S2 Eps 9. Let's Talk Challenging Children (feat. Rabbi Meir Simcha Stein)

I told the parent, you know, your son has been bullying another boy. And I couldn't have said a more horrific word to them. It was such an attack. They were so defensive. >> If I'm pushing you off the swing because I want the swing, then that's something we can solve educationally by creating a schedule, a rotation, by teaching about sharing and turn taking. If I'm pushing you off the swing because I want to see you cry, you could have make a million rotations and swings, I'm still gonna do it. >> You know, Trump is a public bully essentially. I mean, that was his style. Thank God that we have great appreciation for him. However, the bullying part and the style I think any sensitive Orthodox Jew recognizes, Zeler Shalonu, this is not our way. Welcome to the learning curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaha magazine. >> We are raising children in a changing and challenging world. >> So let's tackle the important issues facing from families today. >> I am Rabbi Garfield Manal of Yeshiva Terrace Emis in Houston and I love talking about >> I am Rabbi Iris Shfeld Manalsha Katana of Manhattan based tipper of Manhattan and director of camp. I also love talking and sometimes fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. >> And welcome back to another episode of the learning curve, a podcast where we discuss matters that matter. And that's my by line. I don't know if that will stick. >> A good one. I like it. >> Yeah. Rabbi Garfeld, how are you? >> Good day. Good day. Hope you are well. Rabbi Schumfeld, it's great to be back. And as I say at the beginning of a lot of these podcasts, it's just it's a fun it's a fun part of my day, you know, talking to you and thinking about and having great guests. It's just it's great to be here. >> Yes. I know the Gamar Mak says right that you learn so much. There's no Gar that says podcast, but definitely it makes it makes me >> think about things more, you know, ponder things more, especially when I know I have to debate you on them. But we don't debate, we discuss, we discuss, >> discuss, discuss. Well said. Well said. >> So, here we go. As the as the format is right, it's two shorter questions and then a larger one with a guest. So, the first question I'm going to ask, >> you're going to ask me. >> Yeah. >> All right, Rabbi, take it away. >> Okay. Now, this question, I'm looking at it now. It's funny. When I first became a principal like 14 years ago, I remember giving my my father. We were we were talking about it and I was like, "Oh, this is the question that has no answer. This is the one that's gonna get me. So, it's funny that that's the one that came up all these. >> Maybe I should ask it to you. So, then >> No, no. I'd like to hear what you have to say. Okay, here we go. Do either of your schools have any sort of candy policy? I do not want to sound like that parent, but every other day my fifth grade son, third grade daughter come home having eaten more candy than perm day. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh. And there's always a good reason. A birthday party, a CM, a class prize. Is there anyone who thinks that sugaring them up is healthy or helping them for a learning environment? Can we not come up with another way to incentivize our children? >> So, I would have a much less opinion if I hadn't been asked this question by some parents in my yeshiva. Every yeshiva has those parents, right, that are nutritionists or >> a red dye and right maybe now with with the new health person running a health department, you know, in the nicest America, maybe that would change. I don't know. I'm going to shock you with this following sentence. Right. You you sometimes make fun of me for being too passionate about many things. I'm not so passionate about this question. Yeah. The answer is yeah. Are there other ways to incentivize children? Yes. In our yeshiva gdelum cards is very popular from first grade through fifth or maybe even sixth. The answer is yes. And and we I don't I I don't think we have, you know, we walk around giving out candy every day. candy really works as just a a a sign of of you know of affirmation and a sign of job well done. Yes. Do we have to limit it? I find the following that for 80% of our students this is not this is a non-issue meaning candy is great and the candy and it's >> doesn't negatively impact their educational >> doesn't really negatively impact them whe even health-wise doesn't bother them you know weight-wise it doesn't bother them there is a 20% don't don't I 20 15 whatever that number is of either kids where they just react to sugar they become gremlins when they have sugar or they struggle with, you know, whether it's weight or health and sugar really wrecks them. And those are the parents that usually reach out and say, "My son becomes a devil when when you give them sugar." And my English principal goes crazy when the Rebby at 125, oh, you did great today, boys. Here's Ali. And then all of a sudden, he leaves, runs out the door, and now the English teacher has to deal with, you know, the the Mountain Dude kids. So yes, I think as you have to kind of watch it and make sure it's not abused. I think by and large it's not a huge struggle. I I I can speak only from my three yeshivas or four yeshivas that I've worked in. Yeah. Carrots don't work as well as lollies. I just hate to break it to you. The mishn is not going to work with carrots. You have to not abuse it. And and for those kids that are sensitive. Yes. So you have to come up with the organic Trader Joe lollipops that don't have, you know, processed sugar. And you have to be sensitive to the kids in the families that are more caring. Maybe I'm too blah as a principal. I don't know. Is that is that like a >> No, I hear I hear what you're saying. And I do think like many things, it's about balance. And a lot of times parents who double down on their kids and and prevent them from all sugar, you know, when they have access to it, right? And we all know those kids, you know, from the kids who come through my house. I have kids who come to my house and it's like woo they they attack the cabinets there and it's like maybe that isn't really working. But we did do something interesting in school and I'll just share it. We one time this is a few years ago a parent was concerned about this and I wasn't really sure you know what exactly how much candy you know this in the question there's certainly a description of a certain amount of candy. So, I did like a oneweek candy audit and I said to the teachers, "We're not judging. I'm not like this isn't I just want to know what happens every time you give out candy. Mark it down, you know, and and let me know at the end of the week." And like there was one teacher that maybe had a little more, but you know, whatever. And we actually made a rule that you can only have like one party. We came up with some like together. >> Right. Right. >> Do you have schoolwide programs that have candy? Like we don't really give out when we have a schoolwide initiatives. They're usually prizes or or trips. They're not candy. Maybe >> I mean we have a ros hodes treat sometimes like >> we get about donuts. >> Yeah, something like that. >> I'll speak to the rebain once in a while if it's getting out of hand and you know >> right I think it's about >> I don't think it's out of hand. >> I I you know anyone who knows me will will feel I was being disingenuous if I don't say that I have had on my my desk at my table in my office a jar of Jelly Bellies forever. Any kid who comes to my office >> gets one or two Jelly Bellies. >> Two. Three. maybe three. You know, it's a very controlled substance, but you know, I think that it sets a tone. It creates a listen, we have this idea at an upsharon where the kid has the letter with the honey. This is a minigan claustrol honey. I I don't know the if it's processed sugar, but it's certainly caloric. And so the idea of giving a little honey is not a new thing. It's the jelly belly is a modern >> the challenge of don't don't eat your feelings. If a kid is not feeling well and you give him something to a kid who's sad, so you give him >> I gave him a a sub, a double pastrami sub and I said, you know, go in the corner. Yeah, I would hear that. But I think two jelly bean jelly bellies is not it's not >> are they the every flavor jelly belly or they like or are they the >> multi flavor? I just refill. Basically, it's really interesting. Like eight or nine years ago, I got as a gift from a vendor a little jar of Jolly Bellies. You know, I put it on my desk because what am I going to do with it? And like I saw the impact it had on adults and children like so I just refill it from Costco. >> A rebby also gets if a rebby comes to the office. >> Anyone who comes to my office you could have you come to Houston you could even have four. You could even have four. >> Wow. So yeah, it's just a small thing I do, but you know, it's an example of of like a bal I think an appropriate balance, you know, but I understand some parents find that balance to be, you know, indulgent. And so, you know, we try to be respectful, but we can't we can't stop the whole operation for that, obviously. >> All right, next. Let's see if you can hit us harder on this one. Dear TLC, my sixth grade daughter is an awesome kid. She is popular in school, works hard, and is welll liked by her teachers, and yet she is miserable. Why? One word and then in big bold letters, homework. >> Yeah, endless amounts. We should really have a bibender on for this one. Endless amounts. Now that she is in middle school, she has more teachers, which just means more homework. I don't understand. She is in school for almost 10 hours a day. Is that not enough? Why does she have to come home every night overwhelmed with work? Can you help make school nights great again? >> Very nice writer, but yes. Let >> Let me say this. Let me say this. largely I agree. I think that the research, the educational research, so let's just like call a spade a spade. Do the research yourself. Okay, parents Google it, look into it. It is very divided on the eC efficacy of homework and it's not so push it that most of the homework that we're giving is really impacting the student achievement. Now there are other reasons to give homework. One other reason is the kids need to keep busy at night. Another reason is parents otherwise don't know what we're doing in school. So it makes the connection between home and school valid but not but not enough of a validation to cause suffering. So I would agree >> that that that's something to be looked at. I think >> so. You don't have homework in your school. That means if you agree, right? >> We have homework, but it's not heavy. We're not heavy on homework. Meaning, >> do you have a policy? Do you have rules? Are the teachers limited or >> we don't have an across the board policy, but it's it's like any leadership thing. It's about what you focus on, what you reinforce. I think in the younger grades where they're like learning new skills like math, they review Gumara, we ask them to read it over and call in a number. It's not like we're not doing any homework, but I would I don't think the middle school girls cuz I have a middle school daughter >> who it became like a social currency almost like she gets together every night with her friends to do homework and that they have three hours and they don't even finish their homework. So, I'm not sure what they're doing. But do you have >> No, we don't. I have a daughter who's in middle school. I don't think I've ever seen her do homework. But that might be more >> We are outing We are outing our children with this one yet. That might be more of a Garfield Jean uh issue because I don't think I I ever did homework either to be honest. But yeah, I don't think homework isn't a big deal here. I again we give it sometimes a writing assignment or reading a novel or you know there are things that have to be done at home. So we definitely don't have a policy against homework. >> I want to share a story that happened this year. I actually think I shared that email on our Manahel's chat group email group and that is that our third grade rebby um Rabbi Berman an amazing Rebi decided mid year for the beginning of the year to cancel homework for the rest of the year and he wrote a long letter to the parents explaining that of course we'll have Kazaro over Shabas and we're still going to have tests but he found more harm than good. It was just making kids anxious. He's like, "I think the learning wonderful. If there's a specific kid that has specific needs, I'll reach out to you at night. You know, speak to your kid at night. Parent them to find out what they're doing." And that was his letter to the parents. And he got back 95% of the parents wanted to, you know, give him bouquets of flowers. the he the the the emails and that that he got from the parents in response. It was as if he he you know I don't know what cured some disease. It was an overwhelming emotional response of thank you, thank you, thank you. It was 95%. There were a couple of parents that were very upset. >> What was the reason that they were very upset? >> What kind of what kind of generation are we raising? What does that mean? Let the kids work. They have to review. And if they don't review, how don't know what they're learning? And and the kids come home and for three hours are just playing games. So the parent actually, one of the parents actually called me. I don't know if they're a podcast listener, but I'm I'm not going to say their name. Obviously, and I told them, I said, "First of all, I hate to break it to you, but you're like the only parent with this opinion, so it's not going to really help." He just to he ran it by me first before he canceled homework when I let him. And I said secondly, I am sure that Rabbi Burman, if you would like your son to work hard at night, we'll give you an individualized homework, right? >> You know, for the next few months like this is not and if your son you think is really bright or is ready, you can give him other things to learn. By and large, I agree with this this parent or bender. I mentioned his name before in very strong anti-homework belief. It's one of Bender's big things except that do homework as a kid either. I'm just putting it out there. This little fiddling continu >> could be I think we have to say Salman is also by by and large against homework but the reb have told me that yeah it's the official school policy but the reb what they want in terms of giving out homework >> so have you changed your policy have you have you taken the lead of this rebby and implemented across the board >> so I mentioned it at the rebby meeting recently that I would like to there's the rebby and the English program I'll speak about both English departments the rebay the older rebim were protested very strong and I agreed with him because I said to the sixth seven I don't consider I don't mean to be aim but I don't consider that homework I consider that >> right >> you know and you want it's a to a skill you want to teach almost a life skill for lim gum is you learn a garra and you review the gumar I think that's different than just math questions and and spelling words and and and you know things of that nature the English department. So, one of the the complaints against the English department will be why can't they do the homework the last 10 minutes of class? Why does it have to be at home? And the answer is that we are barashm not a public school and therefore we have a very finite and limited amount of English. So, the teachers and the general studies department complains we don't have enough time to teach. You want us to cut out of our our our time also to to give homework. We don't have enough time in the day. I think it's a very valid complaint. Very valid. And you know, I don't have I don't believe in in general in legislating things out. No homework in our school. I I like to work with my staff and my teachers. And if a teacher's giving too much homework, I'll try to tell them please limit it to 10 minutes. I don't think my yeshiva has a a huge homework issue by and large. Not every middle school kid will agree with me. And I'll tell kids to just don't do the homework. I hear I mean I just going back to the question I would give advice to this parent to to talk to the school directly you know respectfully and calmly and say listen for my daughter don't go after the whole thing don't you know say homework is bad you're this is crazy just say I don't know what you do for other kids and that's between them and their parents or whatever but for my child could we come up with an agreement in which she does less she does half and most schools you know I would hope be responsive to that or you got a bigger problem you know Right. Honestly, >> wonderful. And now, Eric Garfield, we move on to the spotlight issue of the week, one that we hope to spend some time on. We have a very special guest this week that will join us soon. And here's the question. Dear TLC, my fourth grade son has been coming home increasingly upset because a group of kids at school has been teasing him, excluding him from activities, and sometimes even pushing him on the playground. He's starting to dread going to school and I could see that it's affecting his confidence. He doesn't know how to respond and as a parent, I'm struggling to know the best way to support him. I want to help him feel safe and empowered, but I also believe the school's a responsibility to step in. What specific steps should I expect the school to take when bullying like this is reported? How can I ensure that my concerns are taken seriously and that meaningful action is being taken to create a safer environment for my son? So this is the B- word in in bullying. A very very large >> Can't wait to ask Dr. Novc to define that one. That's going to be fun. >> Yes. So before we we we bring on our guest, Rabbi Garfield, you know, I guess and the experience in this world of bullying and teasing and >> well, let's just first say the acknowledge the pain that bullying causes for kids and for parents. You know, mostly it's the parents listening to the podcast. So, I don't want to not say that kids have pain, but think about it as a parent. You send your precious child off to an environment that you can't be there for them and you know that they're suffering significant emotional pain and that must be that is I mean we've all you know a lot of parents have experienced that. That is one of the most horrific things. I remember when my son was very young, he got he fell and he had stitches across his forehead and it was like we were in the emergency room and they couldn't give him anesthesia and they had to just like stitch his forehead and and I had to hold him down, you know, like that was my job. I mean, it was excruciatingly emotionally traumatic to put your kid in that know you're doing that, you know? Now, obviously it's not the same, but sending your kid off to school when they're telling you, "I'm being bullied. I'm being, you know, I'm suffering." like it's not okay like you know as a parent it tears your heart tears your heart so you know I I want to start by saying that and acknowledge that so that said I think really like many issues it requires tremendous amount of partnership and and not that the questioner didn't acknowledge but I think you know a lot of times parents went to school and just solve it like just stop it just stop it you know and there are things the school could do but a lot of times there are underlying issues also that are contributing like how that child is doing himself and what he or she could learn and you know just in general there's just like it's a it's a partnership. I think that's something that's very important. It's hard to make generalizations but you know I think that that's a piece of it that needs to be that's my response sort of when I heard the question. You know the word bully is a it's a trigger word right and but it's also the reason why you have to be careful is I had made this mistake a couple of times by almost assuming that the parent was telling me was that this obviously we'll bring on Dr. to discuss this the difference between teasing and being maybe mean which is dealt one way and then bullying which is a much larger more dangerous scenario >> and then when you call up the perpetrator's parents >> and you say yank has been bullying I did that once I used the b- word >> and it was met >> one say were you as a principal or >> no as a principal as a I told a parent you know your son has been bullying another boy and I couldn't have said a more horrific word to them. It was such an attack. They were so defensive. I'm not saying he's I'm not saying he's perfect and he was but bullying. Do you know what? Like that's why I I I'm I'm always nervous to use that word. You know there are of course horrific stories of bullying and cyber bullying is sometimes more dangerous but by and large 90% of the time I have found that with just a little bit of as you said partnership and conversation we can at least change the tenor of the of the situation to not be a bully to just be you know working on midos and working on dealing when a kid bothers you and and how to deal with a kid in your class that's annoying but but parents do not appreciate their son or daughter being called a bully and and you it's it's a it's like a to me it's like a word I try to avoid using cuz it never is received well. >> Yeah. I'm not sure I would endorse that because you know I think when you give language to things if you have a definition it's empowering to the people involved to say we are dealing with something and it's not just it's not just teasing you know true there is a definition if it's a one-off tease I wouldn't call it bullying. Bullying is an ongoing power that >> I know there's bullying. I'm not saying there isn't bullying. So why not call it >> because it's very rare that it is a clear spade. There are bullies that will for three months I'm right. There are cases where the kid is such a horrific bully that you have to deal with it like like a crisis. To me bullying is a crisis as opposed to just a kid being mean. >> I mean listen I'm not I don't think you should use the word bullying if it's not bullying. However, right, >> if it is bullying, unless you're dealing with parents who are like off the rocker and you you have you can't say anything that's different, but generally I think it's healthy. I would say I wonder what the statistics are about this and I don't know if Dr. Novik will have this on the top of her head, but >> you know, I imagine the kids who bully and get bullied, it's chronic. Like you could see it in kindergarten, first grade, second grade. It's not like all of a sudden in sixth grade. It's a personality type. It's a condition. And in our schools and especially out of town where I am where the kids are with each other shabas seven days a week for years you know they they could be together for 12 in our school in our system they could be together for 16 years you know >> right >> from the two to 18 and so it's something that really requires you know consideration and intervention and it's a definitely a big topic you know >> speaking of you mentioned Dr. Novik why did you mention Dr. Novik, who is she and is she coming on today? >> Oh yes, we're very excited to have her. Let us welcome on Dr. Rona Novik. Dr. Novc, welcome to the learning curve. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me. >> Okay, we we have a lot to ask you about, but I'll start by sharing with our with our listening audience a little about you. For those who don't know, I've I've known you and your work for a long time. So, it's so great to have you here. Dr. Ronin Novak is a licensed clinical psychologist and the dean emeritus of the Azraeli Graduate School of Georgia Education and Administration of Yeshiva University. She also serves as the co-educational director of a fabulous organization that's my addition called the hidden sparks program which provides professional development to day schools and yeshivas. So Dina Mereditis, does that mean that you're drinking pina coladas all day? No, it it means that I retired from one job and now have just 12 others. Um, >> my grandfather Fabian Shanela was a RA for 60 years and then he became the rabbi emmeritus and he said the only difference between a rabbi and a rabbi ammeritus is that a rabbi ammeritus doesn't get paid. Correct. >> That's how he defined the difference. >> That is that is correct. No, I I'm I'm freed up from some of the administration and I'm not teaching uh at the moment. So, it's it allows me to pursue other things. >> Oh, but you're still affiliated and you still are on the YU team. >> Yes. >> Good. >> Yes. I will always be proud of that affiliation. Yes. >> Yes. Good. I'm happy to hear that. All right. So, with regard to bullying, this goes back a number of years. I was in Atlanta and I brought you to the Atlanta Torday School, the Tor Day School of Atlanta when you were launching. We were like the second cohort to do Brave and I was the school counselor. And so our relationship around bullying goes back. We're talking over 20 years maybe. You probably know better than me when you started Brave. >> Probably about that. Yeah. >> So luckily neither of us have aged. So that's good. We could say that. But but yet I don't think Brave has solved bullying fully because they're still talking about it, right? What's brave? You just said brave is is >> brave was the name of an of an intervention program that I initially developed when I was at Long Island Jewish Medical Center, brought over to Yeshua University and had a research project doing it with over a period of about five years about I would say a dozen schools we brought the program to. And the very important thing you said, Rabbi, is is that bullying is still around. Well, what I would say is the Rolls-Royce programs of bully prevention are still achieving only at best about a 30% reduction in bullying. And it's really important for parents to know this. I heard the question that Rabbi Shfeld read at the outset of this segment and you know parents want it gone. We all want it gone, but we don't yet have the polio vaccine for bullying. We don't I I don't think we should stop trying. I think we have to keep trying to get to a a point where there's zero incidence rate. I don't know that that's possible given human nature, but we should keep trying, but we're not anywhere near that. And parents in schools need to know they're never going to get to a a a zero level. >> I have a funny question before. We haven't defined maybe what bullying is yet and got into it. But is there any data that shows that maybe in the orthodox world maybe as you said because there's a lot of similarities in the classroom and we're together and we're much more it's important to us the social dynamic of our life that there's less bullying. >> We actually found in in our research numbers very similar to national averages >> there. Let's let's define what bullying is first because >> part of the problem is that everybody now calls everything bullying. >> He didn't give me the green lollipop I wanted in nursery school. He's a bully. He would only give me the red one. She didn't invite me to her slumber party. Even though she's only allowed to have three girls, I wasn't one of the three. She's bullying me. Those those may may or may not be instances of bullying. Bullying requires several ingredients. It's the deliberate abuse of power to cause harm. You need those three ingredients. It's deliberate, it's an abuse of power, and it causes harm. Some people argue that it needs to be repeated over time, and it it needs to be kind of, as you use the word, chronic. It needs to be ongoing. I've seen incidences that are are pretty heinous and they happen once and I'm perfectly comfortable calling it bullying because it's very clearly deliberate and it's very clearly an abuse of power and its intent was to cause harm. My classic example is if you're on the playground and there are three open swings, but you go to the person swinging on the one swing in use and you say, "That's my swing. I didn't give you permission. get off. That's bullying. But if all the swings are full and you go to someone in your favorite swing and say, "I want to turn. Get off." That's bad behavior. It's aggression, but it's what's called instrumental aggression. I'm being mean and nasty to get something I want, not to hurt you. The fact that you're harmed is an indirect effect. It's not my goal. My goal is to get the swing. only needs meaning the intent is what the intent is to harm. Correct. Kids will be mean and nasty to get something they want or need. We need to work on that as amida. That's not good behavior. And but all all all of us are born selfish and self-centered. Every infant cries when they're hungry. They don't think mom could use a break. I'll I'll chill for a while. We outgrow that hopefully as we age. and we're able to restrain our needs and not be nasty and mean just to get something we want recognizing that other people have rights also. So that's the we have to make a distinction between the the typical developmental nastiness instrumental aggression of children which is annoying and a behavior we need to change but it's normative versus the mo of bullying the way bullying looks which is I'm the most powerful person at the moment. I'm the one with the baseball. I decide who plays and I'm going to pick only the kids I like to play and I'm going to use my power to deliberately ostracize someone or I'm the best speller in the class and I'm going to refuse to share my notes or to help someone in the class who I don't like. It's it's not bullying if you invite three girls to your slumber party, but it is bullying if you walk around all Friday in school talking about which three girls you're inviting. >> Why does the language matter? In other words, what's the difference? Mean is mean and it hurts. It hurts. Okay. The language matters because if I'm pushing you off the swing because I want the swing, then that's something we can solve educationally by creating a schedule, a rotation, by teaching about sharing and turntaking. If I'm pushing you off the swing because I want to see you cry, you could make a million rotations and swings. I'm still going to do it. >> And therefore, >> and and therefore >> it needs a different approach. >> It needs a different approach. And here's the other piece. Your parent who wrote your question, and I agree, Rabbi Garfield, it's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking for parents to see this happen with their children. But what parents also need to know is that sometimes they are a making demands of a school that aren't reasonable, like I want you to eliminate all bullying, which no one's ever been able to do. B, I want you to care only for my child. I don't care what happens to anyone else. Schools can't do that. But the most important C is that sometimes what parents demand will actually make the situation worse. >> Wow. Can you give the example of that? >> Imagine if someone went on the playground and said, "Attention everybody, you have all been mean to YCL here, and if you're not nice, you're going to lose every recess going forward." Is this going to help Yonk's social status in the classroom? He's now the reason our entire recess is threatened. It's only going to make things worse. >> Is there a certain age and and gender where we find it peaks? >> Yes. Fourth to 8th grade are the peak times, but I am seeing I'm embarrassed to say I'm seeing nursery school kids say, "I made a club. It's all the girls who are wearing white shirts today and you can't be in it." I'm seeing it in preschool and we certainly are seeing it up until >> every girl or boy have the maturity to have that intent to harm. >> They see it with their siblings. They see this language in almost every cartoon, TV show, book for for children has social dynamics played out and often they have a bully. And unfortunately, children sometimes witness bullies getting what they want, >> right, >> and getting away with their bullying. And so what they learn either from media or they learn from their where their parents bully the dry cleaner when their shirt didn't come out clean or the waiter who brings the wrong food to the table or shalom the principal in the day school when they don't get what they want. When they when children witness parents using their power to deliberately get their way harm another person what do children learn? So what I want to say though is that the problem is that often we think of bullying as a diatic problem. It's two people. It's a bully and a victim. But it turns out that it's not easy to change bullies and it's not easy to change victims. And that what makes the most impact is the environment that they do their dance in. Rabbi Garfield, you talked about a school where everyone's together from kindergarten nursery till age 18. You have both the challenge and the opportunity to create an environment where not just the victim is upset by bullying, but everyone who witnesses it is upset and therefore calls the bully on the carpet. There is nothing more effective to stop bullying than peers saying, "Cut that out, man. What he what? That's not nice. Let him go on the swing. Let him play with us. What? What do you mean he's not included? Like much more powerful than anything administrators can do. So the question becomes how do we raise a generation of bystanders who will not stand idly by by you know we we say in in Torah we understand that we can't stand idly by. However, we're living in a world that is very comfortable standing by through anti-semitism, through much more horrendous acts than bullying, the abuse of power to, you know, destroy others. And so, it's hard for for us to expect children to behave in ways that adults aren't behaving. >> You know, the Learning Curve podcast, you probably don't know this, but we don't shy away from hard-hitting questions and serious issues. So, I hope your agent doesn't stop. >> Speak for yourself. >> I'm coming back, but I'd like to ask you a sensitive question and and you know, I'm curious what you think. >> You know, I remember when Trump was first elected the first time around, I had someone at my house who worked for the an organization that Rabbi Shfeld probably knows about called the Jewish Coalition for Jewish Values or something. What's it called, RHel? >> Coalition of Jewish Values. CJV. >> The Coalition of Jewish Values. What a nice name organization. >> So I said and really what it is >> I did not think that my father I did not think that my father's organization was going to get a shout out to >> your father's organization. >> Yes. >> Um and so I was so impressed at this organization. It wasn't Rabbi Jeanfeld's father. It was another person I remember who it was who was visiting Houston. >> I said that's such an impressive organization. So what do you guys promote? And they said well we promote right-wing basically conservative values American conservative values which you know we certainly I could get behind. And I said, 'Well, you know, Trump is a, you know, public bully essentially. I mean, that was his style. Thank God we've seen great, we have great appreciation for him. We're we're recording at a time where Trump is supporting Israel in the most robust way. And I have great accaratovven appreciation and recognize that that is a wonderful thing for our community. >> I hope Mishbuff I hope Mishbah allows us to go through. I don't know. This is not >> We will find out, but we will go forward. However, the bullying part and the style, I think any sensitive Orthodox Jew recognizes, Zello Shalono, this is not our way. And I said to Mr. Coalition of Jewish Values, I hope that's on the agenda while you're pushing the Jewish values about anti-abortion or whatever other issues were on their agenda that were also pushing the Jewish values not being influenced by public bully number one. And my question to you, not to opine on that specifically Dean Ammeritis Novik, but because you know maybe the emeritus part will get you to be a little more open, but the question is has having a leader such as Trump, do you think that that has had impact on the standards in our community both for adults and then for kids about how to get things done and what's acceptable? So I I'm I'm not a sociologist nor a student or or professor of of political science, but if you look at our culture at large, you know, halvai, it should only be one leader in the world on the world stage and it should only be one celebrity and it should only be it's rampant. We live in a culture that is the antithesis of Jewish values. We are I mean Rabbi Rabbi Dr. Norman Lamb wrote, he really was preient. He was writing in the 60s about Judaism as a counterculture movement. You know, toward Judaism is counter culture. And he's right. We are we are not universalists. We are very particular in our approach to the world. We do not see everybody as you know ex having exactly the same approach. We know that our approach is unique and different and elevated and and I think being surrounded not by just one but by multiple instances of bullyike power assertive behavior doineering approaches is not good. It is not good for children. It it is really I say to my own children who are raising children I don't envy you. These are hard days to raise good children. >> This podcast will not be about Donald Trump. It will not. That being said, the challenge, and I don't expect you to answer this, I just want to just make the point is that when you have a celebrity or world leader that the Jewish community hasn't embraced, it's easier to tell your children that's loader. Uh but some of the challenges is there's definitely been a an an embracing of the current president of the United States, better or worse. And that he's almost like this this this you know cultlike figure and that becomes challenging to like almost bifurcate and say regarding this right like there's this really infatuation >> it has been a challenge in Jewish history always to separate out and to raise children to understand you know this this great rabbi did this wonderful thing but had flaws >> let's say there was a scenario on school where you as the as the administration are comfortable that it is a bullying scenario. I have yet to meet a parent of a bully who accepts that. I am yet to meet a parent who you call and and you say, "Listen, your son Yanko has been bullying and you're right. He's just a bully." How do you open a conversation with with the perpetrator who will the parent? Bullying is such a scary word. It's like saying he's abusing my child to to a parent to a fourth grade parent to an eighth grade parent. >> I kind of see it the same as parents also don't like labels. They don't like when you say your child is slow or your child is, you know, has attention deficit disorder, your child has anxiety. My advice to educators always is be descriptive. If you just describe behavior, now I do agree with Rabbi Garfield that there's a point at which you have to use the word. But if you start with the descriptive, if you say your child went onto the playground, there were four empty swings and he went to the one child swinging and pushed him off and said, "My swing." I have to tell you that that kind of aggressive behavior, a it's not acceptable in our setting. B, it's of great concern because it really does fit the definition of bullying. >> And I'm the parent, so let's role play. I'm the parent. And there I don't like labels, Dr. Rabbi Garfield. And therefore, I'll speak to my son when he gets home. >> Rabbi, I'm labeling the behavior because it fits that category and that dimension. And the fact that your child exhibited that behavior is of great concern to us. Let's put our heads together now and let's figure out how we help your child outgrow that behavior because that behavior will not be acceptable or tolerated in our setting and possibly in many other Torah settings. This isn't the path of of Yiddishkite. So, let's put our heads together and let's think yes, you can have a talk with them again that a talk should cure this problem. We are going to have to collaborate in a in a consistent and ongoing way to help your child grow in a direction that they do not use their power to harm another person. They're the biggest kid in the grade or the most popular, you know, etc. You mentioned that you know the the most effective intervention is not with the bully per se or the victim of which there are businesses as you know their full businesses focused on those things that claim that they do but I I agree with you so we're going to leave that but so what do we do with the bully meaning the program for the school for the bystanders as we called them back in the day sure you still do you know that takes time that's an ongoing effort that's not responsive to the playground environment so when you do have a playground environment and you do have a child who behaves like a bully, what have you found works? Is it suspension? Is it more supervision? >> There are two things, two things. Number one, an ounce of prevention is worth about 10 tons of cure. So, ramp up. If you know you have a kid who's a problem on the playground, you have a student who gets in trouble in the bathrooms, in the hallways, then add adult supervision. And by the way, adding adults is not necessarily adding supervision because you put three adults on the playground and they smoo with each other. You have to have adults who know how to scan, how to intervene. I visited a school once and I was so heartened because every adult recess had a clipboard with every child's name who had recess. And they would walk over to a child who was alone and say, "Who are you playing with today? What do you want to get engaged in the basketball or in the the hopscotch? Come, let's go over and see what they're doing." they would not tolerate a kid not being included. >> But a bully isn't a bully. In other words, if you have a bully by recess, the playground. So, if you create this environment where the adult where you add supervision by the playground, that's not going to just cause the bully to wait until whether it's the bus or whether it's the lunchroom. >> You may need to add supervision in those places. That's only one piece. One piece is is add supervision. Get adult eyes in the place wherever possible. The second is that there have to be some consequences. Now the consequences send a message but they rarely are are you know a one a oneshot learning where oh I got suspension I'm never going to do this again. There's there's a concept in psychology of the behavioral economy. What does it cost me to engage in this behavior? If I get the swing but I get suspended and when I'm suspended at home I play video games. It's a win-win. I get my swing and I get a day at home with video games. So, you have to know the behavioral economy of a student. If, and again, the other paradigm in bullying is do no harm. If the person I'm suspending is the captain of the baseball team, basketball team, we're about to go into a tournament. I'm suspending the bully. Everybody's going to blame the victim. every kid in the school is going to say, "It's Yanko's fault that our star player isn't playing in the tournament and we lost the game." So, you have to be very careful about the consequences that you give that they don't inadvertently identify and and target the victim and that they in fact have a cost, create a cost for the bully. And you may need to do them over and over and over again. I, for example, have there I've worked schools where I've said, don't suspend the student. Just don't allow them to be at recess during recess. They have school work to do. That's a real cost to a student. They want to be out there. They want to be socializing. They want to be playing basketball for So all of these, by the way, take enormous effort on the part of the school. I recognize that >> these are like treating the symptoms. >> Okay. So what bullies you have to treat the symptoms while you have someone work with a bully to develop what their core deficit is. Bully's core deficit is empathy. They literally do not they do not feel the pain of others in the same way. They don't resonate with it. Now empathy is a a teachable skill. We all know I I have multiple children. One of them was born an empath. The other one was so far from being empathic, but he grew into a unbelievably empathic adult and educator and a caring individual. All of them now, thank God, are are empathic, caring adults. But they came from different places. You have to grow that that empathy in children. We do it, by the way, very well in early childhood. In early childhood, every time we read a book, how is the Cat in the Hat feeling? Why is the man in the yellow hat mad at Curious George? What's going on with him? How's he feeling? Every read aloud, we ask about how the characters are feeling. How would you feel if you were Curious George and that happened to you? What would you do in that situation? We then get into first grade. We go into Rose and we we are in the you know viter more curriculum, more content and we forget to teach empathy. I I just want to share a story a really you remind me of an amazing I don't amazing is the right word. So I I had a day camp, Robbie, I'm not talking about my sleepaway camp. I had a day camp in P. >> What sleepway camp? >> This is our our weekly routine. And our lifeguard was a boy who you grew up from, but was not currently from a teenager was obviously struggling. He was our lifeguard. And a seventh grader was, you call it, you know, verbally abusing and bullying him. I shouldn't have to listen to you. Why? Because you eat on yum kipper and you're not Jewish. And was was just in front of everyone tearing into him. And we called the kid into my office and my partner Rabbi Kramer says to me, "Rabbi, I got this." And he says to the kid, "I want to role play with you." And he said, "Imagine you're a lifeguard. Remember, you got kicked out of yeshiva." And he presented the struggle of this teen and you're that boy, and you come to an Orthodox camp. And he and and then he started screaming at him. You're and the kid started crying. It was an unbelievable moment of teaching empathy, of roleplaying that that is what what as you said what the bully needs. >> Yes. And and it's it's not a lesson that's necessarily learned one day, two days, but it it is a task that and and again unfortunately is best accomplished with a clear partnership between parents and children. But it will not be surprising to you that bullying runs in families. So who are we going to turn to to teach little bully empathy if big bully at home doesn't have empathy? He or she are not necessarily the best teachers in that brand of kinh. So it it is it is a challenge >> that sounds like an almost insurmountable challenge. >> I don't think it's insurmountable because I think it's a critical belief as a clinical psychologist and as an educator. But I also think it's a critical Jewish belief. I believe in the infinite possibility of human beings to change and grow. Adme estim until our last breath. We are changing and growing. And I I don't write off a parent and I don't write off a child and I don't write off a school because we have the possibility to be better tomorrow than we are today. >> Well said. So we get up every morning we say modi every year we get another al we get another chance it's it's in our DNA to recognize that nothing is nothing is fixed it's all fluid and with you know with the strength of our conviction and with Hashem's help people grow >> right we're starting to wrap up but I did want to just talk we talked about the bully we talked about the bystanders can you give us a minute or two on the victim if a parent of a victim is listening like what are uh you know what are the things they could be doing? >> Yeah. Very often victims are sensitive souls because bullying is about power. I don't want to pick on I mean I I you can't tell cuz I'm sitting down but on a good day I measure 5t tall and I went to school in a time when things were so politically incorrect that everything was done in size order. You know we sat in size order, we ate in size order, we lined up in size order. But nobody nobody really teased me or bullied me about my size because I didn't get upset. I was raised to think that good things come in small packages and I thought I was, you know, a cute little kid. But the girl who was one shade smaller than me, Susie, got brutally teased because she would cry. She would get upset. So what what parents of sensitive kids need to do is to give them some tools to manage when they're feeling sensitive because if they show the bully that they're upset then they become a standard target. Telling your child don't get upset doesn't work. Telling your child don't act upset can work because we can all practice acting. we from from their sitter play they they played from their you know we President's Day I was Lincoln in the play they all know that they can take on a persona and a character and play it for short periods of time so helping children think that I can act differently in those instances giving them strategies of what they can do is very helpful the simple act by the way of standing next to someone you decrease your chance of being bullied by 50% if you're not alone alone. >> Wow. >> So, just going out at recess and playing near the adult or near another group of children decreases the likelihood you're going to be bullied. >> Awesome. >> And then again, if if you have a true story, if your child is going to a school where sports are everything and they're spending all of recess asking someone to play chess with them, this not going to go well. You might need to go in the backyard and practice throwing a football around and build a skill or for girls you need to build a social skill. You need to build conversational skills. And those are again all teachable skills that parents, educators, psychologists, therapists can work with students on and it can make a huge difference in a student's life. >> Awesome. Wow. That's a great message and I really feel you really know you really know your stuff, Dr. And it's great to like I feel better about it just talking to you. Don't you feel better, Rabbi Sheld? Like >> Yes. Yes. I I I I feel like a student again. >> Feel like there's hope, you know? >> Now I have a chance in the future with Garfield. I know all now I know what to do. >> Uh Dr. Novak, thank you so much for joining us and I'm so happy to hear you're so you you have more less time with administration, so you have more time within and helping people and that's that's where you need to be. >> Yeah. And writing writing books for children and parents. I will eventually write a bullying book, but >> that's a great question on books. Do you are you familiar with Big Nate? >> Big Nate? I don't remember it. No, >> it's it's a very popular comic book and a lot of these comic books have bullies that that lose at the end. The problem is that kids just read it and the bully is usually so funny and it's so creative that they miss the message. It's just an example of a book that >> Yeah, there's a Jewish book by a a colleague Benny the bucket filler, Sarah the bucket filler, that's about about this issue from a mida point of view. My advice to people is just always read the book first. Some of the books I think have horrible I don't like the Baronstein Bears on bullying. I think it's terrible. Their approach is terrible. There's a wonderful book by O Peggy, I'm forgetting her name, called Say Something about a young girl's struggle when she's she's a bystander. It's one of the few books about bystanders, her struggle when she sees something to stand up for >> awesome >> for her friends. So, you know, your children's librarian is is your best friend for finding good books, but read them first. >> Got it. Wonderful. All right. Thank you so much. All the best, Dr. Novik. >> My pleasure. Be well. >> That was amazing. As I told Dr. Novik, I feel like a tallet, a student again. It was informative. I think I learned a lot. And as someone who who deals with these sensitive topics, I think I'm better for it. I hope we're all better for it. That was quite special. >> Yeah, I agree. That was an absolutely wonderful interview and getting to hear Dr. Novik talk about the different statistics and actual practical things we could do for the bystander, for the bully, for the victim. So important. And of course, the collaboration between family and home. These are all just great topics, great aspects of a really important topic. And really thankful that we had Dr. Novik. And you know, I'm sure you both of us feel we could uh go ahead with the information and really uh help people. So that's that's wonderful. Thank you all again for joining us on the Learning Curve podcast. It's been such an enjoyable thing to to record these podcasts and we really appreciate the feedback we're getting from our listeners. Please feel free to send us an email at the learningcurve mishbucka.com. That's three wordsthelearning curve mishbah.com where you could share your feedback on these topics and we could continue to be interactive as we like to be with your great questions that we could address. All right, Ari. Rabbi Shfeld, always wonderful to all of our guests. All the best.