Menachos 3

Today's stuff is Menachos stuff Gimel. And we are about 25 lines from the bottom of Daf Beis Amud Beis, Veromi Derab Shimon Adrab Shimon. Today's stuff's being learned as a refuah shleimah for Yitzchak ben Shifra Merel, Chava Miriam bas Malkah Freda, [ __ ] ben Chaya Leah. Today's stuff's also being learned as a zchus for Sarah bas Silvia, that she find a zivug hagun bekarov. So, yesterday, with Ezra Hashem, we began a new Masechta, the second Masechta in Seder Kodshim, Maseches Menachos. We saw that Maseches Menachos in many ways mirrors Maseches Zevachim. In fact, Maseches Menachos begins in almost identical fashion to the way Maseches Zevachim begins. And that is with the halachos of lishmah. In the event that somebody would do one of the dalet avoidos, not hadam of the mincha, that are critical to the kasherus of the mincha, but he would do so with a machshava shelo lishmah, how exactly would that impact the mincha? The Mishnah said, "Kol haminachos, every single mincha where the kemitzah, that's the first of the four critical avoidos, or [snorts] nasan bakli, when the kohen took the kohemes and he put it into the kli shareis, that's the second of the four critical avoidos, or he did the hilucha, taking that kayli and bringing it to the mizbeiach, or he did the haktara of the kohemes with a machshava shelo lishmah, the Mishnah said ksheiros, the mincha would be kasher, ela shelo olu laba'alim lishaim chova. However, the ba'alim who's bringing this mincha, because he has to, obviously, would not be able to satisfy his obligation with this mincha. Chotz, said the Mishnah, minchas choteh, minchas kena'os, those are two examples of minachos where not only is it lo olu laba'alim lishaim chova, but in the event that one of the four critical avoidos would done with a machshava shelo lishmah, here the halacha is that the mincha would even be pasul. We also chazered, we need this for today's stuff, that even though the Mishnah says in the fourth perek Maseches Zevachim lishaim sheshon varam azavach lishaim zevach, but when it comes to a machshava shelo lishmah having a negative impact on a korban, be it lo olu laba'alim lishaim chova, or be it even pasul, it's only true in the event that the machshava shelo lishmah was beshinnuy kodshim or beshinnuy ba'alim. Shinnuy kodshim meaning the kohen is bringing one type of korban. In the case of Rashi says he's bringing a minchas machashes, but he has in mind a minchas machavas. Shinnuy ba'alim would mean where he's bringing a korban on behalf of Reuven, and he has in mind that the beneficiary of the korban should actually be Shimon. Either way, the Gemara on the very top of Daf Beis Amud Beis said, "Leima masnisan lo Rebbi Shimon." At first glance, it would appear that our Mishnah is the way Rebbi Shimon. Who's Rebbi Shimon? So, the Gemara brought a braisa. Every single mincha where the kemitzah was done shelo lishmah, the mincha's going to be kasher. Not just that, but olu laba'alim lishaim chova. It's also going to be olu laba'alim lishaim chova. And Rebbi Shimon explained his position. He said, "She'ein minachos domeh lizevachim." Said Rebbi Shimon, "Even though I know when you learn zevachim, this is not the way it is. Over there, machshava shelo lishmah could make it lo olu laba'alim lishaim chova, could make it even pasul. But there's a fundamental difference between minachos and zevachim. Why? Because if somebody would be doing a kemitzah on a minchas machavas, but he would have in mind that it's a minchas machashes, everybody looking would realize that even though he's saying or thinking that he's doing the kemitzah lishaim machashes, but look at the pan. Look at the actual mincha. You see that really it's a machavas. If a kohen is doing a kemitzah with a mincha chareiva, a mincha that's dry, doesn't have oil, and he has in mind the machshava that he's doing it lishaim belulah. Again, masel machriach alav lishaim chareiva. You look at it, you see it's a chareiva, not a belulah. And being that it's nikar mitocho, that the machshava that he's having is not indicative of the avoida that he's doing, so we look at it as if it's a machshava sheker. A machshava like that does not have the ability to impact a korban. And that's why all minachos shelo lishmah are going to be kasher, even olu laba'alim lishaim chova. Aval bizvachim, Rebbi Shimon continued to say ein kein. Because shechitah achas lekulam, vezrikah achas lekulam, vekabalah achas lekulam. The bottom line is, Rebbi Shimon holds that when it comes to minachos, a machshava shelo lishmah does not have a negative impact on the korban. It's always going to be kasher. Not only is it always going to be kasher, it's even always going to be olu laba'alim lishaim chova. And that's why the Gemara began "Leima masnisan lo Rebbi Shimon," because from Rebbi Shimon you see two things that contradict halacha of our Mishnah. In our Mishnah, sometimes it's pasul, and even when it's kasher, it's lo olu laba'alim lishaim chova. According to Rebbi Shimon, it's never pasul, and when it's kasher, it is olu laba'alim lishaim chova. Now, we mentioned "Leima masnisan lo Rebbi Shimon." Of course it's like Rebbi Shimon. How could you even say it balashon bitmya? And the answer is really based on what followed. Because what emerged from the last piece of Gemara that we saw, that as much as Rebbi Shimon in this braisa seems to be very articulate and very eloquent, and he's telling you what he's going to tell you, and then he tells you, and he tells you what he told you, right? Seems very, very clear what sheeta is Rebbi Shimon. But the Amora'im really had a big mevocha, the entire topic of today's stuff, in terms of trying to properly understand sheeta is Rebbi Shimon. And the reason is because there's another Rebbi Shimon. And in that other Rebbi Shimon that we're going to begin today's stuff with, it's mevorar that Rebbi Shimon's sheeta is that just like there's an idea of shelo lishmah when it comes to zevachim, there's also an idea of shelo lishmah when it comes to minachos, which means we have a stira of Rebbi Shimon. And it's for that reason the Gemara said "Leima masnisan lo Rebbi Shimon," because really from this Rebbi Shimon, which seems to be blatantly the leima masnisan, we don't really know sheeta is Rebbi Shimon. Because there's another Rebbi Shimon. We need to reconcile the two Rebbi Shimon's, then we can figure out what sheeta is Rebbi Shimon. Hence, I'm not really sure what sheeta is Rebbi Shimon. So, let's see if we can figure it out. But at the end of the day, when we do figure it out, will our Mishnah be the way Rebbi Shimon or not? Now, what is sheeta is Rebbi Shimon? So, yesterday we saw that there was a big machlokes Amora'im. Three Amora'im that discussed what exactly sheeta is Rebbi Shimon. Rav Ashi, Rabba, and Rava, respectively. We went through the very brief version of what those three sheeta's are. Cheshbenu a little bit of the Gemara. We mentioned yesterday that the only way to properly learn the end of yesterday's stuff is by first learning today's stuff. Well, we don't have to recap it because we're going to learn the longer version now. We're going to learn today's stuff. So, today's stuff's going to begin Veromi Derab Shimon Adrab Shimon, the stira of Rebbi Shimon that we've been floating around. And the Gemara is going to bring the three sheeta's that we saw bekitzur yesterday, today much more ba'arichus. And the Gemara is going to be mefulpal in each one of the sheeta's, nafka minas, some postscripts. It's a long stuff that moves quickly. We're going to start >> [snorts] >> 25 lines from the bottom of Daf Beis Amud Beis, and with Ezra Hashem, try to get to 10 lines from the top of Daf Dalet Amud Aleph. It's one long run-on sentence, one big sugya. And without any further ado, zogt the heilige Gemara, "Veromi Derab Shimon Adrab Shimon." The Bnei Yeshiva asked the stira in Rebbi Shimon. So, the first Rebbi Shimon is the Rebbi Shimon that we just mentioned, Shimon on the top of the Amud. The Rebbi Shimon said that when it comes to minachos and you have a machshava shelo lishmah, it's going to be kasher, and it's even going to be olu laba'alim lishaim chova. And he gave a reason. He said, "She'ein minachos domeh lizevachim." Because when you bring a mincha shelo lishmah, it's nikar l'kohen that your machshava is sheker. And as a result, such a machshava cannot make a korban pasul. When you're bringing zevachim, where it's the same shechitah, the same kabalah, the same zrikah, so if somebody sees you bringing a chatas lishaim olah, he doesn't have that it's some sort of sheker, right? Maybe the reason you're saying lishaim olah cuz you're really bringing an olah. He doesn't see the sheker. And being that he doesn't see the sheker, it's dafka over there it's going to be But the Gemara says there's a problem cuz there's another braisa. The Tanna Rebbi Shimon and Rebbi Shimon said, This pasuk is talking about the korban mincha. The korban mincha was kodshim kodashim, which is interesting, by the way. Every single mincha was kodshim kodashim. The hergeish is because the nefesh ki sakriv mincha, like we spoke about in yesterday's raid. And being that the nefesh of the ba'al hamincha is in the mincha, that gives it an incredible amount of kedusha. That's why it's kodshim kodashim. But the pasuk says that the mincha is kodshim kodashim, and in the pasuk says "Kechattas uke'asham." Just like the chatas, which is kodshim kodashim, and the asham is kodshim kodashim, so too the mincha. So, it's a funny thing. We're comparing it to a chatas and an asham. Chatas and asham are not mamash the same, right? So, which one is it? Is it the chatas? Is it the asham? So, Rebbi Shimon explained, "Eish min chatas, eish min asham." There are times that a mincha is like a chatas. There are times that a mincha is like an asham. The minchas choteh, meaning the chareiva mincha that the choteh used to bring, harei kechattas, that's like a chatas. Makes sense, right? It's a minchas choteh. Lefichach, kemitzah shelo lishmah pasulah. Kechattas, therefore, if the kemitzah or one of the other dalet avoidos would be done shelo lishmah, the korban would be pasul, just like a chatas shelo lishmah is pasul. Minchas nedavah, however, as it relates to a minchas nedavah, this is someone who, voluntarily, because he wants to give hodaa to Hakadosh Baruch Hu, he wants to give Hashem a gift, so he decides to bring a korban mincha. Harei ke'asham, that mincha, as it relates to the laws of shelo lishmah, is treated like an asham. An asham shelo lishmah is kasher velo olu laba'alim lishaim chova. Lefichach, says Rebbi Shimon in the braisa, kemitzah shelo lishmah kasher. >> [laughter] >> If It's going to be kosher and number two It's going to be Just like an awesome But it's not Going to be kosher And it's not going to be miratsa Is we have a steer between the two of them and The first of them said In the second Says Possible A minchas nedava is kosher Which sounds like it mirrors our mission a little bit But the bottom line is for sure we have a steer in rab shimon How do we give the answer We know three of them are coming So after tomorrow Gets the first word in the sugia He said like kasha there's no steer We know Two types That could always negatively impact a carbon One is shinu kodesh And the other one is shinu baylam And the two braces Are talking about these two different mach shavois And rab shimon held That there's a fundamental when it comes to minchas Between the mach shava of shinu kodesh Versus the mach shava of shinu baylam The first brisa Where rab shimon Says Is talking about where it was a shinu kodesh The second brisa Where rab shimon says And a minchas is possible Even a minchas nedava is going to be kosher For the oila of the same carbon It's talking about Where it was a shinu baylam So a shinu kodesh is going to be kosher As opposed to a shinu baylam Over there It's going to be A problem What's the svara the svara that rab shimon said Rab shimon's whole reason to be mechalik between Minchas and zvachim Where do you have the anal out That you have by the shinu kodesh Minchas And you see it So the person's talking or thinking mar kashas And he's doing mach vas So there It's clear that the mach shava Is a mach shava Such a mach shava doesn't have the ability To passel a carbon As opposed to shinu baylam The fact that it's ruvains and you're thinking shimmons If there's an onlooker He doesn't know who ruvain is he doesn't know who shimon is So there's no and as a result over there It's going to be dina That it's going to be like Zvachim Anyway this was rabba's At the end of the day The second brisa of rab shimon That says that a mach shava by a minchas is possible Kichatas or kasham Depending on whether it's a minchas or a learned it from a hekesh Kichatas kasham me And if that's the case Mani shinu baylam If it's learned out from a hekesh Then You can't be mechalik between shinu kodesh and shinu baylam You shouldn't be able to say That the hekesh is only true for shinu baylam And it's not true for shinu kodesh Meaning if rab shimon is based on a svara Okay So then in svara you can be mechalik between shinu kodesh and shinu baylam It's the svara of rab shimon You have a svara When it comes to shinu kodesh you don't have it by shinu baylam But being that rab shimon's halacha is based on a hekesh Kichatas kasham Lichora If it's based On a hekesh Mali shinu kodesh Mali Shinu baylam I'll just explain this a little bit better Even though you could say that If the hekesh Is from zvachim And by zvachim You don't have a svara mechechen So then Maybe I shouldn't be able to learn shinu kodesh with a hekesh So you can have a hundred svaras to be mechalik between zvachim and minchas But if I have a hekesh between minchas and zvachim The end of the day you're to learn it So I for shinu kodesh and I for shinu baylam This was a vice kasha Rabba told him back My mechechen the camera of shimon At the end of the day Rab shimon is mechalik between shinu kodesh and shinu baylam Because of a svara What's the svara My mechechen Ah you're going to tell me it's learned from a hekesh So where's the to say a svara Said Rabba I'll tell you The rab shimon time of the kora Rab shimon is the time in shas who's time of the kora And he was the time Of the shalay lishma And as a result he was able to limit the hekesh To shinu baylam not to shinu kodesh What was the time See right The fact that there's By minchas is really learned out from a drasha If it's learned out from a drasha How can you be mechalik between shinu kodesh and shinu baylam The answer is There's one time in shas that has the places to do this It's the tana rab shimon Because rab shimon is always time of the kora So if you time of the kora You would say that even though I have a limud that teaches me that there's a shalay lishma In zvachim And based on that there's a shalay lishma when it comes to minchas as well But let's be time of the kora The only reason There's an idea of shalay lishma Is because you don't have The idea of anal out Because you don't see that the mach shava is a mach shava sheker If however you would see a mach shava sheker then it would be different Hence the svara of rab shimon And that's why even though rab shimon's Maskin that there are We move them in the torah That tell me the halacha of shalay lishma By zvachim It's the whole Beginning of mesectas zvachim And through the hekesh you have it by minchas as well But there's still to say that it would only be true By a mincha by shinu baylam Not by A shinu kodesh Now those parenthesis are something that we just read Is an amanak That's what a simon is in English And it's really just a heading for A whole bunch of Kashas and toshmas That the gamara is going to bring now on Rabba's carrots And it's going to take us all the way To the top Of daf gimmel On mid base So just a tiny bit of an introduction to the first part of this exchange And that is we have to refresh our memory Some of the halachas that we learned Now Whenever you think of it you think of two things The and very hard gamaras right But at the end of the day The one or two Bullet point halachas So there were two types of Carbonois that can come in the form of a knife A and a oila knife The oila Avoida was very very different The background for the very first hard mishna Of the knife What we need to know now is two look at Number one The avoida of the oila knife Was done That's in sharp contrast To The avoida Of the oila which was done But the avoida The malika The Of the oila knife Was done circle Where exactly on the side wave So the side wave Is that Border that's Around the midpoint of the mizbeach Where the coins able to stand and do different avoidas That's where the avoida of the oila was done The knife Was done matter Another is The Zurika That was done with the oila knife Is referred to in the torah as mitsui As opposed That was done with the knife that's referred to as hazah Not the same thing So there's two between the knife and the oila knife As it relates to the It's me chota sekra On the side wave And It's mitsui As it relates to the knife It's matter And it's With hazah So with that background information Look at In the event That an oila knife Had its malika done The maila Which is where it's supposed to be done But it was With a mach shava Of the knife Which is really supposed to be done the matter The rasha It should be kosher And the reason is My anal out Because it should be Based on what you're doing The oila knife That what you're really bringing is An oila knife If the knife Bringing is a knife like you're suggesting The matter have a over law You would have done the matter meaning The matter If time of the rab shimon The reason That rab shimon Said That brisa right it's only half of rab shimon But if time of the dead half of rab shimon Like he said Because And wherever it's mechechen So you see that the mach shava is A mach shava That's sheker Such a mach shava doesn't have the ability To negatively impact the carbon Well If that's the case Then why did rab shimon only say it's going to be kosher Mach shava shalay lishma by minchas Like mach vas mar kashas It should be kosher in the event that you brought The oila knife Or you brought an oila knife And you had in mind the knife Because When you bring an oila knife You're the maila And when you bring a knife you're [clears throat] always the matter So if you bring an oila knife and you have in mind the knife Then by definition That mach shava That you just said Is a mach shava of sheker Everybody sheker And if rab shimon is Wherever it's from the cell That the mach shava is not a real mach shava it's going to be kosher Well in that case it should be kosher as well And That that's the rab shimon The whole of rab shimon The shalay lishma Is where It's in minchas we never had this in zvachim You don't have that when it comes to a Oila shalay lishma The halacha is going to be kosher because mechechen But if We're supposed to take rab shimon at face value The way rabba is It for sure you are supposed to take it at face value Well Oila knife That you did the malika the Which is where you're supposed to do it And you had in mind Or you spoke out The knife The halacha is that it should be okay Because Mechechen the oila Right because again if it was a knife You would have done the matter So from the fact that you're the maila and you're Saying or thinking knife It's the biggest anal Mechechen So it should be kosher like rab shimon But the gamara answers very simple You're assuming [snorts] That if you would do the knife the maila love, possible. That's not true. It's true that the same was supposed to be my love and the same was supposed to be but if you would do the of the same for my love, it would be kosher. I'm married to my first mission of the same that if you do anywhere on the top of the it's going to be kosher. So what's the bottom line? You know if really could be done so the fact that you're doing if I was my love and you're saying is not that you're having my show my love is small. It's not my my that that my show is checking the my show because maybe really you're bringing the same like you're saying you're bringing either way you should be because yeah, but yeah, but you can bring the same I was supposed to do okay, so now everyone does everything but my love is going to be kosher but the master follow up question if somebody if somebody would do the same of not the but the same of my love which is where you're supposed to do it so it was supposed to be supposed to be and you did it the same if you had a mind it should be it should be okay. Why because my freaking over there because it's from what you're doing that it's not really a it's really an it's the same you want two things number one the matter have a law that has and it would have been as well. So from the fact that you're doing it and the fact that you're doing with a that's the biggest that you're bringing an and you're having it in it's my show but it's my show my show my in that case you should say it's kosher and by the way even though it's true that if you do the with the same my love but you have it's going to be kosher but if you would do the of the same my love it's going to be possible and for sure if you do a as opposed to it's going to be possible. So these are things that for sure it's that what you're doing is an because if it was a it would be possible. You're saying such a my show my love is not supposed to be a problem according to I'm reading the says no there's no because if somebody would see someone bringing this having a mind he wouldn't know that my show is a problematic my show. He could think that maybe there's a being brought. What do you mean? He's doing it my love you never bring the same for my love and he's doing it's actually doing the as well. Maybe the person will think that the that's being done is not the as well but rather it's the that came after the as well. That's the proverbial she she the same of the same and we know that the of the same is the same and the reason is even though the of the same had to be in a specific place had to be the could be anywhere and the reason is because the itself is not the same it's not so if the itself is not the of the certainly can't be the bottom line is you want to know why it's going to be possible there's no my show my but the same of the same my love the same is not that really it's the same because I would think that maybe he's doing the same of the same which is a same and be it kosher even if you do it on top of the but the asks another question on the same thing she is the matter the same with the was done the matter that's the way it's supposed to be right supposed to be the matter supposed to be with so if the was done the matter the same and it was done the same if that's a problem it should be kosher. Why? The same of the same because it's from his that he's doing because the same because if it's really if like he's saying it is number one the matter have a law which is and number two the same of the law which is and yet what's the of the same you have in mind it's like any my show my love the it's possible the my show my over here so again the question is the same that you did properly the same why according to is it possible? It should be no different than a it should be no different than a my show my with my show my that this my show is just a silly my show the says you're right and the feature is this common my show my love and in fact if you the same of the same what you say the same said that the same is kosher because is not like you know what are the same of the same of the same that have been brought as that cannot >> [laughter] >> because that's relates to and I mean there is a situation where is going to be my love for example in the event that it was a same that you did the matter or you did you had a mind it's going to be kosher. That's a big that comes out in the way the understands the of the same right now that the same which is a the first of the same it's not only true by the same it's true potentially by as well but the is not finished asking questions on we have another says the country the same of the same country where too in the event that the same not the same is was brought in so being an being a being an right you're supposed to bring the same and you had a mind the same which always be kosher because the same because it's that what he's doing is not what he's thinking the same because if it's really what he's thinking or what he's saying which is the same the matter have a law he would have brought it in because the same could be in that means if you do it in it's not the same so the to be with so if the was done the matter the same and it was done the same if that's okay to bring it in the and he has a mind that he's bringing really the it should be kosher now we know it's not kosher I mean it's kosher it's like all the same but it should be even why because it should be that something's off over here because if this was an then you're in the wrong part of the the same because if he's really bringing the same but it's have a he would have brought it in the the same of the same where it's my show my it's going to be kosher so every the same by the same the same the same should be the same thing I'm reading so the says no it's possible that this is not a my show because the could always assume that the same maybe this person is really bringing meaning the my show is not a it's not that something's off over here because maybe he's saying and he's bringing an I why is he doing it in the the same of the same the person's going to think he's been shame on him slap on the wrist you have no business bringing the same but it's not it's not my that something is off over here that there's a disconnect between what he's doing and what he's saying or what he's thinking and the reason is because you could say that he's doing what he's saying and thinking which is the same which is the same I if that's the case so why is it that he's in the he's thinking and he's saying the has to be the same the who he's been going for something the even though he wasn't supposed to but the says if that's the case this should undermine the entire the same my show my in the case where the person brought the the same I mean you could always assume the same the my show my the reason the this person who is doing the the my show my meaning the same I mean I'm hiding my show my not the is going to assume that this person really had a mind to bring the my show and he is bringing the my show the my show my love and the reason he's bringing it in the my show my love the my show my is not because it is a my show my love it's really a my show my love it's like a tongue twisted and I have to read these words my love who the he's just being the my show my love and instead of bringing it the way you're supposed to bring it he's bringing it instead of a my show my love the my show my love saying if you're going to tell me that the same the same is not my show my because maybe really he's bringing the same in the same with the my show my love the same thing where is the my show my love he's bringing the my show my love but he's having it in the my show my love I'll tell you he's bringing the my show my love and he's having it in the my show my love I why then is it in the of the my show my love because he's being the my show my love he's just being something but there's no my show my love and for the a very important in the that is over there the my show my love is not there even if it's true let's say this person who's having a mind the my show my love was in the my show my love and he was over and he decided and said to put it in the my show my love the my show my love in the day when he puts it in the my show my love the my show my love have you it ends up being the my show my love in the and it's based on the that we are going to learn the come on how far the come on based on the base in a hundred blocks from there but the bottom line is at the very end of the we're going to learn this I mean if somebody says I mean all I my show my love if somebody says I am taking upon myself and I want to bring the my show my love in the my show my love and instead of bringing the my show my love he brought the my show my love in the my show my love or he said I want to bring the my show my love instead he brought the my show my love so we assume that the that he brought is is kosher meaning he ended up bringing the my show my love it's kosher as the my show my love he ended up bringing the my show my love it's kosher as the my show my love but we need he didn't satisfy his because cuz the my show my love had to bring a you brought a and then to bring a but what do you see from here? You see from here that if somebody says you have to bring a it is a we don't say it's a in the of a to because really what the carbon is is defined not based on what you said you were going to bring but based on the way you actually prepared the so if that's the case with a in the event that it's in a in the event that it's inside a that a is going to be a and you can't say that one second maybe it's really a but he said my other with the he's putting it in a now the fact that you put it in a that makes it into a the definition of the is not based on what you said you were going to do it's not based on what you're saying right now you're doing or thinking what you're doing it's based on the way it was prepared so a with is always going to be a and being that it's so you're being something that's different than what you're doing it's my and it's for that reason you can't say the if you bring kitchen kitchen in it's still kitchen we don't say the now all of a sudden it became kitchen it's kitchen that was brought in the wrong place so if somebody is bringing kitchen kitchen in and he has in mind kitchen kitchen there's no there's a disconnect between what he's doing and what he's thinking cuz I could always tell you that maybe really it's kitchen kitchen and he's just bringing it in the wrong place so there's no from this that something's off I will tell me if you're bringing it in the wrong place that you become kitchen kitchen which I think is no such thing but when it comes to a you can't say that maybe it's really a you're doing it in the wrong way you're doing it in the because if it's in the it becomes a it can't be a in a IT'S AUTOMATICALLY A AS A result it's for sure you're for sure having a with a a that's where the disconnect is that's the and that's where you have this option but the is not done the says a zoo the baby maybe what happened over here was is this person didn't say lie maybe what he said was he looked at between the eyes and he said I raise zoom I'm going to bring this right here and I'm going to bring it as let me put it as a that already in that same we learned zoom zoom over there the is that it's actually going to be possible and the reason is cuz the only time we say that the is the way it was prepared that's if the person said I really like but if you said I raise zoom again it's a but if you say I raise zoom then already the gets on the name the definition of this actual and as a result I raise zoom and you prepare it like a so now you have so it was that's that was prepared like a and it's going to be possible what's the what's the the is that why is it with whatever it's a with a I'll tell you that this is a and the only reason it's in a is cuz it's being prepared as a what's the a that's prepared like a is a that's only true if you say I really like but if you already say I raise zoom it's not true then a that's prepared like a is actually a problem it's possible like kitchen kitchen which is possible but the point is there's no over here because maybe what he said was I raise zoom and being that he said I raise zoom so it's for that reason it's going to a a that's just being prepared like a there's no it should be kosher and for the good kosher and we're if we were the sheet of the right now who are of the opinion of the two that we just mentioned I really like with and then you put it in a it is a I raise zoom and you put it into a it's a that's going to be possible then it would be a fantastic the problem is we're not discussing the sheet of the in our we're discussing a very very specific sheet of who sheet are we discussing we're discussing the however going to being the has a unique sheet of in a hundred thousand from now in that who holds after they the is that if somebody says I really like and he ends up bringing a the is he's another that was in contrast to the sheet of the what did the say if somebody says I really like and he brings a it's kosher as a cuz you brought it in a the sheet of you what do you see from here that the of the means nothing so if a person says that I really like really you could bring anything you want and if you bring it as a it's going to be kosher if you bring it as a it's going to be kosher either way it's going to be fine and the fact that you prepared it like a when you said I really like is at the end of the day you're going to be if that's the case the that it should come out according to that a that the of the that [laughter] if you say I raise zoom it would be the same thing and those arguing that the only time there's to be in this between or that's all in the they hold of the is something what's the of the something cuz if you say I really like you put it in the wrong thing I'll they but being that of is that you is even but you see you're actually you're your sheet of well if you're the nether that you made that means that means at the end of the day I don't care that you said I really like I don't care that you said I raise zoom meaning at the end of the day the only thing that matters is is the way you actually brought it and if you went ahead and you said I really like and you brought it as a it's going to be kosher as a and you're even going to be your nether as a and if that's the case it should be true you say I raise zoom I say I raise zoom on the for >> [laughter] >> and I bring it as a it's fine to be kosher as a here's the point the point is in the world of if I bring it as a it's always a and if I bring it as a it's always a and it doesn't matter if I initially said I really like or if I initially said I raise zoom at the end of the day what matters is the way I actually bring it here's the point the point is if I'm bringing a and I'm saying myself that something's off cuz if I'm bringing A IT'S FOR SURE A maybe you said I really like who cares but I'm bringing it as a and maybe I said I raise zoom that would be a good time in the but we're going according to sheet of is I'm bringing it as a it is a there's always a as opposed to and and certainly and over there you don't have it and it's for that reason you have this when it comes to you don't have it when it comes to the is not finished I'll ask you another what would be if somebody brings a with is it's a problem according to I think based on it should be okay there should be why the of the and a and a is in a so if somebody says of the you look at the animal you see it's a he's saying that means there's something off over here so you know for sure that there's a disconnect there should be a and no given the the being that a could be a as well how so the when he brought his it had to be a right so so therefore there's no way to know a hundred percent so an the same could always mean of the same nothing but it's not that there's a disconnect because I'm bringing a I'm having in mind a so this is a a should of the same what would be if somebody bring a and he has in mind of the same it had to be either a but it had to for sure be in a so I'll ask you the reverse question what would be if somebody bring a meaning he's bringing in a she shocked of the same this is good now you had in mind to the right for sure there's a you look at the person you see something's off but the says not true cuz someone's bringing a the animal you wouldn't know for sure that it's in a cuz it would be covered by the tail so there's no way to see it the that's a good gift that's true if you're bringing a female sheep she says the female sheep has a tail but I see but if it's a female goat over there there's no tail so the says you have to say the people are not going to look so closely no one's going to really know is this animal a is this animal in a and as a result there's no with look completely different as opposed to a which is in a or which is a right that thick talk is not something that people are going to notice and as a result you don't have this with meaning it's true if somebody looked more carefully could be you would be able to tell the difference over the being the but the continues a carbon that's brought to the same meaning it should be it should be kosher and it should even be the of the cuz the carbon we know had to be within its first year of life and the had to be the right they're different ages so you would think one animal looks bigger than the other. That's what given as the awesome not so awesome example. Think that this is awesome not so awesome example, which also had to be a Ben Shana. Like particularly, so as a result, it's not much of someone says Pesach for the sake of awesome, you can't say, "Oh, what do you mean? This is such a little animal, and he's having in mind awesome because maybe he's having in mind awesome not so awesome example." And those are already younger, so therefore, maybe it's awesome for the sake of awesome not so awesome example. Awesome not so awesome example. What if he said before the types of awesome is that are not so awesome? The Torah asks you the reverse question. Awesome says awesome for the sake of Pesach for the sake of awesome, it should be okay. Why? Because awesome says awesome had to be older, and the Pesach Ben Shana had to be two years old. And the Pesach had to be younger. That's what the Gemara says. You have to say Ben Ben Shana or Ben Ben two years old. Love at that time with the ancient people don't know the difference between a one-year-old goat versus a two-year-old goat. Now, you know, we're from Brooklyn, so we obviously don't know the difference. But apparently, even in a a world where people lived on farms and people lived with animals, right? Where your means of transportation was a donkey, even in a world like that, still people didn't know to be and the reason is the Ben Shana because sometimes you'll have a very young animal the Ben Shana Ben Shana the Ben Shana Ben Shana as a result there's no way to know. We're finished, no. So you for the sake of awesome. What if somebody brings an animal? It doesn't matter what carbon it was, but it was a goat, and he had awesome for the sake of awesome, and the reason is that I said awesome always had to be a sheep. A lot of animals were able to be goats. So if you bring a goat and you're having in mind an animal that has to be a sheep, it's obvious something's off. Why? Because the sheep, you'll notice, has summer, right? It has wool on it, and the goat doesn't have wool, it has hair. So you have one is one, the other is other. The Gemara says no, it's not if someone brings a goat and he has in mind the sheep, people might think it's a sheep. It's a sheep. How do we know it looks like a sheep? They'll think it's a black sheep. Pundit, right? And as a result, if they're going to think it's the the black sheep, maybe yeah, it looks like a goat. Rashi says the goats were usually black, right? Remember from the different colors of the goats and the sheep, the brown, right? But the bottom line is that the goat was usually black, and as a result, that's why we say the black sheep, but he gets a shout out over here. But we're still not finished. Says the Gemara, "A goat or a bull." Somebody brings a calf or a bull for the sake of Pesach. Now, this person for sure is going to know what's going on, otherwise, right? He needs medical assistance. So if someone's bringing an or a and he has in mind Pesach. Now, a Pesach, we know, is a little sheep. So walking in with a bull or he had in mind awesome, which also has to be a a sheep. That's what the Gemara says. The goat or a bull for the sake of Pesach or awesome because you're never going to bring an goat or a bull as a carbon Pesach or as a carbon awesome. That's what the Gemara says. That's for sure awesome. Meaning, someone's bringing a carbon. I don't care what the carbon is. It's an goat or it's a bull, right? JUST THINK OF A BULL. BIG BULL COMES IN WITH his horns, with comes in with the he comes walking into the the person takes the knife the and he says I'm this right now. I'm having in mind the carbon Pesach. Any person that ever learned in is going to know that this is no so this is a tremendous and this is not a nuance. It's not a question of the white sheep versus the black sheep. This is not a question OF WHICH IS THIS IS NOT a question of is it one year old or two years old? This is completely out of whack. So the Gemara in a case like this, I'll leave it TO WHATEVER IT'S THERE'S NO THIS SHOULD BE THE CASE. SO THE GEMARA THERE'S only one answer to this question. What did he mean when he said that right he meant he didn't mean so it's getting later on this, so let's just very very quickly recap the first of the three opinions, which again, we already knew from yesterday's so there wasn't that much suspense coming into today's but here's the much longer version of the first it's the of Rava. And that is Rava said that the way to reconcile the two is that holds that wherever it's wherever it's clear to talk that something's off over here, that does not have a negative impact on the carbon. Wherever it's not clear yeah, as it relates to she knew this is always going to be clear that something's off. You're going to have the because the were prepared in such different fashions, and as a result, the holds that and there is all of the for the sake of awesome. When does hold it's going to be a problem with because of there's no if time is based on could it be that it applies even to and to the answer is yes. In fact, when compared he compared it to not the Gemara said because by there is a situation where you have a that you did how you the and as a result here too, it's going to be and even by there is there is a where there's going to be a which going to be where if a person brought an goat and a bull and he had in mind Pesach or awesome. So there too, you have a situation where for sure it's and in situations like that I said it's only that when it comes to some of the but when it comes to some of the which by the way, this means that when you revisit the first you have all the different as it relates to the of Shimon. Shimon is another because you see going to even certain types of and the is to fundamentally, what is this is going to be critical to understand the next part of the as it relates to fundamentally, what is is that really there's a the Torah it's got this really there's a the Torah that should be a problem. Other other because the Torah compares the to the and the and the is possible and even though it's but it's so how does have a right to stop being it's because was time the throughout and being that is always time of the so has the right to say that as much as it's true there's something called but I have a in the world of and that is it's only a problem we don't have and as a result by with it's going to be okay. And by the way, you can appreciate this a little bit better now because the is not not limited to it's wherever the applies, right? It's by sometimes, it's by sometimes. is not a because it's it's a time of the in the only time is a problem with in if however, it's in that situation it's actually not going to be an issue either way. That concludes the first, by far the longest, discussion of today's the Gemara's and really some that come out in the world of a leader Shimon two. Rava Rava said a different to be the student between and like come with the come with the come with the come with the come with the come with the in the event that the was there that's the first it's going to be and the reason is because it says and we learn from the we've seen like this throughout that there's one for all and it's for that reason that if it's going to be the second that said that is going to be a problem, that's where it was and the reason is a problem because there's like said it said so when all the to each other is going to be we're not the to and therefore is is going to be a problem. So Rava gives a very nice to right? Sounds very good. Be between even makes a lot of sense. Seems extremely logical. There's just one problem in all this. What's the problem? It's not what said. explained the what said. said when I right? I I know the difference between a and a I don't know the difference between and awesome. If somebody is bringing a and he says awesome. You see the difference? Of course, if you have the difference between a you see the difference between a you see the between and awesome. So if that's the case, nice good distinction, shame it's good right? Good but it doesn't work. It doesn't work. It doesn't fact check because it's not what said. So what said is not what said. And based on the words of it should be just the opposite. It should be that is going to be and certainly is going to be awesome. So because of this I mean it's you can't you can't even say what you're saying without addressing the so the Gemara says had a whole different understanding of this meant to say. I thought the way he said he wasn't giving the reason it's because just the opposite 180 degrees as a reason for it to be and what he was doing was not giving his reason, He was saying despite or in spite of. He's saying despite the fact that and if that's the case, it should be possible because that's a for it to be possible not as far as for it to be kosher. It's for that reason it's going to be kosher. Now continue he said that by Not my kitchen. That's the story for it to be kosher yet it's possible. So my right if my reason to be kosher so when he says explaining why it's possible but we're saying now my actually a small for it to be possible. So the fact that is can't be a reason that it's possible. So you have to explain the second part of well what did he mean when he said I forgot meant again in spite of Even though at the end of the day this is based on your ashes and being that it's based on your ashes that's the way this is going to play itself out so according to rubble shot in in is your Russia. What's the Russia is there and that's what holds it's only true if it was and that if you very carefully saying in the first bright side he's talking about the second where says that is what you small When it comes to minocus he's talking about why because of there I don't have the Russia because as much as I have a I have that is not something that I have and it's for that reason in that instance it's actually not going to work. Now didn't give a time right explain himself. He said because my cell on my he explained his sheet the very very carefully. So when he said wasn't he essentially explaining And giving a reason for you saying to do with a something understands no that's not a reason for it to be kosher. In fact it's actually a reason to be possible. What then was he saying? He was that despite the fact that it's such a big for it to be possible I feel it's really going to be kosher. Now what would be the reason that if it should be possible? Now if you understood a little bit better what the reason is that it should be kosher maybe you can understand a little bit better it should be possible actually actually explains. Rashi says that if you would allow a that's so obviously to be kosher people would think it's and we know even though it's kosher in many situations in my But also right it's for sure something that's not okay. But the bottom line is is that there's a to say that we are it's so obviously you can't allow it to be kosher because people are going to think that it's but bottom line the reason it's kosher has nothing to do with the anything the is a right it's why is it kosher? It's based on a now the is giving me a little bit in the If there's a a of then by you should have the same exact and if somebody bring one or another going to be kosher this is a meaning if the reason is kosher the way understands is because then by it should be the same thing and true yeah excellent point the what about according to the said The reason is because they're all being brought but if somebody bring a or or it'll be possible because the not really the way we look at them as we view them as really being said that when it comes to it's different it's always going to be possible even one and the reason is there's a the same the also it has to be so whether or not This would relate to that's already a little bit of a the bottom line is as it relates to the second is he's between based on this you don't have it when it comes to that's not what said gave a reason he said that wasn't a reason that wasn't in spite of despite the fact that it's that's the way it's going to be said like a show There's no over here can be my can be mincus the show mincus dishes >> [snorts] >> The is Was the person when he was did he have in mind mincus or did he simply have in mind mincus and the explains mincus if he just had in mind then then then it could be We tight that he wasn't being I'm bringing this mincus the show mincus but rather the way we tight it he I'm bringing this mincus and I'm having in mind the the of the mincus the mincus a about a is not a in fact it's just a says it's a doesn't even mean anything mincus if however he had in mind mincus then the mincus the possible Mincus over there is having in mind the mincus and that in and of itself of course is going to be a problem. So according to it's a super technical did you have in mind mincus did you only have in mind a pot? If you had in mind mincus that's going to be a problem. If you had in mind a pot it's not going to be a problem. Just one in the words of can be mincus mincus can be mincus mincus mincus really the distinction is not in what you're bringing it's in what you're being mincus It's not mincus it's mincus versus mincus I don't care what the first half of the equation was even though in the words of mincus mincus mincus and mincus mincus if it was mincus mincus mincus it would also be a problem right and if it was mincus mincus mincus mincus it would also not be a problem. What we care about is what you're thinking about not what it is you're actually bringing. But either way so according to what's the did you have a proper bad mincus did you Have a proper bad mincus? So the asks now the same question that it asked on it's a very nice very nice distinction you got out of this uncomfortable situation but it's not what the said. The what said what did explain the sheet though he said that's what's going on over here which is even if you would have in mind it would still be a problem right just say this a little bit better. According to if someone has a proper by it's always a problem. The whole of is when you didn't have A WHEN YOU HAD in mind not if you have in MIND IT'S A PROBLEM LIKE HE SAYS WITH FIRST IT'S JUST THAT NOT A REAL BUT THAT'S HOW SAID SAID A WHOLE SAID A WHOLE BETWEEN AND MINCUS IS MINCUS NOT nice but doesn't factor You have to explain understanding the way we explain understanding. When he said mincus he didn't mean it as the reason but he's it it's in spite of that even though it's that's very obviously a problem and based on that he passed like because of may come to be a If you had in mind mincus it's not a it's not a problem. What did he mean when he said what did he mean when he said again in the by being that it's the same thing so it's for that reason there it's going to be a problem if anything the fact that it's the same thing is a small that it should be kosher not as far that it should be possible again it's in spite of at the end of the day this week at You're always having a there's no of saying I didn't mean the mincus I meant the mincus if you had in mind I didn't mean the I meant the the is a and for that reason there's no way of stating that is going to question in a minute. Either way that is the sheet of so according to holds that by it's possible just like a when it comes to is going to be possible. What's in this of in this if you had in mind mincus the show Mincus not mincus mincus and that whole is a silly what did he mean when he said a whole what he meant was in spite of of of the son asked the following question. When said of all mincus so what did he say? He said that in the event that it's a the show mincus it's or if it's a the show that That was a second example it's there as well meaning the coin is bringing a which is dry doesn't involve and he had in mind the bulula. >> [snorts] >> the Over here you don't have this photo. That what the person had in mind was the kili, right? But if you had it if he's bringing a right so what does he have in mind? It must mean the mincha bulula. I'm bringing a mincha I'm having in mind the sum bulula what does that mean? It's very hard to touch that. So he told him back I'm bringing the mincha I'm having in having in mind to mix it. Again it's silly and that's why it's not a problem. But he told him back that meaning if you're willing to be so creative in terms of you're willing to not touch this then I think we have to revisit oil shalom is for sure a problem, right? I'm not sure that should be the case. Maybe I'm bringing an oil I'm having in mind peace, right? There should be peace in the world. That's what I'm having in mind. I don't know if if the sum bulula doesn't mean a mincha bulula means bulula whatever that means. So here too maybe it means shalom in the olam. My says the hockey hash that it's it's awesome zevach ikri shalom. So that carbon the zevach makrivus dam shalom has ikri dam shalom. So if you bring oil shalom and we don't say you mean peace in the world. What you mean is the carbon shalom. But you don't find anywhere the word bulula as a toyer as an adjective to describe mincha. What you have is is you have it as like a surname, right? mincha bulula that you don't have you don't find the word bulula anywhere in the Torah. So could be when you had in mind the sum bulula that's really what you meant. Either way the bottom line is we have three shitas how to understand the same the same thing. We have another said that it says sometimes that's why the it's like the that's why the so we have three in the first in the seder of today's daf is rabba. What did rabba say? Rabba said rabba shimon is and rabba shimon the only time there's a that's going to be a problem that's if there's no but if it's that it's obvious that it's not a real over there it's actually going to be kosher and rabba shimon held by all it's and by the way by some and even by some it's going to be the same way. But the reason rabba shimon holds it's kosher is because of what? It's because of the where every it's going to be okay. ALL NO AND BY THE WAY EVEN WITHIN THE WORLD OF BY SOME AND some the second was rabba. Rabba said rabba shimon zevach. This has nothing to do with rabba shimon being time of the crow. But rabba shimon is being over here. Rabba shimon is very much being rabba shimon held that although it says which would suggest that there's a it also says there I mean the therefore is always going to be kosher and the first prize is the second one is where it's I didn't rabba shimon give a different reason and based on the reason even should be kosher. That reason was not time of the rabba shimon. That's a reason for it to be possible. The only reason the only reason rabba shimon is saying it is because he's but at the end of the day at the end of the day time of the rabba shimon is based on the the third rabba shimon rabba shimon according to rabba shimon rabba shimon holds of by just like the by there is no in the world. Then why did rabba shimon say kosher in the first place? Because over there you said you said bulula. It's not a real it's a that type of is not going to make problems. But rabba shimon gave a reason. Rabba shimon holds like rabba that rabba shimon's reason or at least it appears like it is not really a reason. It's in spite of despite the fact there's an extra for it to be a problem I feel it's it's going to be kosher. So it's three ways to reconcile rabba shimon. Not right? Where's the kosher? A big time kosher. First of all according to rabba it emerged that there are even situations of and rabba shimon is going to hold that going to be kosher according to rabba. Huge according to rabba if it's zevach it's going to be possible even though from rabba shimon in the sounds like if it's zevach it's going to be kosher. What about rabba shimon? Huge according to rabba shimon even really a problem. It's only when we touch you up that it's this silly right? So for sure also in London. According to rabba the first rabba shimon is a reason for it not to be possible. According to rabba shimon rabba shimon is a reason for it yet to be possible. Either way the now is going to be the three shitas. That's the next 20 or so lines of I understand why the didn't want to learn like rabba. Who's the rabba shimon? I understand why they didn't want to learn like rabba's the other rabba. Like rabba because of other rabba. Because rabba learned that the rabba shimon is a real he's being that rabba shimon is a reason for it to be kosher. They held rabba shimon is a reason for it to be possible like we just spoke out. >> [snorts] >> I understand why they didn't want to learn like rabba's like they didn't hold that it's the reason they don't want to learn like rabba shimon because let's be honest asked a pretty good to rabba shimon. Right? What was his his was I understand but I don't understand over there what? bulula? rabba shimon the kili he had in mind the kili but over there he said the act of he said then he should say the same thing. He gave a little bit of a but it's because of that they didn't want to learn that way. So what was obvious to rabba on one way and obvious to rabba in the other way wasn't sure about. So what are we talking about? So rabba shimon says we're talking about the underlying of whether a rabba shimon is a reason for it to be kosher reason for it to be possible. It was the rabba that it's the time of the the reason rabba shimon is when it comes to rabba held just the opposite it's a reason that it should be possible and when rabba shimon mentioned it he was coming to warn so what rabba held for sure one way that that is a reason for it to be kosher and rabba held the other way it's a reason it should be possible wasn't sure about. Some say it wasn't rabba shimon but rather it was blaming rabba shimon either way what's the what is he wasn't sure about because he cleared the following question. mincha rabba shimon zevach what would rabba shimon hold by a mincha zevach? Now somebody asked you this question after today's daf. What would rabba shimon hold by mincha zevach? You say that's according to rabba that's the way you the steer between rabba shimon obviously rabba and rabba shimon are not but true it's a good answer. But this is rabba shimon's clear. What would rabba shimon hold by mincha zevach? rabba shimon rabba shimon rabba shimon because the that's is possible, right? Which was the initial understanding of rabba shimon the way rabba understood rabba shimon the and this is a the right if is a the rabba shimon shalom zevach is a mincha I don't know or perhaps time of rabba shimon the the zevach like or maybe time of rabba shimon is not because it's a bulula the mincha but in spite of that rabba shimon was saying that based on the the is that it's going to be kosher. Well if that's the case it's only that are not right? A perfect and postscript to today's daf. Says the that after asked this question and in one he asked it to rabba shimon rabba shimon told him since you're asking me a question in rabba shimon right? You want to know what would rabba shimon hold zevach and you're trying to clear over here rabba shimon rabba shimon right? By the way take this out of context rabba shimon is the shita that is above our pay grade. rabba shimon rabba shimon you think we understand rabba shimon? rabba shimon why did rabba shimon say we don't understand rabba shimon? I don't know we had three good to explain rabba shimon. So the says he wasn't sure of any one of them. rabba shimon rabba shimon he wasn't comfortable learning like rabba because of abaya's question. What was abaya's question? rabba shimon the rabba shimon rabba shimon at the beginning of the daf he said I understand if rabba shimon has a I don't say you can be rabba shimon rabba shimon. rabba shimon he didn't want to learn like rabba shimon because because of the question that was asked on rabba and that was that if rabba shimon holds he should also hold that was one of the questions that the asked on rabba and rabba shimon rabba shimon didn't want to learn which was that I understand the case of rabba shimon but what about rabba shimon that creates a question that rabba shimon either way he said he rabba shimon he didn't feel that we could be I mean on safe tight though and it's for that reason he was not comfortable saying anything about rev Shimon. And really, the city almost ends where it started cuz it started laying in my system like rev Shimon made a big deal about this. Laying in my system what I mean it's for sure the like of rev Shimon our mission. That it's not true after you revisit rev Shimon and rev Shimon you go through it properly, it's column he got on the safe tight to shove him and we're not sure rev Shimon cheated. So, we had the sheet of rev Shimon that maybe Menocal is a different than Zalman comes to Shimon stating that after further review, it's not partial at all because there's a serious rev Shimon and the three Zalman had to learn rev Shimon and even the the words of rev Shimon you can learn it 180 degrees. Rev Shimon Svara is it a Svara or is it in spite of? A lot going on with a lot of not coming in as we already recapped it during the course of the day. Really, the Mascona is that last line. Column he got on the safe tight to shove him and it's very very unclear what rev Shimon cheated is as it relates to Shimon by Menocal. Got laid early. Today is a Sham we'll leave the rate here on the table for tomorrow.