S3 Eps 7. Let's Talk Rejection (feat. Rabbi Yosef Sonnenschein)

School is supposed to be a preparation for life. And life is not all about people that are 100,000% like you. >> Are we building kids that are just too soft and can't handle life? I mean, our kids are so soft today. One little thing, we take care of it for them. >> We think our children are the best ever, right? So, our child gets read to someone and a family says no to us. Welcome to the Learning Curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaha Magazine. We're raising children in a changing and challenging world. >> So, let's tackle the important issues facing families today. >> I'm Rabbi Garfield, Manal of Yeshiva in Houston and I love talking about >> I'm Rabbi Ari Shfeld, Manal of Yeshiva Katana Manhattan, Ro of Bipra Manhattan, director of camp. I also love talking and of course a little bit of fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. >> Welcome back to another edition of the learning curve. Rabbi Garfield, onward we go. How are you? >> Hey, good. Yes, we're about halfway there, right? Midwinter. Midwinter is upon us. Mid winter is upon us and I look forward soon the next week or so very shortly I'll be coming to Houston I think we have to do something there right even at least make believe we're doing a podcast we can't see each other live >> as I come for a very special day of >> correct and not bring on bring together the whole with me and you and the listeners >> yes >> find a way to connect >> find a way to connect so I think before we begin this episode we should let the listeners know that the Next episode will be something we haven't done before. Maybe it's a little bit brave of us and that is respond to the responders, right? So, usually we deal with questions that we get and then we try to answer those questions in the best way possible. Often people have thoughts on our thoughts. And so I believe episode 8 which is the coming episode after today after this one will be us reading some of the responses from the some of our listeners. We'll see how what their thoughts are and then we'll be able to engage further. So it'll be a guestless episode the next one but maybe more interesting. I don't know. We'll see. We have >> I really enjoyed that part of this you know because Mishbaka has such a wide sort of range of listeners and a wide net. The comments are just very interesting and very appreciated. And they're not all pretty, but they're all appreciated. Let's put it that way. >> And we'll see we'll see how pretty we what guts we have at the next episode. But that's for the next one. But now we have actually a very exciting episode tonight and a very special guest that we'll bring on soon. >> But as always, we tease the audience with some shorter questions. Before we get delve into the big topic, two short questions, a spotlight question. Away we go. Who wants >> Ask you one. I'm asking you first. So, open it up. Here we go. >> My son is in 11th grade and recently got his first phone, a tagged and filtered flip phone without any internet capabilities. It does have texting. However, his school has recently made us aware that there are AI based services that can be accessed by phone calls or texting. These services can even send images via text. Obviously, this is horrifying. What are we supposed to do? As it is, we held out as long as we possibly could before getting our son a phone. It feels like the more we do to protect our kids, the more the itahara pops up. and with something even more innovative and enticing. How could we shield our kids from this? And how can we be to be safe in today's frightening day and age? >> So I have to be my I did not write this email this message. I do have an 11th grade son. >> Oh, really? >> Who recently got his first phone. It's tagged. It's filtered. It's a flip phone without internet capabilities. It knows how I mean literally it sounds like. So um Azie this one's this one's for you. My 11th grade son learning in yeshiva and yeshiva recently was struggling what to do with this suga. So it's funny because you know but but it usually takes a few days from when the episode is recorded until it goes live until we drop it. It could be by then the whole world will have changed. Right. >> Right. >> The world of AI is a rapidly >> you know changing. It's a brand new world for all of us. You know I know that recently we had a meeting of manalen right and this AI came up and the response was 35 of us on this zoom call was I don't know right >> that was basically response so Rari maybe take a moment and just explain the technology because not everyone is holding an 11th grade phones and AI and what that means so you take a moment just explain what this parent is referring to in terms of even a flip phone has a vulnerability just >> so I'll explain to the best of my knowledge I'm not a techie but to the best of my knowledge knowledge. There are two potential pitfalls of a non-in tagged beautiful phone, wonderful phone. I mean assuming to as beautiful as phones can be and that is number one is that AI has call-in numbers and you could call in these numbers and really ask any question in the world whether it's PT any question in the world. Now they do have their own internal filter as of today. They are debating that apparently of whether of taking off the filter that happened. That's the chat GBT brand >> their own filter not a tag filter which obviously their filter is not a >> what I mean is there are multiple AI based call-in numbers besides chat GBT brand >> right but I think the AI mothership whatever that means AI in general has some sort of filter I think maybe by law I don't know I don't know but as of now there but the filter that it's on is definitely not a filter that would suffice in any of our homes so so challenge number one is your son can call any number whatever these numbers are and everyone knows them I don't, but I imagine every boy does if they want to and they could ask it any question. You could ask it the weather and if you're having a fight with your friend over, I don't know who won the World Series in 1986 and you're not a Met fan and you don't know it's the Mets, you could ask it that. >> Harold Strawberry, >> right? >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> Or but obviously you could ask it any question which is concerning. >> Who else? >> Which is concerning. They beat Houston actually in ' 86. Oh, really? New York beat Houston. >> I wasn't here yet. Okay. >> So, as a matter of fact, small anecdote, this is before AI. So just before adi last year I was talking to a bunch of yeshiva guys 11th graders and I was and these guys said you follow sports in yeshiva good guys and I said how and they said well we usually listen to like the ninth inning of every night I said after night I said how do you do it like what do you mean there's a phone number I said what phone number and his last name starts with an h I'm not going to give any other information but he told me about this phone number and he's like what do you mean 732 extension 487353 it's basically it's a guy in Lakewood who hacked the system and you could dial in like those of that are my age. >> Oh, that's amazing. >> And would call tell me to try to get the score. This is basically you call in a phone number and it hooks you up depending on what number you press and what team you are to any game >> like >> it's thing just that they six months ago it was thing. It was a 732 phone number. >> That's unbelievable. >> So some guy in the coffee room in BMC. >> That's amazing. Oh my gosh. >> So, wow. >> So, that was, you know, but that's that that's >> right. This is much more than that. >> This is obviously a certain level of limitlessness. Now, there is a this I think a little bit of hysteria about bots and robots and relationships you can call and get friends with AI. You know I did polling with my a lot of the chief that I know my staff in camp and you know and they all laughed at this concern as anyone who was doing that has maybe stronger issues but definitely there's there's a phone number that you can call to with your own phone that definitely that that's level one. I think the more immediate frightening concern was that if your phone has the ability to text pictures then you can text AI make a picture of me you know whatever at a baseball game and you send a picture of your face and it will give you choices of do you want to be strong do you want to be skinny right like that so obviously you can use your imagination who the MI is you can make up anything you are and the pus that this just automat that's basically on your phone on every phone that has the ability to text pictures. That's the legitimate, you know, you know, real fear of that. My son who I have this kosher phone and really they can do anything they want with it. Again, it's quote unquote filtered, but it's not a filter that any of us would allow in our home. >> So, that's real legitimate concern. >> That's just to educate everybody. >> That's a small education. I'm probably making some mistakes. I'm probably not saying it properly and people but that's the b that's I three bakim in my house three boys that all have >> filtered phones and that seems to be the concern. >> Okay. >> Um so the question is what do we do about it right? So to go ahead and say something you can never touch when you know everyone's home for the I mean the Kaneka party and you're making these funny whether it's a groin through AR your parents are doing or obviously at work or it's also it's just here and it's just it's I'm not explaining that technology doesn't matter but it's here and it's not going anywhere but it doesn't belong in our yeshivas. I will just share with you what my son's rebi said and that is and I'm so I'm just gonna I guess quote him and that is Shimestein fathers of Ebsteer. So Shahara found out about the new AI technology, collected all the phones in yeshiva and are trying to filter it. Now there there's a new phone trying to come out that automatically blocks and continuously blocks every single new AI phone number and that doesn't allow text message for you know pictures. They're trying to collected all the phones and he in this year she these are bishmed guys. These are not ninth graders. He said and I'm just quoting my son. I hope I'm saying it right. He said I am not saying there is no place in the world for AI. It's technology like every technology. It can be used for very good. It can be used for very bad. Many of you will use it in your life as you get older. But a yeshiva is different. Yeshiva is a ta and our standards are different. And we're trying to create we're trying to eliminate every single possible n for you here in yeshiva. And for that reason we can't have something that has potential good in it but it's too dangerous for the t of yeshiva. That was the schmoo that were given yeshiva. and they collected all the phones and then you know they're trying to figure out they're trying to figure it out like we all are. So I do think >> right now the phones are under lock and key so to speak. So they were on the key till then some of them were able some of them they took off the pictures and they you know the ability to send pictures and ones they weren't able to they're getting them new phones they're busy with this you know aphantentish like now >> I I was talking to another manal of a big yeshiva about this is connected to our family and they have a different they've always had a different mahal where they have their own phones that they give the boys and they turn on and off they're able to turn on and off texting >> so that during this lan They don't have texting ml anyway. All right. They have phone calls though. You can always make phone calls. So, right, you know, so we were talking about it and they were explaining to me that like listen texting is not a problem because they just could turn it off, you know? >> Okay. >> But the phone call part, >> right? >> You know, >> and >> that's different. No, >> I don't have an answer. I'm saying >> at least that half is a less of an issue there. But >> but the question is to this parent, you know, we have to >> what do we tell the parent? Yeah, >> we tell the parent that you have to do two things at once. You do not want to give your son a device that will will force him to be and we try as much as we can to limit the our exposure to our and to our boys and of course to our girls also in what they have easy access to. And so that's first of all yes you have to stay educated and stay ahead of the curve and that's alith on the other hand or maybe at the same time we have to work not with just the negativity of the horrors of technology and the horrors of AI but the more that we can build the person and the more that we can build a person from within and create strong proud yeshiva so then they will be able to face these nanis that flying at them from you know every two days a different you know think 30 years ago the concept of any a cell phone forget AI if you would have told 30 years ago that yes we're going to have cell phones in Bish and some don't let that would be crazy you could call anyone anytime during the day you could go outside right so a little bit of and yes AI is a brand new frontier that's terrifying but like everything else We have to try to control it to the best of our ability and at the same time don't allow it to create the narrative. Oh no, the world is no teach healthy boundaries and >> why you laughing. >> All of you who are thinking not question >> they're going to write us. You're right. Right. Shall's avoiding the question. He's not answering the question. I have something to say to all of you. You're right. But it's a hard question to answer. Meaning he's saying balance. Right. I mean, essentially, what are you going to say? I mean, right. Am I Am I misreading what you're saying? >> It's a sandwich of all the pieces of >> It's a sandwich all the pieces. But what I think is I try what I think is important to avoid is this notion of AI is this the worst Yates of all time. Period. End of sentence. Class has to run away from AI. It's the reason why there's gullus. You know, there's something that is here in part of the world and part of everyone's home and within two years and I'm not a tech guy at all. It will be in your fridge. It will be in your car. >> Yeah. Two years. Two two months, >> right? I don't think anyone thinks I mean I you know it's it's misguided to say almost like there's no AI. AI is it's like saying there's no electricity. I mean it's going to be part of everything. You know the question is you know how you balance trust versus opportunity versus the reality versus >> right >> I thought it was ironic I don't know if you saw one of the phones that's being you know shared as a potential remedy for the trust >> trust it >> yeah I was thinking might stand for something I might say but yeah yeah that was a funny name not that listen you know >> yeah but I we you know you Yeah, I'm not saying >> right. So, we're not supposed to trust ourselves in these and we're supposed to do the best we can. Yeah, that's >> okay. Let's move on. >> All right, question number two. Dear TLC, I have a question for the learning curve. I really enjoy listening to each episode. Thank you for putting them out. That's not the question. >> Hey, thank you. >> A little bit of a long one, but let's see if you can. >> That doesn't even sound like a butt. That sounds like a real >> No, just No, it's a way for us. It's a way to get us to read it. So what is a parent's responsibility when it comes to giving a consequence to a child at home for a behavior that occurred in school? I believe that a child's behavior at school should be dealt with at school and behavior at home should be dealt with at home. The school has asked me to take away at home privileges for inschool behavior. But I uncomfortable that as we have our own behaviors we are dealing with at home. Should parents even have discussions about inschool behaviors or should we try to keep things separate so my child doesn't feel like he is coming home to be reprimanded each day by his parents? And on the other hand, should we be giving rewards for inschool behavior or should that be provided or I guess should we at home be giving rewards for inschool behavior or should that be provided in school? School is not an easy place to be for my child. And I sometimes wonder if home and school should even be kept more separate. >> That's a good one. That's a a lot of layers there. That's a very good question. Okay. >> Okay. On to our spotlight. >> Yeah. And now I have to answer it in layers. So the first layer that comes to mind is your home needs to be a more loving, more accepting, a safer place than school. And that should be for sure. So the idea I actually was just talking to someone who had a very rough childhood. He goes like they hit him in school and then he came home, he got hit for being hit in school, you know, and like right like no. So it's not that. But the alternative of saying that what happens in school and we don't have anything to do with it, I think is taking it a little too far. I think that parents have a role and a responsibility and an opportunity to process what's going on in their child's life. It's not about beating them up. It's about what's going on. Let's talk about it. Let's figure it out. How could I help you? You know, just to say, "Oh, you got suspended. Well, that happens in school. Let's just leave that." I think that's irresponsible. A parent has to say, "What's going on?" You know, why is that happening? I don't know if you also need to then come up with consequences at home. I guess if you feel the kids not taking it seriously maybe but assuming that the consequence in school is significant I don't know that you've need to come with consequences but to ignore it and not have conversations about it you know I think is a lost opportunity of so I I feel strongly that and this has happened you know because we don't like when kids you know get in trouble but I would say that when there is a serious consequence in yeshiva and I speak to the parents, they'll ask me, >> which to me is the most important piece that I think is almost missing. There should be a partnership and a real working partnership between the yeshiva and the parents. Hey, my son just come. Whoa. What do you want to do with me at home? Do you want like for my son usually is allowed one tonight is pizza night. He gets extra pizza. Should I? And depending on the scenario of what message I want the parents to give or what I want the kid to feel sometimes I'll tell the parent like I'll tell you bothered in yeshiva kid got sent home middle of the day and his parents pick him up right now I don't know he was he threw a snowball at the teacher right let's say parent picks him up takes him ice cream right so I don't think that's what I mean it's Tuesday we go for ice cream on Tuesday no I think there's supposed to be an understanding that the school and the parents work together and if you have a strong relationship with yeshiva if you don't then if you don't have a strong relationship with yeshiva then probably you don't trust >> sounds from this parent that >> whatever happens to that's their deal I can't tell you I agree with it they want to take away his recess or what I don't know probably something bigger than that they want to give him a detention let's say I give you the classic example you get detention for cutting class or being after too many times when he comes home from school I would hope that if you have a proper functioning and working and healthy relationship with yeshiva And you're going to sit down with the manal or talk to the manal and say, "Hey, when I when he comes home tonight and the answer is sometimes I have had parents that I have said, you know, we beat him up pretty good on obviously figurative speaking today. I think he got the message. Matter of fact, when he left my office, I I gave him a little fist bump even though he got detention." And I'll do that often. A kid will get in my office for a serious reason and I'll end off with some type of, "Hey, by the way, one more question." you know, nice, you know, you're playing football barista today. You're the quarterback. I can just like as if letting you know that you're not my eyes >> and I'll tell the parent, hey, he I think he got enough. >> And then the other times I'll tell the parent, I think you have to talk to Schllayy >> because at the end of the day, if this keeps happening, like I don't I don't like >> this person this parent said they want me to consequence. If I heard correctly, the school is asking me to do more consequences at home. >> Yeah. So I Yeah. So to me, I could understand that telling a parent whose kid is doing no work, right? No work in school. None. Let's say he's flunking and we feel that he's flunking and he should be held accountable. And I tell the parents, listen, he's allowed a video games on Sunday nights, not this week, Sunday nights, no video games, and he's studying again for that math test. Now, I have a hard time with that. I mean, I, you know, I don't, it pains me to argue with you. Pains me. But I don't know if that's the role of the school. They might say to the parent, he has >> but it's not a role of like me mandating. It's that's what I'm saying. It's me talking to the parent and saying hey by the way and it's not even by the way this is maybe the relationship that we work hard to attain in Aisha. I'll get asked by the parentfeld I know he missed his math test and it's you know what should I do tonight about PS4 >> but that would be different. >> I'm not talking about mandating like calling up >> that's what it sounds like from the question that they called up the parents said you better consequence. Now you're right the parents should say back which I appreciate. Does it bother you when a kid say about my grandfa does it bother you when a kid is suspended for >> extreme whatever egregious and he's suspended and you send him home can't right and then you go you're walking outside to you know to make a I don't know what to go to the girl school three blocks away from you and you see him in the pizza store with his mother having ice cream does that bother you >> it depends if I know the situation I could see a scenario where that would be appropriate it really depends >> you see a scenario where it would not be appropriate >> yes but I would hope that the parent, the goal is to fix this behavior and to address the child, right? So, I would hope that the parent would say to the school or say to themselves, what could we do as a family? What does this child need >> to support that will change? Maybe needs a knuckle patch figuratively or maybe trip to the ice cream with his mother. I mean, sometimes that's what you need. You know that it's not always inappropriate. So, my point I think the school and the parents have to be in sync that we're trying to help this child overcome it, but there are different roles at different times. And I don't know that the school should be mandating. They should be working together. >> My my my first year as Manel, I had a child with a tough family situation. Very tough. He kicked a teacher. That was pretty bad, right? I sent him home 10:00 in the morning. I sent him home. And it was a child with enough of a tough background that before I suspended him, I called him a bender to ask him whether I should >> and he said yes. >> Teacher, I sent him home. >> It was a Wednesday. Every Wednesday at one o'clock, I played Strateggo with this boy in my office. That was like our bonding time. I didn't let him win. I'm not. Come on. I'm not that nice. But he was very he because he loved Strateggo. >> So I kicked I suspended him. >> I suspended him. Yeah. We saved. And then three hours later, I knocked on his door with a box of strateg. >> Wow. >> My point is that your every of course every case is different blah blah blah. But I would hope that if you have a strong relationship with the school, then there's a trust both ways. But there's no such thing as a school just telling a parent. Again, I shouldn't say no such thing. In a healthy relationship, the school won't tell a parent, well, we punished him in school, please punish him, but I'm also there would be that conversation of your son has to hear the same message. That's I think school's concern is that parents ignore the messaging that we're trying to give. And if I'm telling you, you know, it's so important for your son to have this and this message and then you don't give it at home, that would bother me as a child. >> You know, it comes down to trust. I've had situations where, you know, my children have been in environments where I don't necessarily trust >> the judgment of the adult. And in that case, >> it's very important to provide support to your child. You know, I'm so sorry that that teacher or administrator mistreated you. >> Yeah. But that's not this that's not this child. This child is right. this child is at the but you're saying that you don't the school punished the kid the parents are saying why should I punish him at home also the answer is of course you shouldn't unless it's part of the process >> but then you should never give a kid a punishment unless it's part of the process >> as a general rule would you assume that usually parents either to come down strong at home or not >> as a general rule I would hope that if something really happens in school that deserves a serious enough consequence that the parents are told about it right and are spoken to, >> then when the kid comes home, >> the kid should not feel that his parents don't care. I'm not saying that they don't have to give him another consequence, but no, here's the butt. The butt is that they have to unpack and explain the real >> trouble that he got in and why that's not okay and yada >> 100%. And but if part of the pro and this is why it's so important again to have that relationship with yeshiva if part of the process is that there's things that are going on at home that are inhibiting this in the schools like by the way when he comes at home tonight he cannot again play a video game because the last three times that happened he failed the test on purpose then if you trust the yeshiva then it's all part then it's the maka says but >> I hear okay I think we're closer but you No, it's fine. I think it's okay. I think we've done that justice. And the bottom line is that parents and the school ideally should be working in sync and supporting each other. I just one little anecdote as we get ready for our next guest. Just share it because it was a positive thing for me and I was a kid who got in a little trouble as we've discussed. Nothing horrible, but there were times when conversations m had to be had between me and my parents. And my father had a very interesting technique that worked for me as a kid. You know, he would we would go into my room and he would lie on my bed and I wouldn't be on the bed. I'd be on the floor. I'd walk. We're talking about one, two, three, four year old. Like I don't know. I used to play games. I don't remember why. >> And >> you were remembering things that happened when you were four years old. Is that what's happening right now? >> No. No. I meant first, second, third grade. Fourth like the younger grades. >> Anyway, sorry about that. Anyway, he would say, so he would turn off the lights, so I didn't have to face him. It wasn't like embarrassing. I don't know how to explain it. It was dark and he would say, "Let's talk about what happened today." And he would, we would talk about it. But because it was dark, it was so much easier for me. It's it was an interesting technique. It was easier for me to talk about it without feeling like attacked. And so I remember it happened a few times, but you know, the conversations were much more I didn't have to be as defensive. I just remember that. So, you know, just putting it out there when we're talking about what happened in school and getting in trouble. I'm just reminded of that technique. You know, that sometimes when a child feels like they're attacked at school and they come home and they're attacked at home, it could put them into this defensive mode and not really open them up. So, >> beautiful >> interesting thought from my father. >> Beautiful. And now we move on to the spotlight question and it is our cover to welcome Rabf Sunshine from Waterberry Connecticut to the learning curve. Rabbi Sunshine is the R of Shalom Waterberry. He's the bahal of in Queens otherwise known as Landers in Queens and he might not know this but he's a rebi to hundreds and hundreds of yeshiva who listen to his shirim. My sons are guilty as charged and are through you know so also through camp camp sh camp heler we've all benefited from my sunshine I'm thrilled to to be able to meet you so this is very exciting >> very much looking forward thank you so so much >> I'm going to start with the question that you know we have here about a gem of a daughter and we'll use that as a stepping stone to what we want to talk So my gem of a daughter was just rejected from seminary. She was set out on going. She did everything right her whole life. She got great grades, has amazing midos, does so much and her teachers love her. And now she's slapped in the face and is told that even that wasn't enough. She literally followed the recipe. Be a good girl. Follow the rules. Do what you're told and you'll be you'll get in a good seminary and you'll get a good shak. Why is it okay that schools have decided to put everyone in a box then shrink that box so small that unless you're literally perfect, you don't fit. >> Whoa. That's heavy. >> Yeah. Wow. You could hear the pain in the question. >> You sure can. >> Wow. Wow. And this is not, you know, this type of thing with not getting into seminary, I guess, could apply to not getting into yeshiva. >> Sure. to to to other things as well >> like camp I have to tread very carefully I'll get I'll let you speak first and then I'll discuss some of my challenges >> you know I find as a parent that you know it's hard for us to watch our kids go through things but I find that it's I for some reason I don't know if you have that this experience it's harder for me to watch my kids go through emotional pain than even physical pain >> it's just hard to watch them to watch a child deal with rejection it's torture for the parents And I think it's important to realize like that there are really two questions here. There's how do I deal with the rejection and there's how do now what do I do for my daughter? You know, I don't think unless I'm misunderstanding, I don't think we're here to change the system. I think we're here to talk about and how we could be the best parents that we could be to daughters or sons who are in a system that sometimes part of it is that there's rejection. I think it's very important because this really goes more than just who's in pain. A parent that's child is rejected. A lot of times it's not the child's rejection that's on the table here. It's the parents rejection. The parent, my daughter was rejected. And a lot of times, Rab Shanfold, you've probably have dealt with this. There's like an incredible anger. You know, how could it be that you rejected my child? So I I have to anyone listening to this who I have I'm going to try to tread this very carefully. Yes. Really in my camp and Barashem I have a camp that that you know gets filled quickly and people try to get in and sometimes they don't and sometimes even they were in camp the last year and we think it's not the right fit for them and that conversation never goes well. There's no such thing as a good reason. And I'm not here to I'm not here to push away. way. I'm here to The most uncomfortable moments for me are taking that phone call from my parent. Why didn't you take my son? And how dare you not take my son? And my son now has to face the fact that three of his friends got in. And it's I don't have easy answers. I'm we we try the best in in the world of to make the best decisions we can. But yes, that is an angry it's a hurt parent. And I don't have what to say to them. I don't have good answers to them, which is why you're on. But let me just in terms of the question, I think that the first thing this parent needs to do is to get a hold of themselves. I don't mean this in a negative way. I know what it's like. The first I I've had it with yeshivas. I've had it with different things that you know that my children didn't get into things. And I think the first thing is I have to take stock of where am I going to make the right decisions here, you know. So some parents are more powerful than others, you know. So then they could start knocking the doors down. You know, some parents even if they can't start knocking the doors down, they can start spreading who knows what about a place, you know, like all these kind of things. And sometimes these types of things come from this inner fury. That's not the insecurity of the child. I've had situations where the child is begging the parents, leave it alone. I didn't get in. It's fine. I'll go somewhere else. But the parents don't want to let it go. And I'm not saying this in a critical way. I understand that it's very hard. And you know this mother, it sounds like a mother wrote it, not a father. >> You see, Rebe Garfield, we always argue about these type of emails who's writing it. But yes, >> it sounds a mother's email, but this email I'm not I'm hear like she did everything right. She did, you know, I'm hearing a lot of the mothers saying, I did everything right. I sent her to Bakov. I raised her the right way. I did everything right. And then the didn't accept her. And that needs to be dealt with mitad the person this mommy herself who's suffering both meets her pain of watching her child in pain and mits her own feeling of rejection >> that needs >> but how about the notion whether it's again a shock whether it's a seminary ma a camp that kids don't get in for the darnest reasons for like for nothing the on the interview for the seminary you know my I I hope I don't get in trouble for this. My sister who now is a is a principal has a kash of a family. This is 35 years ago. She applied to a seminary and they didn't want to take her because she had curly hair. Now she happens to have curly hair. She got married. So her hair became straight after she got married. But it's called the but in other words the look on a interview we found out you know that the smallest little details and that are meaningless and are we as a sour of yeshivasim these are huge tense are we too judgmental and way too picky >> well what's the reason for the curly hair why is that I don't I'm sorry >> it's I'm a real out of towner. What? What's the issue with curly hair? >> Yeah, she's calling my sister up. It's not a tur missak girl. >> But what does that mean? That's like saying I mean what does that mean? Blue eyes. >> I don't want to explain. I don't explain it. I'm laughing cuz it's it was very curly hair. So she kept it maybe a little >> Why didn't you mention that? >> So she kept it maybe a little short cuz I don't maybe having I don't know. I was 10. She kept it a little short because she didn't want to it was long was too hard. >> Okay. But I have a big ka on you. I have a big kasha before we go on. It sounds like she ended up going to that seminar. It sounds like you said they almost didn't take her, but they ended up taking her and she went. Why would she go to a ignorant seminary? >> Because my parents knocked down every door and refused to take over for an answer. >> But why go to a seminary that's run by a bunch of nudnik? >> Because it was the best forim. What do you mean? >> Okay. So, okay, I yield the floor back. >> You're you're really shifting the question now to the meistas. Is Well, I guess the mother is blaming the mist. So, so we could right the question is are the misters to blame? And >> it's very hard to say you know like this is going on in all of these areas you know getting into missifas which I know you've had a podcast about you know like you know all these things that you know in general in general overall I think everyone's trying to make it you know everyone's trying to make it everyone has parents that they have to answer to it's very hard to say a broad suite the people are being too mockbid and it's hard to say that it's Does that leave you? Okay, whatever. You still have to deal with your daughter. >> It's a very tough thing and and what happens to the kids that don't get into schools which is a very painful sugia and on you know and there's a balance here like what you're touching is a very explosive thing because on the one hand we do have to create a certain broadness. I want to tell you something. I've been in Waterberry for 26 years. Okay. But right before I came to Waterberry my daughter was supposed to go to kindergarten not in Waterberry. We didn't hadn't even heard of Waterberry. And we were applying for a school for her. And >> she does she have did she have curly hair? >> She did not have curly hair. Curly hair. And she was she was the cutest three-year-old. And we were looking into schools for her. And I was learning to cuddle and and we didn't know that it would not be relevant because she's going to end up the next year with four other girls in her class in some, you know, classroom in Waterbury, Connecticut. But so I applied to two schools and one school was a school where every single girl in the class's father is in clay kadesh or kit some kind of clay kaidesh and the other school was a school where a nice of it was clay kaidesh but a lot of it was very nice families of doctors, lawyers, accountants, construction, all the other stuff and I decided I needed to send it to the second one. Even though I was in cuddle, but I told myself, I was very young. Maybe I was crazy, but I told myself school is supposed to be a preparation for life. And life is not all about people that are 100,000% like you. Why not send her to a school if the are strong and the teachers are strong that there's a wide variety of beny that that's serving at properly but not every single one's father has this to be learning tyra or teaching tyra full-time and I made that decision and I never ended up having to act on it. I mean in waterberry we only have one school so I guess I did act on it >> right >> but so what you're saying about us being too makpid it's a societal thing that's true it's true that there we have so many schools and we have so many different styles and you know the like not yeshivish world looks at yeshivish but in the yeshivish world we have 50 different flavors >> right >> and manalim of mifas of elementary schools of camps of manales of seminary ies. They have these indicators and I can't even blame them. This kind of shoes means this. This kind of hairstyle means that. This kind of watch means this. And I don't know that there's someone to point to to blame for this. It's a very it's definitely a painful byproduct of the incredible huge kahila that we have and the fact that people like to stick together and there is a certain fear of putting my child in a place that's broader than I am. There's a certain fear of that and I understand that fear. There's two sides to that. >> Brother Sanjan, you you deal with a lot your MIT a lot of people and I heard in your initial response, tell me if I'm misreading that you really think that this idea of rejection generally speaking is a parent issue, not a child issue. When the parent says, and I've had parents say literally desentence, if you don't take my son into your camp, I don't know how I'm going to be able I didn't tell him yet. And this is camp, right? So, which I think my camp is wonderful, but it's camp. It's not a shock, right? And it's I haven't told my son yet because I don't know how he will handle it. I don't know if you know it's going to be devastating for him. I'm hearing and you correct me if I'm wrong that you think that a huge of that is projection. >> Yeah. I mean, it's very uncomfortable to tell our kids uncomfortable things and things that will be painful for them. You know, when you have to tell your daughter the said no, you know, it's also, you know, I've been there. It's very painful. It's very hard. But >> so how do we do it? >> Let me say this that there are kids that would fall apart from such a thing. It's true. But I believe that if a kid will look, I'm just going to I'm just going to be honest here. You wanted me. So I'm going to tell you what I think. I think that if a kid will fall apart from something like that, something was missing before. And I think that all of us need to be raising children that have a certain confidence and know that the people that love them respect them and see their mileas so that even if a school didn't see why this, you know, wonderful girl is appropriate for this seminary that she could be disappointed, she could be horrified that she's not going to be with her friends. There are a lot of pieces of that. But that it won't break her. I'm not I that that's what I'm pushing back on. I think that like we have to in other words let me let let me give you a few points let me explain what I mean number one if I haven't raised a child where I'm complimenting them and I'm pointing out specifically the mile in them that I appreciate you know that means that if I have different children I don't say the same thing to each one and I have this is my amazing cook and this is my amazing balis mid and this is my amazing der so let me just tell you like this past chavis khaneka was my daughter's bas mitzvah, a matzah shabas. We got the family together and we sat around the table to Malava Mala. I this is what I did. I said just on the spot. I said I want to go around the table and I want everyone to say just one brief thing that they admire about Hindi. It was such a nice thing. Everyone said, you know, few people mention that she's super honest. If she has a bad day in school and you ask her how her day was, she says bad. And today I asked her how her day was and with a big smile on her face she said bad and and different things came out you know my daughter-in-law said that she from the time she joined the family she admired how hindi davins you know things like that but I think I'm just giving an example kids need to grow up not just being told I love you and not just being told you're amazing you're the best you're 100% you're you're the king you know all these compliments they need to be told what you're an amazing listener you're you know things like that I think that builds a certain muscle inside a kid that if they're rejected, it's already a lot there. And the other thing is, and this is something I've had to explain to kids, and I would tell parents to sit down with I would tell that mother to sit down with her daughter and explain this to her. Both of you being in could attest to this that this is true. There are different measuring sticks for people. When you are a camp director and someone comes to apply to the camp, you're looking for different things than a massifa man is looking for, right? Different things than a person who's getting a job. There's different things. So when you're getting go going to seminary let's say they want to see how she's her social skills are how intelligent she is how you know maybe even how deep she is you know but there are different other there are other measuring sticks that we're not looking at you know like I was talking to a boy in a base medish who was feeling like he wasn't fitting into his base medish and I realized it's because he's a super emotionally intelligent thoughtful like kid he like lives in his own like emotional thoughtful world around the guys that's not nobody's saying oh ruain he's really emotionally sensitive that even in that's but his wife is going to be the luckiest wife of anyone in that yeshiva so I it's important to explain to our kids they didn't reject you they have certain measuring sticks and it wasn't right for them but they don't know what an incredible sister you are they don't know what a balas you are they don't know what a daer you are and that's not their job to know. This is what Hashem, you know, this is where Hashem put you. You didn't get into that seminary, but that's not a testament on you. No, you know, and as a camp director, I'm sure that you could back me up on this that when you reject a child, by no means is your intention to reject a child. >> 100%. Yeah. >> To be spoken out. >> We do. We try. Right. And yeah, you know, to your point, I speak >> to explain it to the children. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And start then it has to be something that's ingrained. And the last point if I could just say one other thing >> is that and this does get back a little bit to our society a little bit. If I raise my children that the badges that I hope that I wear on my lapel are that I went to Brisk or I went to this seminary or I went to you know this and that's what I carry with me and then my child doesn't get into those places then I could be I destroyed my child. But if I raise my children that everyone's here on a journey to serve Hashem, you know, I have I my my children are all over the map and different yeshivas. If I gave you the list, you would be like, whoa, you know, and I love and deeply respect each of them deeply and they know it. And I'm not Some of them are much stronger in learning than others. And they're going to hear this podcast by the way. >> So Hindi, by the way, so Hindi, I'm not hiding from them. You know, some of them I have, you know, I I have some children that are powerful in learning. I have other children that aren't as powerful in learning, but they're super powerful in other areas and I try at least to the limited ability Hashem gave me to give over to each of them. That's their hat. I had a son that was struggling and I two years ago I brought him to Israel and he was a mifa age really having a hard time and it was like a middle of this man and I brought him to my rash to David in Israel and I introduced him and I said my son is here with me. I brought in ter because he's been going through a difficult time and he's such a warrior to to that I wanted to bring him to Israel and I saw my Rashiva looked at my son he's like did you hear what your father just called you was that moment was I think it's also like if we if it's if it has to be the label the moid the title the type if we raise our children that's what's important and that's what's so so super important to us then we're going to be in trouble trouble when our child doesn't get into a place like that because we raised them that that's everything but we have to raise them with other values. I don't even think what I'm saying is so controversial. >> Well, let me try to help you understand why it might be. >> That's what Bill's here for, ladies and gentlemen. >> That's my job. The word that you know you're talking about is resilience, right? Building kids with a level of resilience that they could deal with life's troubles and foibless and not get rejections and stuff like that. And there's this constant dialogue going on in the world of Kino between setting standards, making expectations, pushing kids higher, holding them high, saying that you know we strive for excellence and in contrary saying we love you just the way you are. You be you zusha yourself up just fine. You know, don't do a thing more. Don't do anything more. And I think that's where I would maybe push back and try to understand what you're saying better because you're saying we go say Hindi you're so special. Does that really build resilience? Does that really teach Hindi to you know take care of life's troubles? Shouldn't we say Hindi you stink and then she'll really be built up? You know obviously we wouldn't do that but you know what I mean. So are we building kids that are just too soft and can't handle life? I mean our kids are so soft today. one little thing, we take care of it for them. >> I have a friend who said that a great line. He said, "It used to be the helicopter mom, right?" He said, "We don't have any helicopter moms. We have snowplow moms and that they just they don't care who they're blocking in, right? They don't care whose mirror they're taking off. The second anything happens to their child, they snowplow their way in. They say Brisk didn't say anything nice, you know, he whatever that didn't express love and all this stuff." That's an extreme. Okay. But are we too soft? Is are we making this problem ourselves because we're so scared that our child might go off to Derek or something? >> I think that's an important conversation. I don't think it has to do with this conversation. In other words, I think that and we should talk about that. But I think that this type of teaching my child to understand what who they are, you know, like the Mosers say that it's bad if a person doesn't know their but it's even worse if they don't know their mileas. Our kids have to know they're mileas and they have to be given mileas and values that are important. >> You're bringing up a little bit of a I understand that it's a very related topic, but you're bringing up this thing like in today's society, we're so we're so affirming everyone and we're so being, you know, accepting and we're so, you know, being loving to everyone where they're at that that are we just creating a world where doing nothing. And the truth is that it's a very serious maybe this is the tough issue of our generation in some way in terms of the you know we have a lot of issues but in the inter >> it's you know you know we're we used to have a very strong and then we kind of shifted over and we're I think we're struggling to find ourselves a little. So I heard in your presentation and maybe I misheard but I heard someone saying that wherever my kids go to yeshiva I'll be happy and that's okay which means that when the kid was young let's say seven years old and he was saying what are my shifas for shifas brisk smiths we don't care if you go to brisk or if you go to whatever the opposite of that is no place name you know we're happy we love you so how does that play into it >> I'm happy you brought that up I'm happy that you brought that out because if you heard that in what I said, probably other people will also. So, I appreciate that. >> I didn't hear I didn't hear that in what you said, by the way. So, I'm just letting you know. I think most people didn't, but Garfield's entire opinion >> wants to bring it out. But because and I'll tell you the difference, and it really is fundamental. I really am happy that you're bringing it out because it's very important. I am not happy wherever my kids go. Absolutely not. I'm not happy wherever they go. I'm happy when they go to the place that's right for them. And that's a big difference. Different kids have different abilities, different challenges, and have to surmount different things. I happen to have right now a son in Brisk, by the way. >> Very, I'm very proud of you and the rabbiton. >> Don't say that. I want to tell you something. I have a I have different children in different places. When my son got into Brisk, I sat down with my wife and I said, "We're as proud of him as we are of every one of our children for being in the place that they belong to be." I'm not buying into that culture. My son got into Brisk. Had he not gone to Brisk, that would have been a disappointment for all of us because he belongs there. >> Now, what happens if he didn't get into Brisk? >> We were very worried for him. That would have been very painful for him. And we and I spent a lot of time on the phone with him talking about that. You should know we discussed that and we discussed like you know you know exactly some of this conversation I we discussed with him to accept that's the rat and hashem and to know that it's not puga voga to his greatness and learning and so on and so forth. My point is that it's and this is a big deal. You know, Gary Garfield, I want to tell you an incident. I actually said this or you were talking about the your children. I said this over once in a Q&A that you know so so this son that I brought to Erit Stroll, this one that was struggling. So we used >> the warrior >> the warrior my warrior. >> Yeah. >> So we used to have this back and forth when it was hard for him to get up. Now he was struggling with anxiety and so it was really hard to get up. So we used to have this thing and I would say okay get up right now and he would say and any parent is familiar with this. He would say I can't. This is exactly what Garfield you brought up. It's right here. I was like what do you mean you can't? You have two feet. Get up. And he would say I can't get up. I'm telling you I can't get up. And I feel like saying if I put a gun to your head you would get up. So you can. This is a back and forth of my son and I. And by the way, when I said this over by Q&A, my son was sitting there. >> Wow. >> He got up and joined the conversation. >> Was that you said the gun line to him? >> I didn't say it. That could be said. I wasn't like, you know, like that, you know, >> and we had this tug-of-war. We did have this tug-of-war back and forth. How much can I understand what his limit is and how much to push him? And I want to tell you something, and that's Rabbi Garfield, this is why I'm very sensitive to what you said. If we don't push our children where we should, it's not just that we're failing them. They are going to come back to us with tightness. >> They're going to come back when they're 30 years old and they can't get hold a job and they can't learn a typhus. They're going to say, "Where were you when I was a smart young kid and you weren't pushing me to learn?" They kids need of course need to be told to learn and need to be encouraged the right way and so on. Nobody should misunderstand me the right way with the right etc etc. But of course, there needs to be boundaries and gdorum and they have to and so on. I mean look at the little shyness of the Rambam and so on. It's very strong. On the other hand, we also have to be really understand our children and know what the limits are and sometimes that you know sometimes a father and mother will have will go at it about this. My wife and I have done this many times you know and we've had back and forth you know we you know where one of us is taking the more hard line get that kid out of bed and the other one is like oh you know I'm the waterberry one. And I'm usually the one saying let's understand him but between the two of us and we've gone for also you know we've we've gone to ask other people as well and I'm not just talking about my warrior they're all warriors you know my son and you know you know going through his things and he's a mitsuyan and he's doing great but each one has their challenges and I think this is a kilk in our in our generation that's why I'm sorry I'm excited you're going to have to cut me off at some point because we live in a world of either or. Either I'm sitting with long hair and a guitar and just going on and on all day not doing anything or I'm sitting over a gumar the entire day this and that. If someone sings a those are my two choices. There has to be such a thing as carrying both where to the extent that I could push I wanted I want my children to strive for excellence. I want them to be the top of their game, but I want them to be the top of their game. And when that when they're doing their best with the Hashem gave them, I want them to truly feel accepted and proud of themselves. And ultimately, even if they'll I think they could do better and they don't, ultimately they have to know always that I love them and accept them. But that's part of the tug of war of is that I have to try to push them to excel. Am I am I >> It's right on going back to what you said about the parents who are giving these messages. It takes a lot of security. All right. In your own religious stature, beard length, all the things you need to be able to say that I'm okay with my kid regardless of where they go as long as they're fulfilling where they need to be. That's hard. That's a hard message. It's a nuanced message and a hard message. And you know for a RV or mechanic or whatever I you know to say that and I also feel that way and I have kids also in a wide spectrum. We could compare notes whose spectrum was wider at different time but >> yeah we should ask him at sunshine for his eighth grade report card Garfield. >> Oh no he I'm sure I outdo him on that. But anyway, you know we could say that but I think that people who are softer have a don't have that level of confidence. It's a really hard thing to do. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's very hard. I want to I'm going to say something strong and then I'll say and I'll get softer. Okay. Go for it. >> It's be hard, but your children's lives depend on it. >> That's first of all. But parents shouldn't feel like they're alone. They should reach out to their to their and they should get those people that that could encourage them to stand strong. We have to advocate for our kids to our kids and for our kids that as long as they're building themselves the way wants they, you know, that's what Hashem wants from them, >> right? And Maybe just to reiterate one of the things you said in the beginning and that is that if we're able to bring up healthy children who have a healthy self-esteem and really know their mile and not just know that they're great but they're great at but as you were saying before then it becomes doable that when you don't get into a seminary or to yeshiva or to camp or to sh the triage afterwards of just because you didn't get in don't let them define And you you have all of these ba just because they said no they don't rec whatever it becomes doable but as opposed to just in the moment saying ah stupid stupid yeshiva stupid camp stupid you know seminary >> 100% 100%. Ronnie Sunshine that was really very inspiring veryistic I think what we covered are very important for every parent because we don't know the direction our kids are going to go in and there is rejection coming or maybe not or maybe yes in different places and children really look to their parents as a guide of confidence and belief in them and how that parent navigates it really makes a huge difference >> right and as you you said just previously Parenting is not easy, you know, and it's not easy. And it's so much easier to play the my child is a victim and I'm going to blame the world and get angry at everyone when he or she doesn't get into whatever place you're going to get into when invariably for Ruba the Ruba people, super people that that rejection is going to come at one point in their life. You know, my my children are not in shim yet and I we're still in the innocent stage. Uh, and I would >> Yes, thank you. And me and my wife talk about this. We're like, could you We say this. Could you imagine? We think our children are the best ever. Right. So, our child gets read to someone and a family says no to us. It's how her we're like, "No, not arrogant. Stop laughing." No, my wife is maybe I'm the one and my wife is doesn't have an ounce of Ga in her. It's like, do you know how pain that what a rejection? It's like they're rejecting the entire 25 years that we've tried to instill in our No, >> it's like oh my gosh. >> Exactly. The whole conversation is worth it. You know, I think there's a lot of important points in the conversation, but this nuda, you know, believe in yourself, believe in your children, >> right? believe that just because they said no, we don't fit for them, but like don't let that just destroy 25 years of it's so, you know, >> beautiful. All right. Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate you coming on. >> Thank you so much. It was and an opportunity. Thank you. >> We've been we've been, you know, it was our third year. I don't know close to 30 or 40 episodes. It doesn't happen every time. Our we've had amazing episodes. Once in a while you're listening to someone talk of talk and you're just like whoa. >> That was you say this. I thought that was a wo the way sun and shine >> expressed our job as parents the way in which the difference between allowing others to define your child for you is a weakness on your part not a strength. You know don't just react for the victim but build them up beforehand. That would that was special. >> Yeah, it really was. And it's so much more than rejection. Although that's what we sort of said the topic was, but it's just so much broader than that, >> right? Because rejection is you struggle with rejection when you haven't built your child financially the right way. >> It's a sim. It's like the test the ultimate test if you were successful. >> I I will sh I will say this that he's a very confident father because his children are going to hear this episode and we have the warrior and we have Hindi. I feel like I know the whole Sunshshire family. I feel like I'm >> Brisker who almost didn't get into Brisk. >> Yeah. But no, it was beautiful. It really was. >> He's a wonderful person and I've heard of him. I didn't meet him yet. So, you know, it was nice that he was up to the >> up to what I expected more. It was really something special. >> As you mentioned in the beginning, our next episode will have feedback and use some of the letters and voice notes we've gotten and they're great. So, we want to encourage everyone to keep sending them. The way to get in touch is by calling 443-686-9339. Again, that's 4436869339. Or you could send the email to the learning [email protected]. That's the learning curve mishbah.com. >> Rabbi, pleasure as always. >> All the best. Take care.