear it and that's where we heard it and >> but you have no idea what the Reb is talking about the throughout this week. >> We we we we started finding out >> from the Reba >> from the Reba. Actually, I do remember at one point after I came back to camp and I remember specifically someone coming over to me like shushking into my ear that it has to do something with family and and I was trying to think if I you know if I met this person or not and actually that year I did. I was at 770. I used to be there a lot and you know I was at that time a baka and all the but um I dka did >> but the the point was I it it was you know we we heard it's something that happened you know in in those kind of inanim but we didn't know that much you know it's it's before WhatsApp it's before you know even phone calls like it just wasn't we didn't get a lot of information but we got some information and then I remember being in that little room where uh together with a bunch of and we're listening to the Reba and again I'm not going in now to there was and then there was often during the year there were times there were there were very strong and those that were there then know but this was like of a different nature where you saw that the Reb was talking about the fact of of taking the the he was ne and to go to taking the and selling it and and uh you know many different topics that I was speaking about the I mean you know for the Reb to speak about these these topics in public you realize this this must be something you know very important they're very painful to the Reb uh you can only understand it when you actually hear hear those directly from the Reba and um I'm I'm going to go to test to test uh specifically just because in my memory right now that stands out how uh a certain moment in the fab and that towards the end when the Reb asked that we should sing certain and the Reb said they should sing and the Reb said they should sing and that all those from around the world that are listening should should also sink and and the Reb said that that that that the Reb is sure that right Now I'm sorry in ganed alen wherever the is they're singing with us and said some people that will will think you know the a hard time like not saying the words exactly but it was like well we'll have a hard time agreeing with this whatever they you know they believe but by me that right now when we sing this they're singing with us And basically the Reb is saying that all the around the world should be seeing in the niggan of that was just one the whole everything the was talking s and both in the serious and also in in the other part was a kind of talk that you didn't you didn't normally hear. So and then you could imagine in this little room everyone singing and dancing together the niggan. So you know a young buck it you know made a very a very strong relation. Okay. So then you know I want to take a plane. I want to I want to go to New York. You know he say stuck in campa. What is this? you know but but whatever my job was you know it wasn't simple and I was convinced not to and then um and then came we heard there was Shabas pinas which of course that was uh the Reb spoke for very long very painful even more than before but I wasn't there and uh the Reb was facing a direction that the Reb never usually wouldn't face and Just the whole the way the Reb spoke about himself about the challenge about how to overcome the challenge. The Reb said how the Reb spoke how at one point the Reb said that it disturbs him. He wants to learn Arashi and and and and it comes into you know the the the aggravation or whatever it was you [snorts] know affects the Reb was talking about himself. So these are all the things that you know that were that the Reb was talking and together with that of course I'm not going through the whole but at that time right away already I think it was already the said that 70 is is on the name of and they should make that there needs to be a from the and inabad they should make a place and that should be a house of a And that's where the init that were stolen could be brought. >> We just had a whole article in the on the story of the building of the 770 in Yeah. So right away from the beginning even even when the Reb spoke to the to to to the which was before and that's when the Reb basically laid out um not the whole story but the 70 how the 70 and how it belongs to to toad and how there should be a place inad and all of that was already before and by fab and of tamas and again I I don't remember exactly which one but the reb that's happening and that's the way it's going to be the and there's no way to be all the language was was very unique different and and and and expressing the the urgency of the matter um so um you know of course I s them all over the world and everyone is is is touched by it but I'm you know I'm just you asked me to share for myself so uh it was after after shabas then I finally I was able to it was either the end of camp or I was able to go and I went to New York came in the summer it was I was a bach but I I just came to 70 I wanted to be there [snorts] and um so I remember um I remember uh coming and even though I heard heard I think maybe before but I walked in so 70 and all it was at night I all of a sudden I'm told there's there's bakim that are having sh >> and there was there was both up it was the concept of the library of of but I was told that it was it was it was a by the and I remember like as a bach you know it was it like shocked me like I'm there and theb you know ourb you know the one that everyone's ready to do anything and anyone the world is ready to do what the Reb says and and the mel and you know so on and so and the iss and there's people there that are sitting to to to to because of because of a problem because of concern it was it was just you It shocked the system and I remember that was that was very painful. >> It was because of the there was like this concern. >> First of all, there was the idea of of of the no one coming and taking but at that point I think there was a feeling that you know there was a concern. I don't know what the concern exactly was but it was it was just a concept. I'm I'm giving you really this is really as as a as a young buck >> impression >> impression that was my impression. And it was like one of those moments, you know, it was a moment of of of feeling the what this whole situation means that that the Reb's in his own house in, you know, in 770 and the has to have a problem in 770 from inside. Like that was that was very shocking. It was very painful. And the next few weeks we spent I don't remember the timing exactly, but I spent in some 70 And we used to come together a group of every morning we to say tillum and >> this is on your own you decided >> I don't recall exactly what it was if it was the it was this but I know I used to come and we used to say it wasn't a big thing it wasn't like a lot of people but we felt like it's a you know it was important that's that that was the seriousness you know the the feeling of the seriousness of it Um and that whole was a very it was very difficult at least on my end like and I you know that's the way it felt the then wasn't feeling well when I say I think if I remember correctly that it was coughing very loud and and to the point that you were able to hear it outside. I didn't hear it personally, but I heard that the bakim that were there when it was quiet that they were they were able to hear it in the in the lobby or in Zal, it was a very we knew that the pion not feeling good and and uh I know there was a time and I don't know if it was right then that a that a doctor asked the about it and the said which means it's it's not physical it's it's uh spiritual it's uh which uh I don't know if it means spiritual but it mean at least you know I we took it >> it's coming from uh >> we took it as from magnavish you know that's it's coming from pain you know but again that's I don't even know if it was right then could be that was another time also had to do with the with the rights in other contexts and today doctors I think agree with this also that stress and everything like that can cause physical ailments especially as by as by a regular person so Right. So you know you know so you could imagine you know coming and saying tillum it's the early morning you know we probably went through till and um so the way you know I think as a bak that was like a beginning of it was really like a journey and I look back now I'm saying five years because it wasn't over everything till that We were engaged. We were evolved. And the truth is it was it was it was it was everything of our his in a way. I think it help it it actually developed a certain hisash by the bakim of that time because you were thinking about the you were thinking about the pain you wanted to dav extra. You wanted to learn extra you when when you when you whatever you did was connected. You know, and if right they would say over here it was that that should go away that it should be taken care of. That was the the at least in amongst the Baham that I was that I was around that was the spirit and um uh and I I really think that that um and you know it's even more than that because um we'll probably have a chance later to talk about it but there were so many things in the it could be it could be a what did think about he's standing in front of and he's thinking of whatever is happening by all the problems should go away. uh you know when the Reb spoke at Fabangans the Bahim saw in every Fabian at that time that the Reb was referring not always formally but it could be a rashi it could be a Rambam it could be a many things there were things that the Reb spoke openly and I'll share some of it but even those things that didn't warrant so you if you look carefully you could see that there was a lot that was addressing that time >> I I noticed that in my own experience at a certain point I learned those there's a lot a lot of that seemingly have no connection but you know you can tell that yeah it's connected throughout the whole period yeah so so ma it wasn't it it wasn't only like a story and and you know it happened and then there's a tavis you know there was there was throughout every day of that year tashim a bak that was here constantly was living with this with what was happening anyway. >> So what are some of the actual events that uh that that happened? So I >> Yeah. So >> talking about the summer and coming back and then >> so we come to Tish. So I I mentioned I mentioned Kia Schaefer. I remember you know anyone that was by Tia Schaefer knows that that was something they'll never forget. And um but I I in my recollection even by by itself besides thinking about it yourself um together with of course you think about your own developed but you know you thought about the Reb you know and and I I remember in in in that by when the Reb said you know so um first of all I I I don't remember that but someone someone's told me that that that uh I I remember there was something bykim that that happened. So there was one thing that someone said that it was the said >> I've heard from people that the said that I could be both. >> Okay. So I I don't remember that, but what I remember was and and it could be I'm mixing up whenever I remember something of like a a or something different in that was always the way it was in my memory. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I I don't know. But the point was when you thought about when you thought about you know so comes and the rebre stands up and the stands up to dance now you have to remember the rebb didn't stand to dance I think till the since the end of the lit and the rebb should And the danceb as as as soon one of the things that was very strong from all the way through was the Indian of that how do we take care of all the and all the all the that you overcome it through and you see already you see that all of a sudden there was this thing that was a total you know at that time. Um the second thing that comes to my mind of was was um lately was was learned. Um so I remember for myself um I went to we went on tal and we went to a regular fireplace you know wherever the whole crowd wherever the whole crowd went not very not more than not very far but you know it was I don't remember where they went they always go to either bar park or flatbush whatever it was and usually what happens is after everyone finishes in their shs everyone comes together to a place and then you eight and then there's a a police escort and it took a long time and then you would arrive and you'd come to the um and I wanted to come back and be there by the so but I have to go on so I I got two friends and I actually not sure who they are right now but I remember it was two bach and uh I went we we decided we we went to a place we finished maid And then instead of going and doing the whole thing, we met up. We're going to just >> we ran back the whole way. Pusher ran back. And uh it wasn't something I would usually do because you know there's dangerous places and no police >> related to to the mativ or or just whatever. >> It was a it was a rot to be there. No, >> it happened to be that year. >> It was it was it was we wanted to be bad, you know. >> Okay. And um and uh so I come back and we you know you arrive like mamish after the beginning of the fabang and the place is empty more you know emptier than I've ever seen. It was very special, you know, like you were you were there and it was like I was a little concerned like I should be seen, you know, you but we arrived very early on and um and then um and then you had where over there also the finished off that came middle of the first and and the stood up again and um so that was obviously very special and then the Reb started And I'm I'm bringing this up for a reason because I believe this was a beginning of something that had to do with the whole and the whole of the Reb started talking about the now remember the generally are not theirs but the Reb started speaking about the from and first the Reb said that because we're speaking about the from the so it should start with the because the of the go through the and to all the hidden and the when you're starting with from the it was I'm not going to go into all the details but so that was one thing and then the rebba started talking about uh something which at that time was shocking when the rebba said that that when you do the gimatria the numeric value of of of of the word and you have you add to that the neesh um the 10 powers of the soul um to that then it becomes the mashiach and the explained how the is the mashia and how when you when a goes theb spoke about all y that everyone in the generation is is when you're Megala when you're Mgala the the the the isala the Msiah again I'm not being exactly accurate here but that was the so for me you know you know I'm standing did not speak about a lot before in those years yeah >> all the years I mean I think >> yeah yeah for many years didn't speak about and all that and here I'm st I still remember where I was standing and like it was like overwhelming that I felt like this is a giloy this is like a that the first saying about Msiah and and you know that was truthfully the big the most overwhelming part because was it the year before when the Reb said about >> year before the rejected >> yeah the year before were singing and there was a sh I was there I I heard it and now The deb is like saying in with such kind of language and it was it was so that itself was was overwhelming but then the deb started speaking about that this is all you know all people of generation the gaba what the reb was talking about but then there are those who were appointed by the or by his and every could make up and I've explained many times of of That means basically, you know, forever. And and the Reb said that those those um in other words are the Reb used the term then that you know you want to that to be able to do to be able to accomplish this you have to have and like until you get to a point of actually being a and going out and doing a and and so on and so forth. And the Reb was saying that this is possible and Shia to everyone in our generation that everyone could be a and the Reb also said it's not the Reb also said that it's the responsibility of the to see to it that everyone should become because it has to be it has to be so that they have to see to it that there should be a roten to be a >> which by the way I haven't seen anyone speak about this and it's a side note I think that it's it's it's a very important point that the Reb is saying that and the Reb says specifically those that are already have a responsibility to create a desire >> by others >> by others so that's that's that was that's a very important point and what you saw through and all of a sudden the rebu talking about the idea and and the Reb said then that that of course you know you become a through through a through by by being appointed through a uh through a like a contract or and uh I know from actually was that the actually edited that added something to it. Um so on one hand the is saying every is a first of all from second of all we're all we're all in the generation of of the and at the at the same time the was was encouraging the idea of in general um we'll see later when we talk about what happens in kislave that this was a beginning of a whole new level of the Reb talking about and making around the world. And then the whole year there was there was a a new language of how the Reb began to speak about it. And it was clear that this was the answer to the whole threat and the whole kit so to speak of what happened with the that the Reb saw it as a as a as a as a spiritual kit. And the response is by doing more and by doing more of what the rebba what theb what theb brought us brought in our generation the whole of and that's why I'm mentioning that because it was >> it was a theme that started >> it was a theme that I that it seems to me that it started >> it started already and later you know we see it more later the was connecting it more is going to connect it more here the didn't connect it at least in my memory directly with you know with the case. So we have two things they already mentioned how they spoke about counter acting the the whole story and >> exactly and later the used just we'll have a chance when we go through the >> there's also other things that happened with also that were uh >> okay you one second yeah that was the one with the cup >> we'll talk another time that was >> said to turn everything over. Yeah. >> Unbelievable. Unbelievable. >> It was such a ma. It was such a scene. The way that I was holding it was that's a story for itself. I I guess we're we're keeping Tavis. So, I'm I'm >> Okay. >> So, uh yeah, I'll go upon him. >> So, what's the next uh >> So, then came during Tish, I think it was, and again, I might be off in my in my memory right now. Um there was one time maybe it was the beginning of but it could was in the middle of that the lawyers came and they had a they had a maybe you know the date but they had a it was and there was a table and they were there and then Rabbi Kinsky Rab Sha were there and um >> the knew about this. >> We were we were outside I was outside. And I remember knowing that that they were inside. So it wasn't >> how much information today like we you know we quote unquote know everything. You guys knew what was going on with the lawyers with this with like there was like >> it depends when what I'm sharing with you now is what I knew at the time >> right >> of course there's more things now we know. So half the things you already mentioned there's like so many layers of details like we know the whole we know that there's a whole met before with with said he's going to speak about and if nothing happens right there's a whole background but we're not getting there how you asked you asked me to share how you perceive what I what I witnessed and when I was there um look whatever I'm saying is the way I saw it as ab >> you know obviously you know it's you these these things these are the things that >> I mean it is it is influenced because it's post tavis right yeah of course obviously >> these are things that that um that you forget less it's you know you these were things that impacted you >> it's not it's not information that you heard it's something that you live through >> right >> yeah okay so the with the lawyers you're standing outside >> yeah I was standing outside the lawyers were there but I I actually don't recall right now if it could be it was even in the middle of tish Anyway, we'll we'll find out. We'll look it up. We'll ask the bakim today. We'll ask the bakim today. They'll tell us they'll tell us when it was exactly. Um so yeah so they were they were by the rabbi and also that could be also the it could be was the beginning of but that was also could be the time when when um later told about how theb how the gave guidance about using the letter of marks and uh >> yeah it's the cornerstone of >> that should be the cornerstone and they lot of davka thought that way and then they realized that it was it actually made it into the verdict but that's so that was But I did not know much at the time. I I didn't was a fabul >> some information. So that I didn't know details. Could be there were guys that knew. I I didn't know. Um the next thing that I remember um I was I I I wasn't even so familiar exactly that there's a case exactly when and what I I didn't know everything uh but I do did know that there was a deposition for the Davidson and that was you know even even from the little bit that I knew you know it was uh uh you know we knew they're coming to to there were very concerned about it. I mean, you know, Sai the people were very concerned about it. Um, and you know, and um there were also other senior as they're called today, you know, uh that were very concerned about it and people were thinking of ways how do we change this? How do we stop this? There was a >> there was a number of efforts that were that were, you know, considered. Um, but as we now know that the Reb told Rabbi Krinsky that the Reb is not worried. She'll she'll the language that they say is she'll pass with flying cars. >> I just had a little discovery about that. >> Yeah, >> I don't know. You're the one talking over here. So, I don't know if I should interject, but it's something that I figured out recently. So, Krinsky always says that the Reb said he he thought just like he's going to fight that the Reb shouldn't make a deposition that the Reban also should not. And the rabbis the rabba told him, "No, no, she'll pass or whatever. She'll she'll go through with flying colors." And he always uses that language. But I once heard a recording many years ago of him talking about it and he says flying colors and someone's like on his case. Yeah. Baz and then then he says um this person has asked him keeps on asking him again and again. He's like then he like he made him confused. He's like sure of his. >> Yeah. So I just found um a few months ago I found out uh from someone from Burkowitz that in his diary you know Bren's diary from then it says that language flying colors and not only that there's a um from before then I for I forgot the date I think it was rally forgetting the date that used in a rally that lush in flying colors and I'm sitting with him and he's like one second he's showing me I'm like one second there's a tape of this. We pulled up the tape and it's on tape. You can hear the say this word flying color. So vice that he remembers very good. I mean it's it's in his diary from then but this is a that >> I'm so happy you're telling me that. I actually >> Yeah, >> I thought about it a number of times. >> I I I already presume that like no he's just translating in his mind like no no no this is a flying colors. So, but we didn't know about that, right? >> You know, I'll tell you one thing I remember when I when I heard that there's that Sullah was outside the Deb's house. That's what I heard at the time >> during the during the rapid position. >> Now, whether now I'm hearing that Lavka was really needed or whatever the reason, but in my mind, you can imagine, you know, you hear that there's a deposition and the Rebson and there's outside. What are you supposed to think? you you're thinking of, you know, so it was uh it again you're asking for a bach, you know, it was it was it was very hard to you know it was very difficult and of course we we said till and this but you know that that's what that's what happened at the time. We all know now we know in other words what the some of the things that Evbertson said at the at the deposition and um you know I don't know one of the things that that interested me was uh that the Rebbitson that the Rebbitson said when they asked her when they asked the Rebbitson about uh that that she ever used the language that like that they could do this believe Pearson without public >> as if she gave permission >> as as if she gave permission. person >> and the rabbitson I think she thinks I didn't see it but but what it's written you know and I was or told by people is that >> you didn't see because you don't want to see it >> I I never I saw a few seconds I I just didn't feel right I didn't you know you >> you're taking me back [snorts] um yeah so that was that was that was >> you said bleed person >> oh yeah I'm sorry. So, she said pum and it's interesting to me because >> she said that the only time I said this >> Oh, she said the only time I said this, no, she I think she thought and then she said or she she the last time that she said pum but the only time said pum was when the was released in in in in in in the family to say that that he's coming out that the fab is coming out and it should believe it was just it's so fascinating you know uh you know first of all the everything is thought through and everything is and to me also it was like very special we're getting a little off the >> top where the explains this concept >> that that what explains a whole beard that Thomas is connected with the language >> but no one understood Why the Reb is saying that? Yeah. And it was the Rabbitson that said that. Yeah. And and but but it was also another thing that was interesting for me in terms of the Rabbitson that there was another case where the Rabbitson was in 70 when when the Reb left and from the from 70 and all the Bakim were there and they were dancing and everything else and there was a and the Rebson said on the Baham at least that's why I remember it that the Reb said something like maladets like these are and the said something like that this type of simra was you know was was like you Thomas >> so it all connected >> it ju it just gives you an understanding first we're talking about Ibrahim you know what is in the life of of you know what else is there you know it's like so believe pear connects with that this is connecting with that it was an interesting interesting I want to tell you that you know in our time as I don't know I you know I can't tell you for sure but it somehow I get a sense that in our those years the bahim felt a very strong shyus to the rabbit um more than I think in some other years at least from what I hear and I think it I think it happened for a number of reasons um or that for some people you know that that there was a time that Rabbitson wasn't feeling well and the Rabbitson fell and or or or there was wassues that started coming up so you know naturally you have a you're thinking about what's the thinking about the rebbitson and so it became like five it became the thing we used to say till the you know I know I you I used to see certain, you know, and they would always say, you know, it became in our time, I think, more of something that was on our minds. And also when I was that in 770, all of a sudden, we started hearing things, different comments from the Rabbits. again maybe years earlier it was also but at least in my time and it had to do with this case a number of things that happened uh there was a story with there was when someone was didn't act properly and different things that we heard comments of the so just naturally you you were more aware that the rebbitson is there and and and and you you thought about it you ded for the rebbitson you cared about the rebbitson and you realized you know it was more central in our life. I remember once in that in that time I was I was outside it was Shabas afternoon and the was Shab I shouldn't say it's the afternoon it was whenever it was exactly um it was in theutzer of Susi at that time they used to have these benches it it was different than it's now and this the side the the the sidewalk in the used to go right up to the to the the library would I don't know how to describe this but there was a window from the library where the Reb and the Rebung both were there for Shabas and >> and it was and the end of the with the benches was right in line with that window and so I remember once uh it was for some reason you know that's the way we we were in the he didn't always you know you didn't always keep everything in mind and I was there myself and I was dabbing and uh you know not as a a should have with with a minion or or David Baveda. And I was standing with a sideta and I was walking back and forth uh right there basically opposite that window and all of a sudden I see the image of the the curtain was like a little bit like open and I see the image of the standing and basically there was no one else you know. So I I I I guess I'm just mentioning this. This was it was it was a time when we we were very in tune or we were trying to be in tune with what was happening and what was important to the Reb. And it was we were we were we were at a Fabangan once um late at night in 1418. I was I I wasn't yet in 770. It wasn't but I used to go there to fab with some alter and we were sitting in Fabang late at night and uh one of the unic boys came in and it was the the youngest one I think it was and not we were after so I was telling him you know that you know how how we sang to for the rabbits and how and how Uh um and again we were after so I was we were kind of telling him to tell the deb are you know are are saying tim and dominating for her and so on and um even after even after that didn't think it was actually a real thing you know it was actually going to happen but later he told me that he did that he did and um so Again, you know, I'm I'm I'm just giving you a flavor of what it meant, you know, you know, you know, at that time for Baham, at least again, the Baham that I was that I was with. Um anyway, so that was a deposition. That was a deposition that went through and then came uh then camel. So for example um Shabas I'm just going by what's coming to my mind now was a Fabran and um the the Fabian the Reb focused a lot on the Sim and how the is is brings the and so on and so forth and Reb went through a a whole of of different levels of from and so on a major part of the was about and used language like that that takes away and again I don't remember now the but there was those it was that language of that this will overcome the problems when there's etc etc So again, we're all there and we realize that is saying that by having sim you are that's the way to take care of of the problem. So mat shabas the bim were dancing um and and we were you know we we danced to mat shabas like in many hours um and I remember how there were people that looked at us like you know like koim orim or whatever it was you know we didn't get a very good reaction from from the pe from the older people but for the bahim it was it was clear the is saying that through we're going to be able to accomplish this so that was you know so that that was happening I think that was our members specifically Shabas. Um and then came Udkislave. So Yudkislave was also a Shabas I think it was Javas I think um if I'm correct. And >> so there's um Okay. >> And then then the Reb. So the Reb then spoke about the the or maybe it was maybe it wasn't on Shabas but it was about there was also oh first of all there was a in that there was a about but there was a at that time you know so there there was there was a small in those days wasn't what it was later wasn't the whole dedicated to it but there was already there and the mentions about more about etc um And remind me what are you saying about >> that? I mean there was also there's also festivities and >> Oh okay. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So what happened was I think it was I think and that was that was uh very a very sharp very sharp they came in the was I think it was in and the was because basically there hasn't much wasn't done all these months about the I'm not sure. I don't know if they were already maybe preparing the case. Yeah. They were already there was already action. It was Okay. Go ahead. >> But they came to the Reb because >> they thought they saw what's happening. They they because there's about to be a court case. >> Yeah. Yeah. Tremendous. There was also the issue of the having to give testimony which everyone thought was would be terrible because the whole reason they were coming same thing with the but the whole reason they were coming was to that the the the the opposite of honor and you know that the reb should have to answer questions and they would come and etc etc. It would have been a for foridim didn't would never allow it but the Reb said that he would do it and so they came to the Reb and they wanted to offer and they wanted to offer some way of settling it financially whatever it was I don't know exactly um and it wasn't only it was it was people in my opinion they were they they didn't want to ever have >> you say in America they meant wealth >> they meant Well, you know, they were coming to cuz we got to stop this. We got to somehow we got to somehow bring this to an end, you know, and but they came they came to the Reb and the Reb speaking in incredibly sharp way. >> You you guys heard this? >> No, no, no, no. >> Okay. >> There were maybe some guys that heard from outside. I don't know. But they I'll some tell you when they told us about it, they told us not everything, but they told us a little bit. Um what happened was they they the rebba said the rebba basically said to them like like like almost like where are you know where is that where are you was there tillum said was that stuck said the mentioned another another uh group of yen that when they had a trouble they made a tonis they made a fast day was was you know where you know where is the you know is is there is is it stuck being given is this tum being said and and and um used the puk of saying that when when you you know cry out to the Aisha that the aisha listens etc etc and um at that time the expressed that this is not this is about the banle and the I believe that pointed to the chair which means it it's about the whole idea of the whole idea of the nio of you know they wanted to say labavich stopped this I'm adding myself the labavich stopped uh uh by the now was you know it's not the real thing or whatever it is whatever they want to say I don't I I can't interpret you know what was but the point was the reb was speaking about it like this is a this is a this is a a war against all the and and said it then >> yes and the rebba said then like and and that that Uh in other words, there was no this wasn't something that you can compromise on. This was this is not a question of money. It's a question is that these are the and this I'm saying myself this is these are the holy that are part of the life of the of the part of his life. That's where the life of a sadic is is in >> those are not your words. Those are the words. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know. So I'm trying just to share for anyone that doesn't know the the details that this is the life of a his life is the his life a safer of is is is part of the used the term at one point that that they want to make a leva of the of of of the again in other words by taking away you're taking a piece of the langu the spoke about the of of the besides the fact that gave away his last money and for the but the life of his his love of hem his fear of hem his his his learning in the and then when you want to take that and say that it's not any more holy and you're going to sell it on the open market the said like like you know it's unbecoming even for an evid for a for for for a slave. So by the this was something you can't it has to be determined that this belongs to because that's the that's the so that was the it wasn't about you know how much value is it how much money is it so in that theb you know clarified that in a very strong way that that that this needs to be determined and the said then I'm ready to go to court I'm ready to you know the was ready to do anything to see to it that this happens. This was these were things that we you know it was it was very painful you know and and and we we kind of the idea that this was a nas and it was something that's the way the bahim spoke um you know but here the you know the reb it went from like of to know that's the is saying that's what it is. >> Yeah. Yeah. Now this wasn't yet public. Now the I'll tell you was first of all it's important to understand at that time at least my memory there was no such thing as a sen you know you didn't have these kind of gatherings of everybody you're talking about even until until that time there was once a year and that was the that was the y of and and and Um and and it was in my in my memory it's like a very large crowd but whatever it was there was long tables and were there it was aim was it was the day of the so you could imagine you know we're in middle of this day of by the and they kind of they came in together a number of members of for many years I thought they came directly from the but I don't think it was I think this was a few days earlier but they somehow they met and they came in and then they started sharing ing and they didn't share everything but they shared parts of it some there was a number of people that spoke and they shared how there's that the wanted said it to to the members of but they understood that it's not just for them that it's for everybody and so right then in the middle of the we we stood up the whole stood up and we were saying till and you know that's like another I don't know for some reason in I you know >> core memory. >> Yeah. You know, you you imagine you're standing there, you're in 770, the Reb is upstairs or you're in it's the day the happiest day in the year. The Reb is asking for and we're praing for it was it was just it was something that was like surreal like like is this really happening? you know, is this and and so, you know, we realized for many people that was like a moment that they realized that this is this is, you know, this is very serious. Um, how do you start talking about youth going back? You skipped this and you went to I think you were talking about >> Yeah. Yeah. So then the kind of the next the the next one of the fabins I think it was Shabasudis. I have to double check that. I'm not sure but whatever whatever it was it was it was the whole was about and the rebba spoke then about um about uh again they were speaking about the about the rabb and the rebba basically as far as I remember a major part of the went on the that the whole the idea of breath expansion of of the the whole idea of and everything else. But then the spoke about and the whole thing of say and that this is all the idea of that that's what brings the said at one point maybe it was this said when when a goes out and he's someone and so on and so forth like you see what you ask him what what did you you know what does give you whatever he'll say made it made him happy or something like that it was something about the so it was a wholean about or a lot of about and in there the Reb again said how how there's that this takes care of the you know the and things like that and it was a very clear uh expression of of how will will take away any of the of the now it was at that everyone knows about this I mean there was it was fab and that the the came over to the Reb and and uh and and it you know there was that week was supposed to be the week that uh both the Reb that the Reb was supposed to say Adidas there was going to be there was going to be a deposition. Um and he was also and he was what whatever it was whatever it was the Reb responded to him. >> He didn't want to he didn't want to do it. >> Yeah. And the Reb responded to him in a very passionate way and it was both in the Reb's facial expression and the Reb's hands. The Reb was talking how this is a I didn't hear the Reb's words. I I was I was too far. But the Reb was saying and the Reb and in a way it was to see that to see the Reb saying that to him etc. It was very painful very difficult to watch you realized how serious it was and the Reb finished went vashi. Um it's very interesting that for some reason look there was a lot of people who you think now after all these things of course everyone is already uh is understands the seriousness whatever it is for some reason you know people I think it was like a natural thing that you know it's not our Indian it belongs it's it's private and there was a number of things that were holding whatever the reason is I can't explain But I didn't understand it at the time for sure. And um but for some reason after that fab you remember there thousands of people by fab whatever the number >> you heard the speaking loud and >> it wasn't only the speaking loud it was it was it was it was terrible that just seeing the reb's face and the rebas talking it was something that was you didn't see it was it was in public you remember was the whole fabangan's there and and it was very painful and after that I remember I remember from friends and I'll tell you from other people, from older people. All of a sudden, everyone realize, okay, this is this is something different. This is serious. This is something that didn't have to care about. You know, it was I don't know. It was it was like a a shift. It was a shift in by a lot of people. At least that was my interpretation. And I' I've heard over the years, I think that that's that's you know, that's accurate. Um it was one of those moments that was that was a big shift in the understanding that we have to pay attention. there's something you know serious happening. Remember this is youth kiss it was uh 10 days later was uh start of the court you know it was it was getting very close um so that was that was so then we you know the bahim you by night we were dancing a whole night a whole night we were dancing it wasn't the big group it was a small group of bakim but we said I was the younger ones but there was older bakim 70 and we're dancing in the place where the elevator is where you know the place where the gives dollars you and and we were dancing a whole night and that's where the famous niggan was created at that time. >> Yeah. That we were singing a niggan. What happened was there was uh this is probably well known that uh by the which is not long before that there was poisoner. He was the he was probably then the the scan the oldest and they picked him up I think on his shoulders and he screamed that was the because of the case and everything else and uh so somehow the Baham found out about it and and somehow in the middle of the night someone put the words we were singing the dig and someone put the words to the niggan and I've definitely get there was also some other sukim that we had that there was the ga made then but that's for another those didn't stay in the system there were some people that that that had their own their own neg But that was something that that uh that that that stayed. So that was remember this is you kiss by night. Okay, we all know that at this point the Reb is going needs to say to give testimony and everyone understood that that's it's terrible like it can't happen. We were kind of sure in our mind that somehow it's not going to happen but we didn't you know it was serious and um and then I remember there there was there was signs on the wall of calling everyone to say toum for yudimis in the morning 7:00 in the morning uh happens to be there was it was signed I think by the mashim there was then in those days there was like there was three mashim one of them was my grandfather And uh they signed a thing and the heading was if I remember correctly was like again speaking from you a sign on the wall a start. It's not like today where everything is, you know, a dime a dozen and then WhatsApps and whatever. It's things in if something was on the wall, it was was it was was serious, you know, and you're looking at it and it's like a were coming together to davin and to there were people that were fasting. The rebel later discounted the idea of fasting but there were people and we got up it was 7:00 in the morning and metillum I think it was the whole at that time if I'm not mistaken punch the whole imagine whole 770 is dominating and that raised was a lot of an a lot of others imagine everyone coming together to say to him a whole tim for what because today the may may have to give testimony and and that's a degrading thing and etc etc. So that was 7:00. I don't know how long tillum took but I remember I I wanted to be there when the rebba came to because we're waiting to see what's going to happen. You know what uh and this is you know vivid in my mind. And I was I was standing like uh by the by the door of within in the in the area of the elevator, but like by the door to the hallway and I was inside I was in I was inside the room and we were looking out the front door waiting for the Reb to arrive. Uh mama it was 10:00 I think it was 10 o'clock in the morning. That's when the reb used to come then you know and uh bas for me that was one of the most precious times to to see the rebba it was I don't know it was something when the used to come the car arrived the used to walk out it was it was a very malistic and you know in the morning that I was coming to 70 that I would walk in it was just I I still love coming there you know to see you know that coming But this was obviously different. We were very concerned. We were very tensed up, you know, was and when it ever came and I don't think this this was not usual at all. I don't know. I don't know if it was usual to sing. I don't remember right now. But I remember vividly that we were singing the was singing and you know was singing together and was coming in and like like in a way I was hoping you know like somehow you know came in I remember came in and it was very serious walked in I walked into the room but like like I remember the feeling then was like it's not you know, like it's not here yet, you know, it's not like, you know, right now it's not that's again that was the feeling of a young b, you know, it's not like uh and that >> might you might offend some bim calling them young 19. >> It's the same thing when you're older. It doesn't mean anything anyway. But um but you know you were there and you you're waiting for the to come and single to and they were single to and and it was like you know begging that that this should be taken care of went into the room and um the next thing that I remember is when the news came out that all of a sudden that that the Reb is not the Reb doesn't have to say testimony. Um over the years I heard different things that it wasn't even at that time and it was this way and that way till today I don't know 100% what happened. I can just tell you that at that time the was dancing. They say it was before even it actually happened. Whatever it was but you know it was like that was the first taste of it was do you were concerned the whole time with the whole Indian what was going on. This was like an acute issue that was like right now and all of a sudden it looked like it was going to happen >> gone >> and it so it was like a it was like a very special thing but that was the first you know real that that happened you know um and uh we were dancing till and I remember I was I was in the small Z when the Reb came in and I was standing by the by the bin. I was standing like like you'd be standing by the T, you know, that's where that's where I was standing and I was kind of, you know, we were I don't remember it could be was when the Reb came in um and the was already after some of the but uh I remember how the ilm was singing this niggan. That was the first time I believe that we sing it from the Reba. But the words, it could be that it wasn't everyone that was singing it. It was like some guys under like it was beginning to be put into the niggan. But the niggan was being sung. I even remember just these are details how there were guys who were like banging on the bin which in those days you know but there was like small banging. I mean I it wasn't something that I did just because it wasn't my personality but there were it was it was you know the was was celebrating and um and somehow in my memory I thought for many years that I remember that the Reb made like a once with his hand like that. Uh but now I doubt it. I didn't hear it from anybody else, but that's that's the way it was in my memory that the Reba actually gave a little idu to it. The Reb went back to the into the room and like minutes later, Rabbi Metick came in and they they say that Rabbi Khadikov told him like but you have to get back to learning. So it was over, you know, that's that was the uh that was the end of London. [snorts] Um and that night, I believe that was that night that there was a big fab and uh actually again if I make a mistake in any of these, please don't rely on me on any of these things. There's books you can look it up. The dates But what one of the things that was made up when when that they won't have to have a testimony is that the lawyers that they that our lawyers will be given a list of questions and they can ask and that they have no problem with because they're doing it privately. They're asking the questions and the cover away. >> Not on video or anything. >> I don't believe so. I never heard that it was on video but I don't know. Um and the Reba went to the library and the lawyer sat with the Reb and the Reb asked and they asked the Reba questions and later we heard that it was very special. It was very it was very special. And you know, one of the things that I heard was, you know, the Reb always said that this farm belong to everything else and and it seems like they asked the Reb when the Reb says like what does the Reb mean or who does the Reb mean? This I heard it's I I can't vouch for it. But so I heard that the reb like gave a like a a shake with his satuk something like >> I heard that pointed >> to what >> like the pointed yeah >> we don't know if it's true but >> I don't know >> different we don't know >> but it was it was it was all in a very and they wish to have maz for because you give him kiss by night that's kisl and I'll tell you I was when the Reb came out to the library to come back to 70. I was standing um on you know on the front steps not on the steps you know you have the whole platform that goes from one step to the next step it by 770 so it takes a while for the reba to come so we were able to stand there and then when the reb will come we'll before the comes we'll we'll move away I remember I was standing like in the middle literally in the middle of >> the big steps >> of the big steps you know like right there facing facing the library and watching the deb come And the Reb was uh the Reb was coming. I believe the Reb was in a winter coat if I'm not mistaken. And the Reb was walking from the library all the way to some. And it was such a ma such a sight. The Reb was walking with such a like looked so relaxed and it it was beautiful. It was like, you know, the deb was walking 70 and in middle I I remember how the looked up to 770 like there was, you know, looked up at the whole building, but with such a relaxed look, very different than what I saw that, you know, on a regular basis and that image, it was such a special moment to see and know that the didn't have to give testimony. And there's a moment of and it just felt like it was um to the point where that that moment was with me for for years like that just that moment just walking by and looking at and we knew that that and you know the whole everything together. Um anyways that night there was a fabi and uh Rabbi Shiv and Rabbi Krinsky were sitting together. It was a very unusual site. It's it's interesting. It was in a small zal. It was full of bakim that were standing like you know like bleachers whatever but it was a small z you think of it halah how many bak could it have been you know today's days it's like you know but that was still considered a big fang. It was a big fang. Yeah. And and everyone was just and was and to see Raml and Yodel who we knew were in the thick of things and they were involved and to see them fab and to see them talk about it. It was it was just an incredible time, you know, for for that night. for a little bit of the night. But but but the next night there was I remember I was there was a whole night and and I'll tell you was you know but so so that was that was so this is all days away of court and that's what's strange you know I would >> like you know it's it's interesting how you knew you didn't know everything you So, so like I don't know I don't know if we understood exactly when everything is starting when everything you know it came the day of the case many of our listeners are aware of the magazine we talk about as was known for many years as a magazine so so many people subscribed it but I've encountered many people that are listening to the podcast number one there are some people that know about the magazine but don't subscribe And I've met people that have been listening to the podcast that don't even know about the magazine, whether they're not exposed to it or they know about it, but you know, they never actually interacted with it. So I want to bring to everyone's attention the magazine. This is the way the began beautiful monthly magazine comes out every single month. And over the years, so many people have told me different pieces of feedback. And I think the best piece of feedback that I've gotten in one word is that after you read the magazine, you are uplifted. We're talking about every single month you're going to be living with the Reba. You'll have a a diary the section called about something that happened a certain period by the you'll have a you'll have answers from the reba the mind of the rabbi and you'll also have feature articles that give you but it's usually on a topic it could be historical it could be something a deep dive into one particular topic and it could be something about the reba could be something about a previous reba could something about kabad history very recently. It could be from something in the past from many years ago, hundreds of years ago even. And what it really does is you know people learn people d people. But really takes your free time afternoon on the couch for or some other type of thing like that and you can really get inspired and be uplifted. There's so much out there especially in in the F world. There's so much to read. Not necessarily is everything that's available to read necessarily holy necessarily necessarily uplifting. For sure not. you read this, you'll be uplifted. You'll be more connected and you'll have a you'll have the that we talk about. And for those who know already, it also comes with a kids magazine. Has comics, it has stories, pictures, beautiful, beautiful for children. And you'll subscribe today and you'll receive it every single month. And for those who are not yet subscribed and that are listening to you can go on to.org and when you subscribe use the coupon code among. So tell me about the case. So then came then came the case. It's interesting because I'm told that that uh the the judge picked the date because you testis. >> Mhm. >> So the other side asked to change it. >> I never heard that >> and and the judge didn't didn't uh didn't agree. >> Ah >> so it started you this but I you need to look this up. I I I think that was actually the day that we that was public. Could be the day before was more like the lawyers and and things like that or maybe I was there you discus. I I just don't remember right now. It's naya because there was one thing that I remember specifically that had to do with your discus but I'll tell you in a second. So I was there you know I was there I was there in the court. >> Bak in the were in the court. There was a certain amount of spaces and there were certain bim that went you know those that you know there were there were I you know yeah I mean >> you were there every day I was there almost every day. I was there every day but there were some times that I had to go out because to let other bak in etc. But I was always I was I was there I believe every day. Um as a story for itself. I mean I was I was a regular baka in ina and uh it wasn't you know I I don't remember exactly how how I I you how you manage >> how I how I went I it was the only time in my three years in all that I got a kas one perka but that's all it was only one perka I they must have decided that they're not gonna they're not going to make an issue because uh you know so they basically they let me do it. I I you know I probably got that sense also. So uh I got one pit I was but other than that I was there anyway. So so yeah we were there. Look the bakim felt there there was buses there was a bus that came there were bakim. Yeah, there was there was a lot of B and uh there was um the Baham felt that the Reb and we heard it probably from elders also from elders also. I mean the deb is in court you know this was the case this was uh you know and after everything we heard after everything we knew so we were in the when we were inside it was like it was like it was very intense you know we were sitting with tills you know we're saying till some people were talking saying tum whole time others were were listening intently I was most of the time listening intently um but it you you realize that you know you know what's at stake here. So everything that was happening was was you know very serious. Um and of course there was the other side and there was the lawyers the other side. I remember one of the lawyers other lawyers daughter was there and and uh my brother Yasi was talking she was he was a he was a silver he was a he was a a yid and um anyway so it's interesting I remember the f at least when the day that I was there was either kfka slave oreslave that Rabbi Krinsky was I believe the first one to give testimony and uh He's sitting there up on the on the witness stand and he had with him like a page from the New York Times and like he kind of he was holding it. He kind of opened it or whatever and our lawyer said to him, "What do you have over there?" So he it was it was a full page. I believe it probably was a picture of the Reba of the Faban that was on cable TV for you ad an ad. So he like he like said that this is a >> he just happened to have it with him >> or he it was it was >> what I believe is he wanted to speak about it so the judge will know that the is being watched on cable TV and maybe he can even see the fabin and etc etc. So I I'm not sure if this was your discus then it was about tomorrow night there's a faban in other or tonight. uh if it was the next day then it was just showing of the of of of the you know he should get a sense of he's dealing with the reba he's dealing with he's not dealing with you know just anybody you know so to help you imagine full in New York Times for that he's going to speak on cable TV around the country so it was very I remember so he opens it up he says what it is and our lawyer says to him okay that's not relevant it obviously was planned you know he he knew he made up with the lawyer before but this was the this was the opening, you know, like to basically tell the judge, it was a chance to tell the judge that that that mahandled. So that was one thing that that I remember. Look, the the days every day was long days. It was intense. They brought and and you know, it's 40 years now. And even though I remember a lot of it, but because I never looked through the the books because the Reb at some point indicated >> discouraged it, >> discouraged. We we took it that the Reb is discouraging it. So I never, you know, we never went back to it. We never had it. Uh so a lot of this is is not you know not is not discussed the details of of the case but nevertheless um >> what do you remember >> they look they they they brought a a number of witnesses uh from other places that were going to speak there was one day a full day about is is are you allowed to lie because they were they wanted to claim the whole thing that he wrote that it's a a treasure of the people and belongs to Labavich etc etc is all because he wanted to get it from get it out either to get out of Poland or maybe because of tax purposes whatever whatever it was and mostly I think because to get it out of Poland and the the and and the Reb wrote that someone that could say that on a on a nasi there and a very strong language and the the judge accepted that that's one of the things that >> that's like the whole basis of of the verdict a lot of it >> I don't know if it's the basis but it's Well, the letter of of of to Marx where the F where the FIGA writes that this is a treasure of the people. Yeah, that is the basis. So the idea and they were bringing a lot of testimony to try to say why you're allowed to uh you're allowed to lie and they were literally quoting Mishna arguing in the Mishna part like learning al these were things that Nat Luen was amazing. I mean he was the the attorney you know we were our attorney. Of course, this is the first the first time I'm seeing such a kind of thing, you know, but the way he used to cross-examine these witnesses. He used to run back and forth, ask a question, run back to this table, come back. You know, it was it was a drama. It was a we were we were scared, you know, but he was he was doing his job. He was brilliant just very in, you know, ripping these pe ripping literally ripping these people apart. Um and there was a number of days like that where we saw how it's going well. There were sometimes that there was concern >> because our side our side also had the the witnesses. >> Correct. Correct. Um so there was one issue that there was there was I'm just sharing now off the top of my head a few things but there was there was an issue of of the lying was was an issue. It was the issue of mime because they wanted to say that the that you know obviously the fir paid for these for these from poor people's money and and so our lawyers would would the fir do that and use it for his own enrichment you know and they wanted to say that when you give ma to the rebba it becomes the reb's money and that's his personal money and that's why aliselle came and spoke and spoke about a rebba and what the rebba was is and and how that wouldn't be possible etc. There was different witnesses that came in on >> he was he was a witness for our side. >> It was a very you know Ellie Weisel comes you imagine he was a prominent person. So it's not only what he says it's also the impression that he comes and he's talking about the deb he's talking about labavich talking about answering these questions. So it was a very valuable thing to have someone like Alisel there. Um you had Rab Levan the librarian he was you know he had all the information you see on the table in the courtroom there was a stack of kesh literally on the table right there and they would go back sometimes and and look at different because it was the letters of the letters that had different points and different things that were neg before this whole story came in with the volume of Iris to Fabangan, the same volume that had the letter to the Dr. Markx >> before the whole the whole case. Yeah, >> I think. Yeah, I saw that. I saw him sh talks about that >> explain the whole letter in there. They're different. >> Yeah, >> different letter. >> So, so you had Rabbi Leven, you had Rab Kinsky, you had Posner Shalom, you had all said there was Dr. Shilo which was on from you know from the other side uh Freriedman which was uh sa labavage but every time our lawyers were able to find things like even silly things like >> that piece I saw I saw the transcript of that >> really >> just like a little >> I think I don't remember who's at le one of the cross- examinations they're asking him what's your expertise here do you ever read a book on labavich no do you ever like basically like he established that he has no expertise in this area and now okay now now >> also also they used to always asked them how much money they're making. Hey, for coming they were paid. They were paid to come and nice money. So that would also be always part of it. You know, these are all things that were going on. Of course, there were sometimes there was mamish drama. You know, you have Liberman terrible pett showed how he's lying how he's that Nat Luen speaks about in interviews. >> Yeah. as I I saw something he's talking about his career and the and he says his one one of his best cross-examination experiences was uh was was with that it was it was like you couldn't believe what you're seeing you know that that this is actually happening and he burnt he burnt uh documents and things whatever it was it was you know it might sound like it was all everyone was there was was all secure that it's all good you looked at the judge and I'm sure you heard from others. Um it was poker face for Mizak. He didn't see on his face what he's thinking. He was just sitting there and listening. Didn't show any emotion um you know throughout throughout the case. >> Can I ask you a question? What um cuz I heard conflicting from various people that were Baham at the time. >> Yeah. In your mind, it was clear that there's going to be or in your mind that's part of the the horror that you don't that you don't know for sure. >> You know, it's hard to explain. I think it was a dove or butter that there was going to be but we were still very concerned. You know, you have to how does that how does that come together? You know, I I don't know. You I can't tell you. I there was definitely a strong amuna that they'll be in but you know we we were still afraid how you know it could be the was a was a whatever it was I I don't know I didn't think about that but it was it was it was I know I know throughout the whole case we were it was very difficult >> you know when I when I sat through for a day you were I I remember you were sitting you were looking at the judge you were looking what's happening and it went on I don't know how many hours 6 hours 8 hours I don't know how long the days of court was but it was long it was hours and hours and and you didn't realize how tense you are because you're worried about every word and everything going on and I remember when I when I used to leave I push it I would have a splitting headache like just you realize afterwards how you know you're you're you're focused on on one you know on on one person for so long and you're so intense about it you know I used to come out I used to pure I have a a splitting headache from it whoever you you'll speak to and whoever was there I mean you you imagine we knew at that time literally we knew while we're in court the rebel It was it was totally unusual. You know, today we hear that going to the Reb went every day. Wasn't once a month. It wasn't twice a month. And we knew that Reb was going to the And we knew the Reb is fasting and standing on his feet a whole day by the, you know, going to the even in other words, fasting starts already in the morning. and the Reb is is is by the aisle and we there were days that we were back when the Reba came back from the I don't remember now exactly when and what but I remember being there and the and seeing the come and you you saw you saw the the you know the you know you knew first of all that wasn't feeling good previously in the summer and You felt like this could affect the Reb's Gash, the Reb's gaz could be affected. So you imagine one day, a second day, a third day. So you're sitting in court, you know, the Reb is now going to the for this. I mean, you know, what does aud feel? Any anybody, you don't have to be a bigass to to to to feel that, you know? So it wasn't like, oh, we're sitting in the court and we're like, it was it was a very intense experience. Very intense experience. Um um there's also that there were some Yeah, there was some also that came. >> My father was there every day. He was here in New York the whole time he came. He was there the whole time. Um but there were others, you know, there was uh wasn't a lot. the courtroom wasn't so big you know but there were there were um you know I remember like there was a he came and spoke because they were asking question different question I remember one part that how the judge I think it was right in the beginning I remember how the judge said that the purpose of this case what we have to figure out is what was the intent of the before the stalkus we you know that that that's what we have to get to and many times it came up so someone said what is this relevant like it's relevant because the was and because that's the way he would act >> I always wondered that because I know in other situations courts don't like to deal with >> they would they were going correct they were going through Jewish law Because the judge understood he accepted that the mindset of the fa would be to act in Jewish law and therefore we have to understand what is in Jewish law to be able to that's why it was literally a day about this lying and a mission one mission a second mission pash arguing like you know and and in general the whole case was like that there was a lot of inanim of tyra that was part of the part of the case um I'm just trying to think right now I did I didn't really think about those details in a long time. Um but there was many many many stages in in the court was of course um Gerari spoke there was many >> there was there was many huh he wasari was what I remember at least he basically was they were trying they probably were trying to get something from him >> where he put he was >> I think yeah I think he was on testimony >> the translator >> could be >> I don't remember right But his whole goal was that they they basically shouldn't get through to him. They shouldn't. So he was literally ding them back. Every question they asked what's the like he would ask five questions on their question. It was it was a very interesting testimony. I I don't know if we have to go into this more but it was it was there was a whole a whole list of of of of witnesses and and so on. And um there was at one point this is a famous thing when when when they were complaining about the the bahim who are the people that are here in the courtroom and the judge said the judge said to me again I don't remember exactly the language but he said to me they're acting in admirable way like everyone's quiet and everyone's this like fake he was he wanted an open courtroom and people should be able to come etc. So that was you know that was most of the case. Um of course it came the day that the that they had the the Rebbitson's testimony >> played. >> Yeah. So this I remember vividly you know um uh they brought this little machine in those days they it was similar like to what we used to have at home like a monitor where you have a VHS that goes in and it's like a small screen what it was like a a smaller machine a video machine basically and it was like on one of the tables or it was like on a high thing it was like it was it was maybe like it was one of the count I'm not sure it was somewhere they placed it for the judge to be able to look at it. Um, and and and they they started playing a certain part that they want to present to the to the to the judge and I didn't see I don't know now if it was like in a way that I couldn't see it or if I felt like I I shouldn't be looking. I don't remember right now, but I know that I didn't see the Rebbitson, you know, talking. Um, but they it was quiet and they played and this is the way I remember it. Okay. I I there's different uh versions and one day maybe maybe it's even in the transcript or whatever it is but um of course we were all very heightened and and and and paying attention and and um and they they they they played something and right away the other side said objection your honor and I don't remember the reason for the objection like you know it's like now that I think of it it's like the of course I'm going to say it now but everyone knows you know the said that they asked the debson the question of in your opinion who do this farm belong to and the debson answered that my father and this belong to other the I'm not saying the exact lion but the the point of it is that the belong to because my father belonged to the in other words the the's life is is all all all that's what it is so of course you know so they played it so I mean you can imagine it's not exactly in in American In Jewish prudence, you have a a concept like this that a person belongs to the to the or whatever it is. But they said, you know, objection, your honor. And the way I remember it, the judge said objection sustained, which means he accepted the objection. But interesting, very interesting. I remember he was shaking his head and it was like that. That's the way I remember it. I don't remember. There's some people said wow >> I heard I heard remarkable >> remarkable it it's not a it could be that there was another word it could be I the way I remember it is but but that objection and he said sustained like he he accepted kilu that legally it doesn't have a place which is which if that's true again I one day we'll find out in the transcript maybe I got it wrong but interesting very interesting that's the way I remember he was like shaking his head and the truth is that was that was a time when we saw an expression of the judge. I mean later now we hear that there's a story with his daughter that said that that there was this remarkable that that there's actually a story which I don't know if it's true that that his daughter said that he spoke about the case and that it was going a certain direction and till this remarkable until until this remarkable woman said, you know, what she said. So that was um >> then we have the the Reb said that that that had a big right. >> Yeah. That was after that that uh the Reb said that that uh the Reb said that that's what that's what made the case. That's that you know that was which that deserves a whole whole separate conversation. What does that mean and why? And um we'll have if we'll have time. Um >> so this starts with this kiss slave and it goes for what 2 3 weeks. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was it was uh it was I think 3 weeks I think it was. I I don't remember the days exactly when it started when it finished. Um so that was h it's one of my memories of of which which leads us into the something that's important to talk about is um that was it was uh it was Kaneka and um actually I think the rabbitson's testimony was what they showed also was Kanekah Khan I don't remember the days exactly but there was on Khan in middle of Kaneka excuse me was was uh was a rally and the way it used to work was I believe and correct me if I'm wrong that there were rallies for kids and there were rallies sometimes that there was forum and for for the for the for the senior citizens they would have a rally a rally they would have a would come and speak to them and that particular rally was a combination of the children and this now it could be later that became more normal but I think at that time it was like a kesh Um and it was the same day it was it was while while there was a court that I was having a rally of 70. So I remember as a bak I was like torn you know on one hand I I want to be there I want to be in court you know etc etc and but that I was talking about so this was going on in my own mind you know and uh so I I remember I was sitting in court I was like looking at the time of what you know what it's going to take to get 70 and I waited and then I dashed out I remember running down the steps going down to the subway getting on the subway I arrived right before the inseam in front of um but it was already a time when usually you try to get in and you do different things but it was there was a speaker outside I don't know if it was always that way but there was a speaker outside and right I was standing on the steps I think I was standing on the steps of suddenly I was listening outside which is strange obviously I wouldn't normally you know agree to that but that's what that's what happened I arrived and I came on time for the for the and the reason I I say this is because this This was like, you know, this was like really the beginning of the Reba, you know, starting to reveal, you know, more directly about the case. I mean most of it will be Khan at the end of Khaneka but but at least the way it felt like the Reb the Reb was talking about the the kids and the seniors and beautiful beautiful but then the Reb spoke that that it's also to all the people around the world and the Reb starts speaking about creating and expanding the work of the children of the of the seniors which and everything in between which is a kabad. basically Kabad is is is all ages and and and that's where Kabad is and the Reb then basically was talking how they have to we have to start increasing and making uh you know everywhere and the Reb said that there's going to be the Reb is going to participate in in the these in this expansion and this work from the Reb would be giving you know certain certain financial help which was of course And and then the Reb also in that in that spoke about spoke about that that that uh that there has to be that there has that oh that that I want to be careful here exactly what happened there in the next day. But the Reb spoke about that there should be fabition um uh throughout Khan and that and and and and the Reb concluded with saying that they should have a number of they should sing and then the Reb said they should sing the which is and the Reb said clearly in that in that about the take away the take away the challenges again I don't remember exactly but it was clearly alluding to what's happening and you have to overcome that with with sim and with and with this work and so on and um and then they sang and it was the was clapping and and and being you know encouraging the sim I know that someone mentioned to me and I I went to the video you could you could go to the video you'll see you look pett clapping it you you almost could see on the video the is right now it's a and this is on the on the you know it's like it wasn't like just a happy sim and the is clapping it was like a intensity again I'm I'm not giving I at least I shouldn't give on on on the rabbi I don't uh whatever I don't think it's right but I heard this from someone and I and I connected with it even even then in terms of of you know what was happening at the time Um so that was that was the the rally. Uh so that was like a very clear thing where the Reb is talking about Kabad and making new Kabad and doing all that connected with the challenges and the problems and and etc. That was like on some level that was there in in the rally, you know. And then came Shabas Khan and Shabas Khan. The Reb then um the point that I just want to want to mention is the Reb said then that that there has to be and there therefore there should be of remember Shabas Khan was Khan was Shabas Sunday was Khan. So you're talking it's a day before then but the Reb is speaking how we have to make that the should be both the Reb was talking about and and all and to do the work and the Reb mentioned about what he spoke at the rally you know of of of of and and um and Shabas the said that that therefore he's going to make a faban on matzah shabas which was unusual. Now there was there was an announced Fabrangan from the Mashim insean on Mat Shabas and it could be was because of something of the Reb saying that there should be Fabangans and so the Reb said like I know there's a but surely they won't they won't mind they won't be mak and therefore they should make their faban on Sunday morning they should make the faban and the Reb spoke that there needs to be faban there needs to be and there needs to be working on on you know on on so so that's that was the shabas no right after shabas is is I would say that faban was probably the most someone wants to understand >> says that was like the time when the rebba when the rebba shared um uh you know the rebba right away acknowledged that this is this this or maybe that was Sunday night that it's any but the Reb spoke about the Reb spoke in a very clear way that the Reb said that they're coming and saying that that lobavich is not pil they're not active and the Reb spoke about active etc and you would think the says how could you say such a Of course it has it has no basis and from the from after from this kiss there's a and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and so on and so forth. How could you even say that? So the Reb the Reb said that so you they're saying they're saying something completely not not true and the Reb brought an example by the Alterba they were making a claim on the Alterba that that he's looking when they arrested him they were looking that he wants he wants kingship to be a king of Israel or that he wants to it's a rebellion kind the thing because the doctor said that he saw in Albba a yearning for something that he will ne never be able to achieve or something like that and uh the Reb said of course what they thought was not true but it there was something of an ems in it that yearning for malian of malos and I'm forgetting now what exactly the vart was but that that there was some truth that that that that he just didn't understand it. The doctor didn't understand it and therefore thought that there's something else but there's there's something there. So the Reb is saying the same thing here that if there's a T on you even if it's totally you know incorrect so what does it mean to you? What do you what do you what what does it mean for you? So the Reb said that the Reb brought a story of the of the Gumar that the story of Naktim Bengorian the Naktim Bengorian was incredible about stock he gave more stuck than most people but he didn't do as much as he could and then the says of that he had with his daughter terrible things the Reb said there was there was there was there was there was a tragedy there was difficulties and the Reb said. So what you so what what does the say that that um he didn't do it he didn't do the way he could have done or the way he should have done and uh and therefore that that therefore that's what happened. So the Reb said the same thing here that t it's not true and there was a day is done and everything else but it seems like that we have for more and therefore it seems like that it wasn't and and it wasn't as much as it could be and we have more and therefore what's the answer? The answer is that we have to do more and therefore the Reb said therefore. So the Reb is right now explaining about the Tina against bringing in the story of the alterba which of course you know was and and later the Reb is going to talk about the in and therefore what is the answer and the Reb said and therefore there should be in one of the things the Reb said was that any place that where for some strange reason there's no there should be a it's interesting because it's like you're talking about right and you look today you'll see how many there were I mean there was so many places didn't have but the is like saying you know that there's not a kabad there has to be a kabad over there so that was like a whole new language you know and therefore it should there should be you know kabad in every place etc etc. Um and it came out that like that's the and the answer is to be able to you know to be able to do that and there another said was that the says it's a mitzvah to publicize people that do a mitzvah and even though there's reasons people don't want to but because others will learn from it and they'll bring them to do also. So therefore the Reb says the Reb brought us the story of Ruven that he that that it says that if he knew that it would be written about him in the he would he would he would have taken care of things differently. How could you say how could you say that? But still we say that and therefore the Reb says the Reb wants that there should beim all over that there should be of and and all the of of and everything else of of and they should take pictures of it and they should send in reports and pictures to the everything from Yudis until Yudavas and they should send in everything that took place basically in Labavich during that time and you have to remember this is by night. So the Reb is saying now that and and and there was actually a call I believe said that everyone the only had one day more to do and make pictures the way the Reb wanted it was that they should read pictures and actually >> about so and the Reb said that they'll come back and then so there'll be 30 days of the work of of Lavich and then 30 days later basically they should have the book by then >> an album >> an album so the Reb is basically saying that just like so we're saying now that we should add in our activities we should be activities and this is like an answer to this Tina that should not put >> and and that happened uh everyone sent in many went out they had their public lightings with a signabage you know even though they maybe normally didn't have a sign but it was it was it was like an answer to this >> I think that's from the no >> yeah I think there was I should on the on the >> I think those Yeah. And then they they they printed a book, a gorgeous book with Seami on the front page with light coming out of See, all the windows of Seamdi and the and the the the the name of the book was let there be light. And what it is, this is like the first time that you had a book like that with from all over the world, every country with a some picture to, you know, it gave somewhat of a breath of understanding of the work of Lababich even though it was officially all about Kaneka, but actually you go to the introduction of that book and it has it has in front about the rally. doesn't I don't know if it says about the rally but it talks about the and and in other words the whole book was literally the of the and the and the instruction that's what they made it was a gorgeous fourcolor book in those days that was you know a big deal and that was the book of the first book that the Reba gave straight out of this whole court case of everything this is was like the first step um later in that and what was the next was all about this a whole thing about the and how the the visit of the to you know and how we should continue and the reb was asking questions about it I'm not going to go into it now but the very fact that that whole was about the about what was the whole thing was how about knowing that he can he can he should expand spreading and together with that Kabad and making a book and everything else. It started becoming clear that the Reb saw this as a as a kitrog and a China and he was learning from the alterba and now we have to just like but there's before Petborg and after Petborg that has to go in in a different level and I want to tell you I you know I thought about that many times you know you later on that year And the next year it was a whole new language about going where the spoke openly that everybody has the opportunity to go and everyone should go. That's why I'm saying it started but it was in a whole new direction and I I don't know but I would imagine if someone did a study of how many houses were growth every year until the court case and then from the court case on it's literally Far Petber and Peterberg. In other words, the the the the the whole case the whole and afterward the Reb started doing doing many different things in a whole new way and the Reb expected that um you know I'm I'm jumping ahead but in which is still before the it was still before the verdict the spoke a whole and it was mug it was it was edited by the Reb a whole about starting new and the Reb says over there that that's a language from now and and the future the Reb us the the the becoming and becoming is to every single one and then the Reb uses a lash which is is is very unusual. The says, "Test me in this." You know, it's a famous thing that says it's like that that you you could test Hashem that that it's that says actually it's interesting the Reb says over there that after three decades of doing it and seeing the success that now he says the Reb says until now you can't talk about something that you could sure be successful before you actually could show it. But now you could see that that you see that it was successful and therefore anyone that goes and tries to make that it's going to be successful and it's going to be good etc etc and this this kind of language this was a whole new you know level of of of of you know going on opening the expansion of and by the way you know I was an older by me there's no doubt that the bakim of that time many guys that that that I know friends of mine that went on there's no question they were impacted by literally that I've been talking and and and and and speaking about this because >> people people speak about this >> people speak about it became something that was so clear that this is so important and so and that it's sh to everybody and um and and and to me it was interesting because the fact that it ever says which means The Reb is acknowledging that it wasn't always that way that everyone could do it. But now the Reb says it's a it's a paved way. It's successful and therefore if there's any place that for some strange reason doesn't have we have to have we have so that it's very important to that was part of the of of the Reb's you know the response and and so to speak. Um so that was the first night. So then the Reb said to make a fab the next day instead of seven. So imagine you come to the 70 and there's a fabangan. I mean I don't know if there was ever ever another fabangan like that a whole day in 77 during the day >> during the day. It was a very unique you know and the Reb went to the Dante and I remember when the Reb came back how the Reb was walking downstairs and you probably heard this from others right as the coming gave gave a video you can see >> oh you see the corner of the video you can kind of see his feet >> was it was it it was right there like in the aisle that the devil was coming >> yeah but the angle of the video you you have to notice it you have to know that it's happening to see that it's happening in the corner. I never I never saw the videos. I don't know. Okay. Wow. You saw Sha I remember you saw Sha stander. He was either trying to pull him away or whatever it was to be honest as a buck. It was like like I felt like it was wrong like how could you do that in front of but >> but also it was appropriate the whole it just shows I now when I think about it it was >> it was such a matzah. He imagined you have to be you have to to be able to understand that you're fabul and the reb was asking the mash. So you know it was it was a unique time. It was a unique time and the reb came in and then the is going to make another. So you imagine it's shabas shabas then the whole day and then Sunday night and and Sunday night spoke uh um started off I think that fab saying that it's not rugg to to have a faban and again the spoke about I don't have a clear recollection right now of of of what it was there but it was a it was a whole fabangan the the main points that that I said from the first night was more directly, you know, on point. Um, I think it was more about alterba with the with the with the mushel. >> Yeah, I think if I remember correctly, the main thing about the kit was was the second >> second night. I think Kenzai Kenz Kenz for sure the first night was a major part of it also. That I have no question. But anyway, um, so so it was was it was my addict. just on a personal level. I mean, this really really is not here, but Khan by night. Uh, so I had two friends who were going on a to Jordan to Yardin to print a happened to be involved with them and they thought may it was we thought maybe we'll need a third person. So I also got a visa and I was involved a little bit. Whatever. We were close friends. sign it was Rabbi Shia Mezer and Yasigerelik and they went young Bahim to to Jordan in those days. This is before a peace treaty and before >> what was the idea to go to Jordan? The reason was to go to Jordan is because Rab Shia Mezer's Rabbi Mezer's uh grandfather was a he's the Dre and high circles and with with with ambassadors and things like that and um or maybe I should say that that's maybe where I don't know if he was involved at all in this but but but Rabbi Mezer himself he used to make contacts with the UN have to interview him separately. >> Yeah. you. Oh, you better. This is He has a lot to tell you. A lot to tell you. >> Okay. If you >> Fascinating listening. Uh >> fascinating stuff. >> Schedule it. >> Yeah. Fascinating stuff. So anyway, so he went and he and it came that opportunity where officially I believe was the king of of Jordan that invited they were going to be guests of the king to come. And I don't want to get into the whole story. It's a it's a story for itself. But the reason I I just brought it up is because they went over to the Reb the first night. at Fabangan they went over because I was giving a mashka before they went over. Yeah, it was interesting because the next night by the second there was a long about the mat of and how they went then to Tunis and in Tunis was very the was very disappointed about a lot of things of how security was being dealt with and and the Reb was talking about the the challenges and the you know the the terrorists and the I remember the used it was very strong lang language of what you're dealing with and how dangerous it is. And the Reb mentioned Yardin and also as one of the countries that you know and I'm standing there this is the day they left already and I'm standing there here the Reb is talking about this dangerous Yardin and they're they're going into it just was interesting the day before the Reb gave them and here the is talking about it you know so that was that was and um that was that so then there's So then nothing happens basically for almost another year till Hey Davis, right? >> Um after the case I mean there again there was there was there was a number of fabans where there where there was various comments various things you know but in at least right now in my memory right now is um uh it was it was uh you know there wasn't so much activity after the case after the court. So you're saying there were some of Muslim throughout throughout the year and it's also right before I mean there's I think I think this >> yeah let's finish off I remember that >> that was again it was also like to hear the to hear the express such words it was you know and also was created a hope that we're coming to the end of it you know >> it was unusual to wait so long >> it was very unusual the the the the judge actually said in the that he's going to take like a he said a few months and then it went for you know for all that time >> basically a year >> a year they say there was at the time we knew there was like this big trial >> that he got involved with >> that he got involved with I was a mafia trial or something whatever and um uh and therefore pushed off we we didn't quite know at least I don't remember knowing that he's busy and we're not going to have it could be some people didn't know you know I I don't know also I He could give out a verdict while there's a case also, you know. So, >> right. >> Anyway, this is not my >> sometimes there's Davis. >> Yeah. So, I mean, actually, it's interesting you mentioned uh you mentioned um before Shabas before I remember uh it was a parashion. Um and this is actually this is actually important this is important very it was always very special to me now I I think it's it's anyway it was it came what happened the next year wanted again that there should be uh and wanted another book I don't recall right now when the came like when the said But there was a to make another book and by that time you have to remember the year before was the first time it was it was like a people already thinking of the public lings everything else you know in a more in a way and also they had a whole Kaneka. So the next year they were told and I don't remember right now when said that they should that again take pictures and all that. So once again everyone did that. So I remember it was the was shabash uh which if to look it up I don't know what day it was in terms of kaneka but it was I think it was after and by the faban I used to stand right right opposite the rebba in other words uh not not m opposite like there's the you have two you know the metal tables one a little bit to the right of the reb one to a little bit to the left so I was right at the at right at the end of the of that table which is on the left of the Reb. So it was pretty much directly in front and I remember how all of a sudden how the Reb is saying that that that or whatever the lash was there came reports from from the from about the and so on and if I remember correctly the said then that it was it was it was about uh and and Uh and and and the said and I I could tell you I was literally standing at the and I push it. It was like like oh my gosh cuz I remember and says the whole thing is and here the it was almost like you know now it's interesting because years later uh my uh Shaskin from uh Montreal. He tells me that Friday night that Shabas Friday night I was walking with him to the Bir in in and on the way I told him that I heard that from from behind the scenes that they're expecting that there like know we got some word and now I know that there's truth to it. in other words that we there was you know known already uh on some level but it's interesting because again so you asked me before about believing and still being worried a whole year we're waiting for response you hear something like that it doesn't and now the is saying that to me was like wow you know and then if that wasn't enough at the end of the says that we should hear that was totally unusual he didn't have that so that was very special. >> That was the second album. Um, first one was Let There Be Light. The second one >> and there Was Light and There Was Light and it's a actually a much thicker book. >> These are two books. It's it would be kadai for people to to look at it. I mean this is par the it's like it's like an expression of the andb's work in the this is like the was this is part of the muham this is it's not a gosh book it's not a gosh album this is the was fighting a war and the rebba this was one of the you know one of the one of the pieces so to speak um anyway so that was that was the second book that was and it was like So then then then of course came Havis. No hate basement. Everyone knows about Havis. Um from your perspective. >> You mean my experience as you explained me before? >> Your experience. >> Um yeah. So again these are things that you know is is well known but um I unless maybe we should talk about something else. Go ahead. >> Hey Davis. >> Hey Davis. So look I was I was a bak this is tough. This was already I was a ded. I was already you know from the older bakim in in Zal and uh that day was a big test that that it wasn't so you it wasn't a usual thing but it was like a big test on everything you learned or whatever it was. as I don't remember exactly to the point that I know we were up early preparing reviewing some stuff and it was a written test which is interesting because later with your base tavis whatever so we so I I sat there the z was you know a big z with a lot of bakim and I was all the way at the other edge the other end of of the z all the way at the from when you come to the door I had to go all the way to the corner table mamish on the other side I'm saying this for a reason. >> The fire escape or the other side? >> I don't know about a fire escape, but it's it's was on Troy. This was >> saying there's a door over there or the other side. >> Okay. I'm sitting by the table and I'm everyone is sitting with their papers and their pens and the closed or whatever it was and getting ready for the test and somehow someone said something to me like that he heard there might be something and right away you know people are like saying h like that was nothing like people could think that they're trying to do it because of the test or whatever and I wasn't going to take any any chances and I just slowly like was slipping through all the tables and kind of getting out to the front of of the Zal. And when I came out, it's all empty. Everyone was in the zal, you know, whatever. And I just ran up the steps and uh um and I start running. So 70 and I was running and running and running. Mom is like, you know, and I guess I don't know if it was Union or I think it was on Union. I was running towards towards 770 and um it could be that someone else said something that he heard like maybe I got a little bit of a confirmation or whatever but you know I don't remember right now and I'm running to the 70 and and it's so hard and I remember as I was like it was between uh probably Kingston and and Albany and all of a sudden I'm hearing the niggan of the data there was already a tape >> that was made and it was it was people put it up on their windows on Kingston Avenue, you know. So all of a sudden I'm hearing the sound I'm coming I'm running. I'm hearing the the feeling the elation the the it was like it was mamish you know if someone wants to describe it in Mashiach is here you know it was like it was it was like beyond anything and I you know we're just running to 70 and um and of course we came there and the dancing already and uh it was right in it was at the beginning but it was you know already there were bah there were bak already dancing outside and We joined them. Mkatans a while after um the we were dancing at some point uh Rabbi Krinsky's car arrived. It could be it was a long time after I right now it was there was first of all after I was there for a while slowly more and more people are coming and then um after a while the pimentos came and they started setting up their music. It took time you know as it was developing more and more >> all the schools started coming >> and yeah yeah it took time and then then also people started giving out and you know you know and all that. Um, so but I remember Rab Krinsky coming and he was like I think he was even holding the papers with him or and he was like you know walking quickly into 70 to I guess he came from the court or wherever it was to get the to get the sack and we were dancing and um I remember for myself like you know listen everyone has their their their experience their thing but I remember like I I you know I said I said some but I didn't say a lot you know, I was I was waiting to hear, you know, you know, what's like what's happening? you know, I didn't want, you know, like I and like one of the special moments I remember someone came over while we're dancing. He comes over and he tells me and he tells me uh that they told M is downstairs and I don't it's hard to explain why but it was like that was like like unbelievable like was coming downstairs like in those days upstairs you know not downstairs so is coming downstairs that means it's a that means the is recognizing ing it as um I think I think it's important to say this because it's so difficult to understand that to to see that now but at that time we didn't you know people talk about heyis it ever looked serious or what I never knew of any of that >> yeah I when I when people say that I I I don't know how to relate to it and and and the reason is because because at that time we we we never expected the toa to share with us. Um it was like I have to celebrate that is going to be open and share with you. So anything the Reb did was like so out of the ordinary like I'll give you example for many years came then had never said a word actually it was it could be it was that year that the Reb spoke about or no actually I think it was it was either the Reb said in the Shabas the Reb said how the whole month of of has to be you know and the spoke then he started with and that was probably the first time correct me if I'm wrong but where the said that was like a big deal that is acknow why was it a big deal because the is acknowledging to us he's sharing with us the is like allowing us into his and we didn't expect it and when I heard that the is coming down from Ma that was like wow like you know this is it was like a gift you know and and it means that is recognizing it you know so anyway so that was once I heard that I didn't want to say more because I we said but if the is coming down there could be actually I did not think there could be but the is coming you can't It can't be you have to no one took when you know is there saying so and and then came and of course was was unbelievable came in the place and we were after with all not taking we're after a lot of and Uh for me personally I was I don't know how you know I I was at like the they made a bat. It could be they made it then right then for like tish I think they put it together maybe in those few hours. Is that true? >> I think so. >> Yeah I think they made they made a bim. So I was like at the end after the bimma there was like a table and then whatever somehow I ended up over there and it ended up that I was basically on the bimma like it was or right off the bim standing on the level of the bimma but I was behind some people. I never would have wanted to be, you know, with my face, you know, by by the I was behind a few people, but I was I was right there on the stage. ash and the whole the whole thing and I remember that that when I saw that they're putting aender it was like wow and that's also something I think the young generation has to know that there was never I don't know if there was ever before that the Reb spoke of maybe or maybe a tonis but there was no >> during the week like that sukus Okay. So there wasn't a regular basis that that today you know you look it's hard to think but at that time it was it was literally again it was like saying today you that so that was one I saw that then asked for the or something whatever I remember the was the next thing was whenever started talking and of course this spoke then about the parash and about that that you the brothers didn't send me. It's the the and and um and uh and then the Reb started saying in very open language, the Reb said that that uh that just like it was that that how do you know how to react? You know from what the Tina is. And here the Reb said the Tina of of the Kabad is not not pil and I I I could just tell you standing there it was like again even though now that I'm talking it's like you know said it but it didn't make a difference. It was like you were standing there and the is now it's hate tavis just a verdict and the reb is saying that was talking about and this is like by the and also the use some shyness the said this fus and the bbulan that we that we had like to hear the say ku about himself that there was fake it was very I want to have very you know strong lion describing that we went through a difficult time and then saying and therefore what has to happen you know the SBI spoke then about you know those >> never spoke of this includes teaching people said that >> that that in other words that brought it brought it to to the thing that even in teaching al you see the mayas >> may yeah also I think the rebba spoke that I'm not sure about having proi in in your room. It could be that mentioned that there's a number of the points that >> I always back to your point about things that the didn't do people learn into it. So, I've been thinking about it like you you want to learn into what the Reb didn't do that day. I start with learning of what the Reba did do that day. And if you learn the if you listen and watch and read the it's unbelievable >> how much the Reb addressed >> the it was it was it was amazing and and and I could tell you he we didn't expect it. People say what the Reb didn't do. It's like they didn't make with his hands like like it was Gil. It was it was the fact that would have made his hands and Mish would have been an explosion. I don't know. >> It wasn't I it wasn't something we expected. >> Yeah. >> You know, it was it was like you know the Reb is allowing us to to to to that the Reb should share that with us. Anyway, so you know the Reb spoke to it was very clear that again that same of going out. I don't remember all theness of of it was was an indication of going out and and and and and being a lot of actually I didn't but a lot of went on that day. Yeah. >> I don't remember why I didn't but that that was the >> I heard that from a lot of that day they went on. So that was that was that was that. Then of course uh that night was was a big fabi and everything else you know many people people ask me sometimes like you know how was there this this I mean remember the dancing went on vavis zavis shabas till the morning of it it went on a Friday night was also this never happened in labage and I want to tell you something when we were dancing in 70 there were people there there were from all kinds I say all kinds I mean the it wasn't and people that were daf into it a whole year wasn't >> it wasn't it was it was an that came I saw certain people that you know and they were dancing It was literally people people ask me like I mean it went on for a week and by the way the Reb at the at the last day the Reb called the >> Reb said every day it was like a yumpt of every day and people look are asking look how what brought that about you know what what what what created that And that's why I told the whole story until now because when you realize how much people lived with the Reba and all the challenge and and the difficulty and if someone lived with it, you know, it says or something like that that someone has is mourned over then he to see this on a very basic level. You could say it's it's it's it's just technical. You know, if you if you really were you cared and you really were involved and you really were in pain, then when it happens, you're you have a real the deeper the I don't know if that's the that's the shot, but I'm saying that's and that's I think what happened. It was a very simple thing that Anash everybody realized that this the the Reb had for so long and we were so waiting for this that when it happened this wasn't like okay people came together and had a fabina and had a meal and had a part it was you know I I I I remember like at night late in 770 like really things come down and and it was smaller crowd and the music still going. And I just remember like some scenes of of again we're after and all that. But I remember like it was a scene when it was literally a major part of was empty and there was like just a few people just going around and dancing like just without without someone even to dance with just like like there's no tomorrow you know late at night. I remember one image from Freedman. Now anyone in my days when we knew you saw Fman all day like that's not who you you would see three in the morning dancing dancing he was circling and running around and you could see his face he was like in heaven there there was no tomorrow that's how it felt there was Mashia is here it's like what else do we need you know numerous people like that it it was Arasa and and you know we don't know of another case like this in history when you had when you had everyone join in don't forget as the days were going on there were people coming in from from around the world to join and and different people remember when came and he spoke it was like you know that he was that he came but people came to show >> I think your father came in a limousine >> yeah I heard Yeah, I saw I mean it was it was it was it was wild. I mean because they came in was on the on the driveway of 770 and they came with the limousine with they came with everyone from Detroit the whole so the limousine had a window that opens and so his he was sticking out outside of the car and they were arriving. It was there was a feeling of elation and you know the the the I I don't think there's this kind of thing of seven days of dancing. It was it was it was and >> hasn't happened before and hasn't happened since. >> Right. Right. >> Yet >> I mean I want to tell you something you know for Baham at that time I can't speak for everybody but say for Baham at that time I don't know if in their life they're ever going to experience something like that. In other words it was it was you you can ask them. In other words, it's it's it's it was such a sim it was such a it was such an experience that it was it was it's a once in a lifetime thing, you know. It's it's and experienced it experienced it and that you you wouldn't you know dafka think dafka they they felt it but they did and um and and then of course then came how the every step the reb was taking was only encouraging him more I mean you know the reb knew his crowd so vavis the next night the rebb speaks it wasn't downstairs it was upstairs and and small shaw and I was not inside. It was packed. I I was not inside the thing. But the spoke and they brought a mic or whatever. And what did the say that that everyone that didn't give their names in from themsel or their mother's name, they can now give it. It's a special time. Uh auspicious. I'm not going to translate it because I don't know the translation. And they that that the Reb basically offered that everyone can bring send in a a note with their name and their mother's name. And the Reb said that he's going to take there's not going to be time because there's probably going to be a lot the Reb said or something like that. And the Reb went and and and therefore they should separate the money that usually goes with the with the pond separately because it's all going to kind of go straight in. And the Reb also said that because there's so much he's not going to have time to read them. and there just to put them down the way they are. Therefore, and therefore you could write whatever you want. It's between you and the and andu or something like that and and and you don't have to worry that someone's reading it. And the said that everyone in their cities could go wherever there's a caver of they could go to that caver to Ku to be to be part of this. And this never happened. I mean not before not after that the rebba should ever do something like this. So you can imagine for everyone this was like you know it's like you know you know that is saying that basically inviting all yidden to to to to to you know to send in a palm to us. was like a you know it was in of of of a a new stage so to speak >> and in his speech in the I mean he's he's speaking about that in the that thousands of that was like and the way he was describing it that's that was something special >> right so the next morning everyone was busy getting their friends their relatives There's anybody that wants to send in they have a need to write in and you know and even to write into the Reb and there were that I know there were guys that went to bar park were standing on the street and offering yen to write that it's it's a time that you could write to theb and and they a lot a lot came in then I know in the hashem had 100,000 kids or whatever they wrote them in you know auto automatically or whatever it was in Udel's office there was there was a number of places there was a fax machine. So people were sending so all day there wasn't so many. I don't think in those days there was a lot of them but they were fax machine. Yeah. So they were sending people were coming trying it was constantly going from all over the world coming in from that that wanted to get it in before the devil goes to the next day. I remember personally I was helping out a little bit in in in the Rabbi Krinsky's office. At that time Reb's office was not where it is now. It was where the conference room is. It's like near the driveway, near the driveway where the Reb came in the later years going into the to the back door uh where the car was. Um why was the car there? Oh, this is me. Okay. >> So, the come down from the stairs into the driveway. >> That happened that happened with after the foot. >> That was earlier. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was Yeah. Mhm. >> So, so anyway, so the rebel they're the car is there and they're bringing bags, paper bags, big bags. The way the rabbi used that there was like eight bags or whatever it was they put in, they were putting in the trunk and then maybe in the back seat also or maybe not, I don't know. But they were like filling it up and I mean just imagine you know you're there yidden are writing from all over the world in this to the and they're putting in bags and bags and I was ready to go to I mean it was it was forget about the it was it was like you were in a different world. It was, you know, you thought you couldn't blame anyone for thinking that the only place this could lead is is the better and better. Um, >> that's what J said said in he announced that this is the preview coming. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But, you know, we we it was just it was it was it was like bliss, you know, just to to see it happen. You see on the the deb is pulling out there's like I hundreds of people pushing to the deba's car and some guy starts knocking on the deb's window. You see in the video that the deb is mo motioning to yel to >> to lower the >> lower the window so he can he's stuck in his his >> so correct and and and what happened before that now so the car was there and they were filling it in. So I was grabbing from the the fax machine in UL's office on the other side of the room going I was on I went out there was a fire escape. There was a fire escape. So I went out of the fire escape and I used to drop down I was till the last minute we were dropping down whatever came in to someone uh by the car and they would put it in and we ran back a few times and then it was whenever was going. So it was going. So that was, you know, I was standing right there on the on the on on on the fire escape and they were they were upon them coming in, you know, I'm sure they came in later also, you know, but that was so that was obviously a very very special time that was and then the next day was and there was a faban that night vans and all that and then uh the next day uh Thursday night that was like the official uh a thing and that's when they invited the lawyers and I think that's popular. >> That's all on video. >> That's all on video. Okay. So, yeah, I was >> now I think we have tapes now of the other Fabian also, but what's been around for a long time is the video. >> Yeah, I haven't seen most of this stuff, but uh I grew up watching this. It was on um it was on >> you know that that's that was goodies of >> Yeah, the basic thing with >> Lu and the Yeah, the speeches. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I was obviously I was there you know standing and watching and everything and it was um Leo I remember that night I don't know if this is you know like 5 in the morning you know seeing a bale out on a bench like you know they would see him you know throughout the week you know there was no one that was just regular you know um aoponim then came shabas and um I mean I believe Friday night there was a we came and danced and it was a suda but I don't remember the details and then um and then shabas was was the faban and um shabas that was and over here the reb spoke about um the said that that the whole of anian spoke about And of is a test. It's all a test. Just the whole idea of a test is you have in the word you have nama lifting up. So the whole purpose of the of the test is to bring out by you to you know the the addition and to be able to be lifted up. And therefore the Reb said that what the only thing that's important is is what you have to focus on is the so um I know that it was that I know because the way the Reb spoke um I I think someone printed the the verdict and other things in English that gave it out. I think it was understood that the Reb didn't want the Reb, you know, didn't look look to that. I'll tell you that I know some Bakim that got the the transcripts of the court and everything else. There was some Bakim that put it away after that and 40 years. I didn't see a transc could be contradicted. No, people have it, but it's not it's not like flying around as far as >> because at that time it would we thought that's what the meant like like the natural thing was to have all that and then then it was we stayed away from like that legal details and all that. I mean, you know, um I will tell you there was a book later came out and that the deb was very involved in and there was a a whole section about the case >> despite all odds. >> Yeah. And it said it said it said a whole the whole story and everything else. I I I don't think >> Deb went to the aisle with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to I was going to share with Yeah. Yeah. I I >> That was later. That was like >> That was later. That was the That's next year. >> Okay. >> During the appeal. >> Yeah. So, not during the appeal after >> after. So the bottom line is that that that yeah we we we all years didn't look at that stuff because it was kind of felt like that that was that came out of you know from that but still the spoke about the whole thing was was a was was all about that and that not all about that was was there was about that and then came mas which was the night before. So we were dancing a whole night and um I remember I was downstairs in in in so we were dancing in a circle or whatever and there were that were standing like I don't know it was 5:00 whatever it was there was time for the tas so there were standing there with bowls of tuna I still remember the tuna and the salad and literally giving people here take some you know feeding them before because people were saying not everyone prepared for the tough So people here take a little take a little take a little or maybe this is enough for public consumption but um and and then it came came the time and of course everything was put away and and uh and that was it you know that was the there was no food and no drink you know >> yeah of course and then the next day the Reb spoke the Reb spoke by it's interesting it was a but the Reb still gave dollars and by dollars I didn't go but uh one of the things interesting things that that I heard and and it's it's it's printed that there was some that came in and the g was there was I I know there's four people that I I I I understand that the said this to it was uh um who did I just say and and mazimov And when they went by, the Reb asked them if they came with their wives or their family. I think with their wives, I'm not sure the law said. And the I think they said yes, which of course is very strange. that have never asked. You know, here you have coming in from the other side of the world and they're asked you came yourself, you came with your family, you know, is is this a family? Is this and and then by the of the spoke by the and there was a fast day but at the end of the theb says that here's the time that there are many people that came in to to bring to bring the to be mispa whatever from and and did mention then about the thing about the learning of the spreading of sudas or something like that and that and and the Reb used the lotion to the to the in other words the traveling the bothering of the person and the bothering of it the wife. So they're mentioned in the that you know that it wasn't just people came but people came with their wives which you know to me that really reflects what you know you want to understand. Hey Tavis and you know you know what it was all about not only for but from the Reb that the Reb made such a point you know this is family coming and appreciating it's actually interesting because the next year I won't go into now The Revson when the Revson said to the Reb like why why was the Reb so sharp about Bisley was standing outside the Lion that I heard from the Rebson was oh no I think I heard actually I think I heard it from the Reban said he's saying what the Tina was that they >> maybe I'm confusing that they came to >> something like that or or I might be confusing anyway scrap that um So bottom line is so in that by that the Reb said therefore he wants to thank everyone that came and and whatever the gave something in that in that in that range that the Reb said and um so let's be clear you know this is going on almost a week and up to that point the is thanking everyone for coming and all the sim and everything And then came the next night. And the next night was it was was a different uh tone, you know, different uh posture. >> Did ever change the course? >> It wasn't. It was it was it was uh uh the Reb basically spoke about the 30 days and I I maybe that sounded a little dramatic but I'm saying it was the next night the Reb spoke about that the 30 days before it was was already it was already the base tis it was less than 30 days but it's the 30 days to and basically we have to prepare ourselves for for forat for the you know and the said that the Reb spoke by the way to to to an to men, women and the Reb spoke to everyone. The Reb should prepare for >> that that there should be a preparation and the Reb wanted everyone not not only that they should have and they should be tested three times I think it was before from then till >> was something from before that >> yeah but here the Reb was saying that there should be that there should be learning that should be stuck and basically as a in in this time and then the Reb spoke that was you know it It was it was a very special moment when the dev started describing the medish of the danat and and I could tell you I mean some people looked at it like you say a change like like I was indicating like a change of tone they looked at it like a negative that's not the way at least some of us felt you know it was like again it was like it was in a way like a gilly you know >> we give a beer in the medish >> they gave a beer in the medish told the story of the medish and how they banged with their things and they screamed And that's how you get rid of the the and that's the etc etc. And then the Reb translated the Reb said that you when you're saying you mean that that that that that even to hear that language was very special that I was saying about and that and all that and and therefore what it means is that you know to to do all the right things and then the indicated that there that there was some things that were done that were not you know, and foolishness, etc., you know, but the the the the point was that the Reb wanted everyone to to um to add in learning and and everything else as a preparation for and the Reb said that there should be three tests and the test should be sent to the Reb at least that was for the Bakim for sure. I don't recall right now. And the Reb said that if he gets the test, if if if a name is not on the test or if a certain there isn't a mark on the test or whatever it is, it will mean that he didn't do it. They was saying clearly, I want to know what's happening with each one of you and and and you know, and I'm going to know about it and I want to be and I want to be aware. I mean you could imagine what hears that that that the Reb is saying this is coming after with all this happening and now the Reb is saying that 30 days has to be you know this and you're going to send it into the Reb and the Reb will know about it every Bak is like this we have to go and do this like it's not a question. Um, so that night we we for the first time in 7 days we went I went to my bed in the dorm on Troy Montgomery and um that week you lay down for a few hours you know you got some sleep you didn't you didn't have a regular regular night's sleep in the seven days >> right >> um so I remember going to waking up in the morning 7:00 our veer yure was banging on my door. I remember he bangs that door and I literally I wake up and my body was push like a block. I couldn't move. I was you know I guess when you don't sleep a bunch of nights and then you sleep and you said and everything else. I was I literally I couldn't move my body and he's banging and you give and you realize what's going on. You got up, you ran to Zo and the next 30 days in everything in learning and nigla and and and keeping say there we wouldn't miss a minute literally 7:30 on the minute we were there every say everything it was like how could you not the you felt like the you know the might get a report on that you know like so it was it was a month of learning of seder like no other in terms of its time and its and it's you know and and bakim we're sitting and you know there's there's even you know older bak we were the you know already younger bak but older baki there was wallto-wall there was learning so there was a biggest of of you know from that time all the way to um so that's that's >> I've been talking a lot over the uh many episodes about the book that the came out with, our days. And our days is a very special book because it really helps you to live with all of the so we're just coming off the heels of which is the month which is so many calms down but we know that is again the month that's recovered from the heart attack and then we have of the wedding of you have slave I mean this so it's it's the month and I'm missing a few but that's it's the month that's full with so I want to encourage everybody the set our days beautiful two volume set if you haven't yet purchased it many thousands of people have already but if you have not yet purchased it it's a very good time to purchase our days it's a beautiful beautiful set that you open up to the month of I mean here's just stunning and Each each of the pagra first of all gives you the whole story of the yumptive and then it tells you what happened by the reb on that particular yam and then in addition each has a section called the takeaways the like how do we actualize what does explain what the day means and what what should we do with it what should we do on that day what are we trying to accomplish on that day and many people have told me that this has become like a a staple they take it out they read it before the yam or they with the family. And I really really think that if you have not yet purchased it, you can get this two volume set at the.org/our days and right and if you order it now, you'll get it in time for the month of which is why we made this set in the first place to help people live with that. So order it today. So after this kufa and everything so then there was an appeal. Is that maybe tell me about that? >> It's interesting. I I I don't like remember when I heard that there was an appeal. >> Did you guys know that it's possible? >> I I I don't think we I think it took some time. I I wasn't like I I don't I I don't recall and I I it could be I didn't know right away like you know um like is about what what what what's what's right now what comes to my mind in terms of of of you know of of dealing with the appeal um was it was it was which I think was shabasim niss and this is a faban that I mean I I mit will never forget. Um it was it was very painful but it it was you know it was something that uh affected you know affected us deeply. Um the reb was talking then about the reb started talking about the appeal. I'm not going to go dk in order right now of the in the fab of exactly when it when it was but the way I remember it because there there aren't really from it there there is there is like one han but it's not in a clear way um the started talking about that remember the spoke about the earlier and the whole metaphor from the the story for the medish and and the Reb and and what happens is they saw a dalabay they saw the blood on the water which meant that that was the end of the life of the of the of the negative force um if I am saying it correctly and and here the started off saying that that there was a that there was although I don't remember the lush exactly but although we may have gotten rid of it but there's Agab maya um and that that there's still a rom of that of that left >> still something left over. >> Yeah. And the Reb started and the and the Reb spoke about and the and the Reb started speaking and basically that about the appeal and the Reb spoke with with with a terrible terrible I mean I was I was uh I wasn't there Paras you know in the beginning but I I heard Tamos and I heard you know Tvamos to me there was there was nothing like this the pain in which the Reb was talking. The Reb the Reb focused on one point and the Reb said that that that there are those that think that you could be that you could dance on on two weddings. You could dance on both sides. Basically the ever said started telling this story of aliarm and how karma he turned that there were the yidden were dancing on both sides and then he he and then to he turned to them and if if it's if it's if you're going to the bow go to the bow if you're you know if not you can't be said or something like that you know and the rebba that there there are people that are dancing on that want to dance on both sides of the and then the screamed. And the Reb was was saying that by by taking the is like taking a piece of the of the fab. And this is making another Levia of the Fredba. And he said it with such with such pain. And um and at one point the was like translating from what happened with and said gain but if you want to do what's right you know >> what's the referring to about >> it seems like that there were I don't I don't know details but it seemed like there were some people maybe some influential people or whatever that thought that you could >> at this point >> that that it's it seems like that at this point that that you could still you know in other words they they weren't I I don't want to I don't want to explain I I don't know I I can't give you more than that but it seemed like that they were it sounded like it wasn't talking about outsiders he was talking about about that didn't understand and appreciate the seriousness of it and understand that this is not a this is not say it's not a it's a it's not a you know it's something serious it's something you know however I'll leave it for others to to to explain it but that again we were standing there was obviously very very strong very painful we saw this this the idea that there was an appeal and all that was was a terrible nefes and um and then the said then or before then the said that that um that um this is a that is from the rabbis. It's not really my it's that that belongs to to the to the to the and it goes over to the and you said Allah like you know that that and they should come to come and decide what what to do and how to do or something like that. And it's interesting because the Reb then went on to say what to do essentially and it was it was to do and the Reb spoke about one of the said was about the idea of fasting but but I believe in that it could be in that the said the said a number of times that said in our generation it's not a thing to fast and the Reb said that there should be on the amount of a meal which that's the way you do something when you want instead of fasting fasting. So it was like you realize it was like the Reb is basically saying that it deserves a ton and the Reb is saying that there should be and there should be and there should be and and uh and again the Reb said that that that you know that they should give it over to the weren't there. they should give it over to the shulim and you know etc etc that they should come together and decide what to do. Now this was you know on every level this was you know this was uh you know a major you know s in in the pain that the reb was talking about and then and then this whole thing like until then you know you had the mist of the goad it was just hey there was you know why all of a sudden the and it was interesting because the lion the rebba used I this struck me when the rebba spoke In the summer, in the beginning of the whole thing, the Reb spoke very strong about it that it's that it's from the from the Reb and the Reb said to every in the world that it's to everyone because it's because and you need someone there's a whatever here the Reb like was saying the same idea that it's from and the saying and it's to the and to the so all of a sudden there's like this new you know idea the weren't there you know to give it over to the that now this is something they have to deal with and and and and and act on so then that uh that night I think there was a conference call around the country again there wasn't so many you know you know in those days but there was the they weren't called but you know in in in like I think there were 30 that were or or there's many on a call and there there was a that was saying we have to come in we have to go into the is calling on the is asking for we have to come together and we have to we have to come there and and you know what we're going to do and the truth is there was there was some questions about that. Uh there was questions even from Rabbi about about uh coming in. It wasn't so simple and you could say maybe the at that point were acting a little bit like you know when you know they many decided we're coming in we're coming in the Reb says to give it over to the you have to come in. So there were about 30 fulham that came in to New York and they had a they had a meeting and at that meeting there was uh you know they spoke about the subject and again there was there was reason there was reason to be worried like is this going to be acceptable because there were certain people that said it's not >> and you knew all of us >> not everything at that time some what I'm saying now I knew at that time some of it I heard later and but I mean my father was there and you know so and they came they had a meeting and at that meeting uh you know there was got up and he said and he said that in in just like and tough and when Alterb was was taken in prison they made a vad uh it's written in the in the that they made a vad and the vad decided that you know they were looking for a vad that that decided that they're putting everything else aside that they have nothing else and they're focused totally on this until the Indian gets solved that's what it's written said same thing we have to do here we have to make a vad and be ready to put everything away to be able to be there for the rebba and uh my understanding was they asked you who's able to do that who you know who who can do that then there were six that that that volunteered And those became became a vad >> and um >> I think the called it >> that was later. Yeah, that was later. Uh they themselves at a certain point expanded it to so that it could that wanted. So they invited five other from around the world that became part of part of it. There was there was from Australia. There was Shabsi Alprin, there was Nahm Sudak, there was Sammy Griezmann, there was a a group of Schulam, Raband Lipsker from South Africa and this became a Vlo but but that's jumping ahead. They were there. They weren't sure what's happening and and the Reb I I think it was when the Reb went. No, I don't remember exactly how it happened, but the Reb gave Rabbi Krinsky said and the Reb gave mashka to give to the middle of the week and that was all of a sudden they realized not only it's not but the is you know is clearly clearly giving and they got other the now some of what I'm saying I was we have to double check certain of it. But the Reba said, the Reb then gave I think it was Robert Krinsky that they should learn uh the mimer of of Malik which is the mimer the first mimer of the of the nus of the of the now remember this was the shabas I think that shabas was the shabas before business and also and the shabasik theb spoke a whole about how every and be safer from from a reb is is is is is is the life and so on. There's many important points over there and the nitri of it and so so here the reb was saying that the know to learn the the mime of the nas of of the and that was given to the that was one thing the talked amongst themselves and they they gave they they gave to the rebba or wrote into theb that they would like and the said to print it and they gave to The way I understand it was they gave that they want to print a contress with two the guy from and from the rebba and and the rebal and the rebba agreed and it came out a kris was printed it came out in those days you didn't just print what you want you know you had to have the reb agree to the pav and everything and countress came out with kris bamarim and it was these two mamar of the nas. So the that was obviously a big deal. Um and then the reba also gave other those there was there was there was other what's interesting was to me is they were like you know it was it was it was meaning >> at that point it was you know to learn the >> already had I mean there was already people dealing with court and these type of things and this was this was a different No, no. I'm not I'm not saying you'll see. I I'll tell you in a minute. No, the Rebel wanted them to to be involved. But I'm just saying there was it's interesting that you know they so anyway they came and they they started uh you know so they give me an example. Okay. Uh the said that it goes over to the like this you know so they one thing that I do know is that there was a a letter from this to And in that letter um you know one of the members of of the V was from Seattle and uh so I know he's signed on that letter and writing to Kabad that we would like to uh you know set up a meeting with with um that that uh or rather let me let me let me say it differently. I saw a letter