Jewish Hunters

We're going through the early dafin of the second perek of the second school and which deals about even and obviously a lot of but even just has it over all the things we saw already in these first two dafin. And by the way, we haven't seen anything yet just in terms of what's coming in the next few dafin. This is like the real lamdish are right around the corner. But the point is that we're going through the ideas of shrita. I think it's good I have to speak out to others generally as it relates to the idea of shrita. The first in what's arguably for sure in the conversation the most famous in chuvus made to be Yehuda. And this is a madura tanyana. It's in Yoreh De'ah simanyut. The Noda B'Yehuda was asked a shaila. The shoyel of the shaila, by the way, his name was Gumpricht Oppenheim. That was his name. Gumpricht Oppenheim. Doesn't sound like a polisher. But his name was Gumpricht Oppenheim. And he sends the Noda B'Yehuda the following question. We'll just read the opening paragraph. Mikhtav kibalti. Noda B'Yehuda writes to my received your letter. The in einenu makiro v'lo yodanu lei. Despite the fact that I don't know you, akh asher bo lishol she'iltah, meaning that you came to ask a question and I could tell from your letter that you're an intelligent person, hineni meishiv l'chol shoyel. When I receive letters like this, I try to respond. V'shoyel she'eilah zeh This was the toichen of the shaila. Ish echad asher zikahu Hashem b'nachalah There was a person that Hakadosh Baruch Hu blessed him with a nachalah v'yeish lo kfarim v'ya'aros. This person owns villages, he owns forests, asher ba'ya'aros and in his forests tirmos kol chai ya'ar. All the different animals of the animal kingdom roam there. Im mutar and this Gumpricht Oppenheim wants to know if it's mutar >> So this person is a very very wealthy person. He's a very impressive person. He actually refers to him as a Right? So he's a guy. And he is someone that for sport, for game, wants to go hunting. And he sent the shaila to Rabbeinu Gershom the Elder and he wants to know is it okay for him to hunt or is it not okay for him to hunt? So Rabbeinu Gershom wrote a response and he went through three halakhic reasons why maybe it wouldn't be okay. Number one, tsa'ar ba'alei chayim. Is this a Is this a tsa'ar ba'alei chayim shaila or is it not tsa'ar ba'alei chayim? Number two, bal tashchit. You're killing an animal for nothing. Maybe that's not something you're allowed to do. Additionally, Rabbeinu Gershom tells him hunting is very dangerous. And there's a halakha of venishmartem me'od l'nafshoteichem. And he says even though we find coolers in venishmartem me'od l'nafshoteichem, but that's if there's a real tzarah, for parnassah for example. But for a person to just go ahead and for fun put himself in a situation where he may really injure himself or get killed, there's something called venishmartem me'od l'nafshoteichem. So Rabbeinu Gershom tells him that there's three halakhic issues and he goes through each one of them and discusses you know, whether it's an issue, whether it's not an issue. Now we're going to get back to tsa'ar ba'alei chayim in one second. The reason this teshuvah is famous is because Rabbeinu Gershom tells him that aside for all the halakhic issues that I see in this, the amna me'od ani tamei al gufa d'avar. This whole Indian to me is a very big kaddish. Because lo matzinu ish tzayid. The only hunters that you find in the Torah were Nimrod and Esau. They ain't dark even Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob. And it's not the way of a Jew to go ahead and to hunt. In fact, he says, I'm skipping a few lines. Listen, this is a very not Jewish thing. As a matter of fact, the only two Jews, or the only two people THAT YOU FIND THAT WERE ever hunters were Nimrod and Esau. This is And the Derek Abraham is talking about Jacob. I'll tell you a double nifla. Reuven Margolis in his Margolis Ayam in the Seder Sanhedrin 38 he asks a kasha. In fact, he asks two kashes. This is in perek chelek. This is in Masachet Sanhedrin 27 and 11. The over there is talking about the story of David and Bathsheba and how the whole story started. A person should never bring himself to an assayan. Cuz David Israel once brought on an assayan himself and he was nisha. What happened? I'm on the phone with David turned to Hashem. Fascinating, right? David said David cotton has a wax poetically. >> [snorts] >> about the novel of David Israel. Yeah, David said, "I don't understand. Why not David? I'm the one who told him The way it is, they were tested and they passed the test. You were never tested. I'm on the phone with So David told the Reuven Margolis, I'm ready to be tested. The only thing I say to you is that I'm the one who told him I'm going to test you, and I'm going to do something with you that I didn't even do with the office. only do that to you. Then when I tested the office I didn't give them a heads up. I didn't tell them what's coming. You I'm going to test you and I'm even going to tell you what the test is going to be. David was lying in bed and then he woke up. He couldn't sleep. God help you. He went to the roof of the castle. He saw a woman who was bathing on top of the guy. Who was that guy? It was Bathsheba. So when Bathsheba was being she was doing it in a good way. She was being covered by a There was a big barrel that was blocking. Also the guy came and dressed up like a like a bird. Here's the punchline. David was on his roof. And he sees a bird. He says perfect. He takes that his bow and arrow and he hunts it and he takes the shot. In the meantime this is the It went away. INSTEAD OF ENDING UP HEALING THE AND BECAUSE THIS THIS BARREL exploded all of a sudden HE SAW BATHSHEBA AND the rest is history. SO TONIGHT I SAID I NEVER FOUND A HUNTER OTHER THAN NIMROD. DAVID DAVID WAS A HUNTER. IT WAS WHAT WAS HE DOING HUNTING A BIRD? HE SEEMED AT FIRST HE WAS HUNTING. Another Sanhedrin The >> [snorts] >> talking to David. He said all of a sudden this this so many of all of a sudden because of you was killed. All of a sudden loses his You play a big role in that. Because of you you have to be of it. I'm giving you two choices. Either your children are going to be never look destroyed or you yourself are going to be handed over to your enemy. There's no question that's the better of the two options. Says the Gamora one day the one day he went to the zoo. What does that mean? If you take a look at Rashi, he went lots of sight. He went hunting. The something came plus a girl. I'm going to get this, right? He sees him in the barrel of the gun and he goes after the deer and I got some ice over there. >> [laughter] >> It's not dark. I've run the yak off. You don't find this anywhere by your yard. The only counters that you find when never let the yak off. Now that I like that he went hunting but this is very parent that it is not what we're talking about right now. >> [laughter] >> But the in this true but so he tells him that really in the world of hunting from again for a year to hunt for strange but the world of a lot of he said the first thing you need to dress up there is a lot of time. I was not going to be able to it doesn't bother me that's a lot of time. It doesn't bother me. You know why? And I quote because the only time you find is if you're going to be an animal and you're going to keep the animal alive. But to go ahead and to kill and kill yours and other kind in that instance there's no issue at all of a lot of time. Says the new to be you to the only time the tza'ar ba'alei chaim is if you torture an animal and you keep the animal alive. If, however, you're going to kill the animal, even though you're being metza'er the animal when you kill it, that in and of itself is not tza'ar ba'alei chaim. The Chaim Muchak zokt the Noda b'Yehuda a raya, Chulin daf zayin amud beis. I have a raya from Maseches Chulin daf zayin. What's the raya? So, if you remember, the Gemara told the story about the chamor of Rav Pinchas ben Ya'ir. And the gantz maiseh is Rav Pinchas ben Ya'ir came to town and Rebbe heard that he came to town. He was so excited he wanted to invite him. Pinchas ben Ya'ir was very nisa, he didn't have a han'a'ah from anybody. But he he invited him and Pinchas ben Ya'ir said, "I I right now have to do a mitzvah, but when I come back from doing the mitzvah, I'm going to come I'm going to eat by you." And then punkt punkt from all the doors that Rebbe had in his house, Rav Pinchas ben Ya'ir walked into the door and he sees white mules. And he says, "This white mules over there Malach Hamoves is here, I'm out." Why is that? CUZ WHITE MULES means death. It means the Malach Hamoves. This is too big of a sakana. So, Rebbe said, "You don't need to worry about a karnalu hu." He says, "I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to do something to them. I'm going to take off their hooves." The bottom line is a karnalu hu. And by me being oiker them, there won't be any issue anymore. So, he said, "Rav Pinchas ben Ya'ir told him, "Tza'ar ba'alei chaim, you can't do it." He said, "No, I'LL KILL THEM. I'LL KILL THEM." SO, he says, "You can't. Bal tashchis." Great the Noda b'Yehuda. Why didn't Rav Pinchas ben Ya'ir tell Rebbe when he said, "I'll kill them," the same tshu'va that he told him when he said, "A karnalu hu." He should have said, "Tza'ar ba'alei chaim." Zokt the Noda b'Yehuda a raya, "Af she heishivly al a karnalu deken tza'ar ba'alei chaim, aval pikin al makat lu lu." And even Rebbe and even Rav Pinchas ben Ya'ir didn't tell him about tza'ar ba'alei chaim. He told him about bal tashchis. Zokt the Noda b'Yehuda, "This is a clear raya that the only time there's an issue with tza'ar ba'alei chaim is if you're going to keep the animal alive. But if you're going to go hunting, then it's not going to be an issue of tza'ar ba'alei chaim. But either way, this is the part of the tshu'va of the Noda b'Yehuda that we do need. So, the Noda b'Yehuda said that as it relates to hunting, tzar baalei chaim, there's no issue. Why is there no issue with tzar baalei chaim? Because tzar baalei chaim only is if you metzaer the animal and you keep the animal alive. If, however, you're going to kill the animal, in that instance, there's not going to be an issue. Reb Yosef Shalom Natanson in his Shaalos uTshuvos Shaalos uMeishiv, and this is in Madura Tinyana, it's in Chelek Shlishi, it's Siman Samech Aleph. So, in the middle of the tshuvas, he brings this chiddush of the Nodah b'Yehudah. He brings that Rav Ovadiah Seforno, who was even before the Nodah b'Yehudah, he also said this chiddush. And he says, "U'lfi aniyus daati, nemel mayhem, Divrei HaChinuch, Mitzvah Tof Nun Aleph, which is also Divrei HaRamban in his Pirush al haTorah in Parshas Bereishis." We mentioned this Ramban in the Hakdamah, right in the beginning of Maseches Chullin. And that is, we know there's a big machlokes Rishonim whether shechitas chullin is a mitzvas asei d'Oraisa or it's not a mitzvas asei d'Oraisa. Many Rishonim hold it's a mitzvas asei d'Oraisa, u'verishonam, the Rambam and the Chinuch. There are many Rishonim that hold that it's not a mitzvas asei d'Oraisa, u'verishonam, the Raavad and the Ramban. But the bottom line is a big shailah, is shechitas chullin a mitzvas asei or is it not a mitzvas asei? On the one hand, the Torah says, "V'zavachta ka'asher tivaseichah." On the other hand, you don't have to eat meat if you don't want to. It's not something that you need to do b'chumra v'seiva. And this is a huge machlokes Rishonim. The Ramban and the Chinuch, they both ask on the side that there's no mitzvas asei d'Oraisa to do shechitah, so why is it the shochet, when he shechts, he makes a brachah, "Asher kiddishanu b'mitzvosav v'tzivanu al ha'shechitah"? Why are you making a brachah? If it's a mitzvah, it's a bracha al mitzvos. But if it's not a mitzvah, so why are you making a brachah? And the Ramban says that the reason you make a brachah is because tzar baalei chaim d'Oraisa. And we mentioned the Shaarei Teshuvah Orach Chaim Siman Samech Aleph, in Orach Chaim Nun Daled, where he says that when a the shochet makes the brachah, it's k'ilu noimar, "Asher kiddishanu b'mitzvosav v'tzivanu l'racheim al ha'briyos." That really, really, the mitzvah of shechitah is not the mitzvah shita per se, but it's the sensitivity that we're doing when we go about the shita. And that is that you have to be sensitive to doing it in a way where you're not going to cause tzaar. Tzaar baalei chayim de'oraisa. The least painful way to go ahead and kill the animal is by doing a shita. And that's why when you do a shita you're being mekayem an inyan de'oraisa L'RACHMEI AL BRIYOS. THAT'S WHAT THE mitzvah is of a freig t'sholom bayis. Freig t'sholom bayis and how could the Noda B'Yehuda and the Bais Shmuel also said this, how could they come ahead and say such a chiddush that there's no tzaar baalei chayim de'oraisa. If you're killing the animal, the varaiya from the Gemara Chullin daf zayin I hear, it's connected to the Purim shushan. It's connected to the Ramban on the third day of the first perek of Bereishis. It's connected to the Chinuch in taf nun alef. The chiddush at first glance it's a kushya atzuma and the Sholom Rav Moshe Zarchi either Ryan Chullin he deals with it a little bit. But the emes is there's a tshuvas to this. And that is there's a tshuvas from the Chasam Sofer. And this tshuvas is in chelek vav. It's tshuvas chof daled. Where the Chasam Sofer where the Chasam Sofer over there was discussing a whole shaila about the tzaar baalei chayim. And the shoel wanted to say a chiddush l'halacha based on this Ramban. And based on it's also in the Sefer HaChinuch. And that is we do shita in a very sensitive way. And the reason we do shita in this very sensitive way is to be concerned about the tzaar baalei chayim de'oraisa. Says the Chasam Sofer after he's mefalpel with this a little bit. He says tam zeh d'haChinuch kasha l'eima. This whole tam of the Chinuch is very schwer. De'in kein dogim v'chagavim may How come when it comes to dogim, fish, and chagavim, grasshoppers, there's no peida of how you kill it? U'l'manda amar ein shita l'of min ha'Torah. Today's daf, may yakil l'eima. Why we're not sensitive to go ahead and kill the of in a way where it's not going to and by the way even though we still you have to get to see modern even if you don't But you don't have the halachas of doing it in the sensitive way. Ella said the ain't live noise halacha when you find the reason that gives the time of mitzvah it's a very nice thing there's a hair dish is a sensitivity it's a it's MS but in halacha mich kein mokem in halacha. Said the soifer it's possible to me that this thought of the Ramban of tzar baalei chayim it's a time of the crow but in halacha ain't live noise halacha it's possible that the no to be who the if he had an opportunity to be massive to the show massive I think what he would have told him was ain't live noise halacha because at the end of the day this is not area that crosses over to halacha the halacha of came I think this is an example of where the no to be who the the two schneem that even though you have this Ramban but it was possible to both of them these two the rabbis of that this is the way you go through to such a Ramban it's a Ramban it makes for good rate but at the same time when it comes to halacha you ain't live noise halacha it's not something you can buy halacha and if that's the case it's possible to me that in the world of if you're going to kill the animal there's no chayim and I have a right of and are you going to ask me a from you going to ask me a from the Ramban which is also a safer I hear what you're saying but at the same time ain't live noise halacha me man This is the first thought of the