Myth and reality (part 3) | Rabbi Shai Finkelstein

Hello everyone. So we will start our first the show is sponsored in memory of Mel and Sylvia Davis. So um we are obviously doing it for the neshama. So what we saw last time was the really to try to find from different sources um this source about the Maharami Rothenburg. And we saw that it's not that clear exactly was he captured? Was he not captured? If he was captured, did he really refuse to be redeemed? Or he says it's okay. And not only that, the Rosh, his student was one of the not one of, he was appointed to really what? Sign the deal. And then the Maharami passed away in jail and the Rosh realized that what? He needs to get out of there, right? So we spoke about the fact that the story as we know it which is what? That the Maharami Rothenburg says no, I refuse to be redeemed because you know, the community will lose all its money and I don't worth it and I I don't deserve it. We didn't find yet a source for it. Okay. So now we are on page three. And we are in the Yam Shel the Maharshal. So we are talking about the better 16th century. And um he is dealing really with the Mishnah in Gittin that talks about ransoming the captives and from there he mentions the story. Now we are talking already about the 16th century. The Maharami Rothenburg story was when? Late 13th century. Maximum maximum early early 14th century, but probably late 13th century. So we are talking about much later. So he says the following, page three. Matnitin. Ain podin et ha-shvuyim yoter mi-dei dmeihem. So the says what? That you are not allowed to ransom the captives more than they worth. Now, that's obviously uh I would say a very subjective uh que- you know, definition because it depends who you ask. So he basically defines it by why? By by by what? By selling them in the marketplace for slavery. Which means you take a person and say, "Okay, how much I will get for him as a slave? 50 shekels? Okay, that's what you are allowed to what? To ransom him for, but more than that, not." We're to go into it too much. Which means the mission says that you are not allowed to ransom the captives more than they worth. Why? We play tikkun olam. Now, what is tikkun olam? Don't say fixing the world, but basically to write to create some kind of a standard. So, why do we do that? Is that because of the sake of the community? Or for what? To prevent more kidnappings. Because if I'm a kidnapper and I know that for every Jew I will receive what? $10 million. Even if the community worth trillions of dollars, you are basically encouraging the kidnapper to what? To do more. So is that for the sake of the community or or is that in order to what? To prevent more kidnapping? Tashma So, Levi ransom his own daughter for a tremendous amount of money. 12,000 dinarim. Am ar Amaye, so here is the proof that what? That you can give more than the value if you have the money. So, it seems to be that the reason is for the community because the community will be poor, but if I will not be poor, I have the money. Go ahead and do it. So, the Gamara says who told us that he asked the Rabbis? You know, this is by the way a very important rule. If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask. Okay. Okay, and we really we did not resolve the issue. So, we still don't know why the Mishnah said that you cannot ransom the captives more than their value. And the Tosafot made a question and the Rosh So, Tosafot brings a story from Ketubot that for your own wife, if the first time that your wife was kidnapped and they ask for 10 times more than the value, you can what? You can give it. So, it seems to be that what? That there are no restrictions, right? So, he says, "No, no, no. Ishto kegufo." Which means if you are kidnapped and they ask you for a million dollars and you have it no one tells you what? Don't do it because for myself, I can save myself the way I want. We are talking only about what? Others. And because his wife, your wife is like yourself, so you can what? You can add more money. So, still we don't resolve the issue. Vechan talmid chacham shenishba. Beha lo taknu Rabbanan. If a talmid chacham was captured or was kidnapped the Rabbis did not tell you to what? Not to give more than just the value. If you want to give more you can give more. Now, I understand a little bit of nepotism, that's okay, but we deserve it from time to time. But the thing is is our favorite, is it not nepotism? But the idea is what? Is that if you have a shinnishba, that he was kidnapped, you are allowed to what? To ransom him even more than the value. Lefi And he says that Rabbi Yehoshua, there's a story that he went to ransom um a child in prison that was in the Roman time, and this child told him a pasuk, and Rabbi Meir was so amazed by this child, and he saw great potential, and he paid more than its value. So says the Mahari the Maharshal, here there is an example for what? That you are allowed to ransom someone more than its value, and it's not only your wife, but also talmid chacham. So, if that's true, could the community ransom the Maharal of Rothenburg more than its value? Sure. Now, the Gemara does not discuss if the talmid chacham can say what? No, I don't want it. From our perspective, we can do it. But the Gemara did not discuss his perspective, can he refuse? R' Chinya Redasa Rambam Zichrono Livracha She Katav B'Perek Chet M'Hilchos Matnos Aniyim, that also seems to be the opinion of the Rambam. That it says Ein Podin Es Ha'Shvuyim B'Yeter Al K'Dei D'Meihem Mipnei Tikun Ha'Olam. Says you cannot ransom the captives more than their value because of what? Sh'Lo Yihyu Oyvim Rodfim Achareihem Lishbotam, in order not to encourage their enemies to kidnap them. V'Im Kein Tikshalana Ee D'Amrinan B'Perek Ha'Nizakin D'Rabbi Yehoshua Pada Lo Oto Tinok B'Mamon Arbeh. So then, if according to the Rambam, he says what? That you are not allowed to ransom the captives more than their value. So, what does he do? What will the Rambam do with the story that Rabbi Yehoshua ransomed this child more than its value. That's according that's against what the Rambam says. So, he says Yesh Lo Mar Basically, he says that Talmid Chacham that we know that he is a Talmid Chacham is even more than a king. So, if a king and a Talmid Chacham were captured, who do you ransom first? The Talmid Chacham. If the king is also a Talmid Chacham, >> You ransom him first. >> It never happens, so don't worry. So, the thing is is what? Is that we The what? I'm sure it was a joke, okay? Preference, joke. So, the thing is the thing is is what? Is according to the Maharsha, we have what? We have the idea that Talmid Chacham because it's he is so value valuable, so there is no value for so it's under the definition of the Halacha, which means the value of the Talmid Chacham is no value, and therefore it's not >> infinite value. >> infinite Thank you. Value, which means basically the restriction of the Mishna does not apply on him. Ve'eetna If he's not a Talmid Chacham, he's not there yet. I agree. You are asking good question. What's happen if I don't know the chief of staff was kidnapped? Okay? Is he also someone like a Talmid Chacham in terms of what? Of importance and value. Okay? Or do we do it really when you have a group of people and let's say they caught five Talmidei Chachamim. So, what do you do? You give them a test and anyone who scored more than 95 will be ransomed and anyone who got less than 95 will not? So, obviously we have we have issues like that. Yes. >> I wanted to ask you a question. Isn't the definition of a talmid hakham subjective? Who makes that Who makes that decision? >> So, it seems to be what they say here that it's someone who is known to us, meaning he became like the posek for the for example, the Maharami Rothenburg We are talking about him. He was definitely recognized by everyone as the authority. Yes. >> I think it's sort of related to the other question. There's a loophole. If a person is a talmid hakham, we value that. But if you go into the market, I don't know if they would value it. You know, they want the guy who's stronger and bigger and uh able to lift heavy things. So, it's kind of a difference in value from our perspective and then we could maybe get a bargain because the guy is uh you know, not so strong. You know? >> So, the the the interesting part is that the enemies really through the generations, they knew Yeah, they knew that who are they who are they taking. Um okay, and then it says "Ve'eidna" and today in our time, says the Maharshal in the 16th century, uh he says "Anshei Gomilei Hasadim be'eretz Togarmah ve'hasmukhhim lahem" Where is Eretz Togarmah? Turkey. So, he knows what's going on there and he says "They have a custom to ransom the captives with more money than than their value." "Ve'haynu dem mevatrim al dukhkayu detzibura shel hem. Hashem yosef askharam." "Ufe'ulatam lifnei Hashem tzefun ba'olam haba." He says "They should be blessed." However, "Gam ba'avonoteinu le'et atah nitma'atu Yisrael bagolah ve'yeish lakhus al yetar hapleitah shelo tikabe gahalit Yisrael." "Vegam le'et azot makpidim al Yisrael isurim ve'inuyim lekhofam kedei la'avor al hada'at vela'asot melakhah bashabbat shelo letzorekh." So, he says in today's world, we really in a way ignore what the mission says. And we try to pay to ransom the captives even if it's more than their value. You know why? Because they are being afflicted. And they are being forced to convert to Christianity or Islam. We are afraid that what did the kidnappers will do what? Will kill them. When there is such a risk for their lives, you ransom them even more than their value. By the way, just as a side note, and we will get to the Rothenburg in a second. You know, I'm I'm sure that all of you have in mind obviously the hostages. >> Yeah, why? Why is it when the hostages were captured that people were talking about how the Rothenburg refused to allow people to redeem him and therefore you shouldn't redeem this is what I heard. >> Okay. Um >> That they That people just make things up. >> So no, there is a story about the Rothenburg. I I wanted to talk about this issue from a totally different perspective. You can see how difficult it is to derive any conclusions from this year to the modern issue of the hostages. Here we are not talking about money. We are talking about national security. We are talking about releasing not millions of dollars, but releasing terrorists. They are in jail not because they crossed the street in a red light. Most of the terrorists who were released in all those deals I'm not criticizing. I'm just facts facts have blood on their hands, which means they murdered Jews. And they will do it again, as we all know, and they did. Because they don't have any other job. That's the only thing they know what to do. So, here we are not talking about are we going to pay $2 million, $5 million, $3 million? It's something totally different. This is on a national scale. Those issues were not discussed in the Mishna. We are talking about money and maybe even sakanat nefesh, a life and death and life issue, but for whom? For an individual. But not for the state, not for the people, not for the nation. What I'm saying is that when the hostages were in in Gaza, and always, you know, people start quoting from this Mishna, and I was like, you can't. This is just a What do you say? Apples and and oranges? Here the issues are you need to do statistically in a way, you know, if you want to analyze this this this terrible question, is that you need to see based on the history of releasing terrorists for different deals, what did they do? How much and then the You know what's on the scale? Not $7 million versus zero. It's about what? One Jew for 20 dead. This is the question. That's totally different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that's where the state of Israel basically creates totally different question. It sounds the same, but it's totally different. So, there are some fundamentals here that we can learn from, but you can't just copy paste. Ah, there is sakanat nefashot, we should do everything. Now, we we are talking about something else here. Okay. And then he says Shamati He's in the 16th century, you remember. Shamati Maramin Rothenburg oh Here is our old style. Shayata fus the Migdal Igsam Kamashani that he was captured in this tower in Germany for few years. Viasat the Maramin Sakigol and the government of Germany or whatever that the prince he asked the key lot of the communities to pay a tremendous ransom for the Maramin Rothenburg. Vakaylo are you wasting your time? And the communities wanted to to ransom him. Velo him near the first time. And he did not let them do it. Kiyama and for the matter of showing you to make them because he said what? Is it Mishnah? You cannot ransom the captives more than their value and therefore don't ransom me with his crazy amount of money that he is asking for. Now, stop here for a second. You know, I'm interested in the Halacha but I'm also interested in the story. This is the first testimony that we have that he was captured that we already had. But the fact that what? That he refused to be ransomed. Now what do you think about the testimony that was written three centuries after something happened? And in centuries closer to that that was not mentioned and not only that exactly the opposite. The son of the Rosh of Yuda, you remember him? Of Abena Asher, Abena Asher was the talent of the Maramin Rothenburg. He the son testifies that his father was appointed to be the guarantor for the deal. And then he left Germany and went to Spain. So, what do you think about such a testimony? Questionable. Let's put it like that. Very questionable. Now, it's questionable A because of the time that passed. A, B because of the halakha. And that's what the Maharshal says, "V'tamehani." I I'm surprised. He was the halakhic authority known for halakha, for Gemara, for parashah, for everything. And the communities are allowed to what? To ransom him for whatever money they can come up with. And if he was so humble, so he didn't view himself as what? As this halakhic authority, and therefore he refused to what? To be ransomed. He says, "You want to be humble, that's wonderful. But he says, So he says, "I don't understand. Why would he refuse? A, he is the halakhic authority. B, even if you don't view yourself as a halakhic authority, you know that what? That you're going to not be able to maximize your potential in Torah learning." As the Maharal of Rothenburg himself writes in some of his teshuvot, "I am now in a dark room. I don't have a candle, and I don't my books with me, so I'm just trying to what? To write from my memory, but it's probably will not be accurate." So he himself knew that what? That by being stuck there, he is losing on the Torah that he can learn, and he can definitely what? Teach. So "I'm surprised," says the Maharshal. So he says, "I will tell you why the Maharal of Rothenburg said no. He also knew the Halakha. But, he basically thought that what? That if he would say yes, what do you think the prince will do? Kidnap the next one in line. And then, the community will come to a time that they will have no money. So, this is why he refused. He got Shmati. He also heard the Maharshal Shaya be that the two of them had to post them at the Rosh tell me though they know that all the Barack to the Tila then it's all the Halakha or the roof has to have it. He says, "I also heard that this prince of Germany, he wanted to capture whom? The Rosh. Rabbeinu Asher. And Rabbeinu Asher heard about this conspiracy and what did he do? He fled. He ran away. Now, the son, the Rosh's son, Rabbeinu Asher, what was his reasoning why the Rosh fled to Spain? Do you remember? Be- because he was the guarantee. And the prince said, "You are the guarantor. You should pay even though the Maharama of Rothenburg is already what? Dead." So, it's not that he wanted to capture the Rosh. He just wanted the Rosh to what? To pay. So, the Rosh fled. So, look what's going on here. The son, who is the closest, he testifies the reason the Maharshal, who is three centuries later, never obviously saw not the Rosh, not Rabbeinu Asher, and definitely not the Maharama of Rothenburg, and he also he is Shmati. So, you can see how a tale, a story, is basically mitgalgel, goes from one generation to another, and then they build what? The the reality of their own. So interesting in terms of how stories comes along. Yeah, so we I I don't know if you were here for the first two classes. Okay, so we spoke about yet. So we the that's the third that's the third class. Yes, so We have that's what we have. Like everything that is on those source sheets, that's what I know exist. It might be that there are more. I don't think so, but it might. I don't want to say that I have all the sources. So he says so therefore that's why the Maharam of Rothenburg says, you know what? I can't accept. I cannot be ransomed because that will be a disaster for generations to come. So the Maharshal, 16th century, so now we have a testimony about this story that the Maharam was captured that I think everyone agreed, but the fact that he did not want to be ransomed, that's was what? That's was in the Maharshal. Now the next the next story is really Ba'alei ha-Tosafot Urbach. Okay? Urbach with his monumental work of what it's called Ba'alei ha-Tosafot Agudatam Shitatam ve-Limudam something like that. He wrote about almost all the Tosafot that exist. Telling something about their background, who were their students, something about their methods and things like that. By the By the way, highly recommended to buy and to read. Ba'alei ha-Tosafot shel Urbach. It's called Ba'alei ha-Tosafot Toldoteihem Hiburam ve-Shitatam. Okay, that's the that's the name of the book. It's Mosad Bialik. So he brings the following. He says "Ve-ha-Maharam nitpas lo rak ke-hote ela gam ke-mahti ke-ahrai le-tenuat ha-briha kula. Uvda zu yesh ba kedai le-hasbir et kifuto shel Rudolf be-yahaso la-Maharam." He says the Maharam wanted to escape Germany. And as I said before, I think in the first class that he was probably on the way to where? To Israel. And he was caught where? In Italy. By that the story that one of the uh Jews who converted to Christianity recognized him and then they extradited him to Rudolph, the king of uh or the prince of Germany. And he says that that's is probably why he was treated so harshly because how dare you what? Get away from Germany, leave Germany without my permission. So, he says I'm I'm sure I'm I'm sure that what that the communities and other rabbis and whoever tried to what to get the Maharami Rothenburg out of prison. And you can also see that the Maharami was aware that there are attempts to what to release him from what he wrote in one of his interpretations where he says the Zeraim and Taharot of Shelly, meaning my interpretation for Seder Zeraim and Taharot, which is part of the Shas. Basically, he says in his interpretation, he says I I will finish this when? When I will be released. So, the Maharami knows that what that there is an attempt to release him. He doesn't say what? Don't. He understands that he's needed. So, he says the feed corn is still not three. He says based on a Christian writer the Jews approached Rudolph in 1288. Um 20,000 mark. I don't know how much is that today, but if everyone anyone here is very quick with AI, uh do it because I am interested to see how much 20,000 mark 12 1288. Okay. So, they offered, which for me which means it was recorded in the documents that they found that the Jews offered Rudolph 20,000 mark to release their rabbi, the Maharal of Rothenburg. And also our Hukrim found some kind of uh of hints to this discussion and negotiation between the Jews and Rudolph in our sources. The what? Uh-huh. Okay. That's not that terrible. Yeah. Yes. That's it? Uh, that's not a lot. I'm disappointed. Um so, yeah, but still yeah. Uh Right. Okay. So, that's uh that's a serious money. That's a serious money, but also by the way, it just tells you about the wealth of the community. Communities. Okay, so that's interesting. >> 25 million USD. >> Okay. >> 20,000 cows. >> Okay, so we are talking about a nice amount of money. And but basically what the Or Bach says is that not every chuva that you can find that there is a negotiation between Rodulf and the communities it's about ransoming the Maharal of Rothenburg. But between all the documents that you can find there is definitely was a negotiation, but what you cannot find in the sources that he want that he refused to be ransomed. >> Can I >> Yeah. >> Um When does it flip over to trusting Hashem and saying we need to do what is right now, what is correct, and Hashem will come in and do whatever is done after, but not only was I hearing that oh, the community might be poorer or just for that it's like it's very complicated. >> It's complicated, but that's what we need to do. We can't just say okay, we will do whatever and Hashem will take care of it. You not You must make >> But how do you when does it flip over to >> This is a question of hashkafah. We're not going to address it now. I mean, I I don't know. Some people live their lives we will do what we will do and Hashem will take care of it. But here you are you are going to tax Jews. You need to come up with a decision. You can't tell a Jew that you tell him okay, you know, until now you paid $50,000 in taxes, now I'm asking you for $120,000 because I need to save this rabbi and don't worry, God will take care of you. He will tell you if you are God, take care of me. But you know, you need to explain it to him. So it's much more than just a the hashkafah. But now I want to surprise you. Because a nature of the story as we as we saw So the entire story of the Maharal of Rothenburg My goal is not to burst your bubble. If you want to believe that the Maharal of Rothenburg was captured and he didn't want to be ransomed, then that's the story. Okay. You can go to sleep nicely and nothing will happen. Because I have a little bit of a head of a researcher, I I I want to know the story. So, this story is questionable bit. But then definitely he was captured. That's for sure. What happened to him? Did he refuse? Did he die before they were able to ransom him? I tend to believe more to the story that we saw by Rabbi Yehuda, the son of the Rosh, who probably heard it from whom? From his father. And his father was At least he was a talmid of the Maharal of Rothenburg, that we know for sure. And he was close to the story in time in time and in closeness to the Maharal of Rothenburg. Okay. >> He would have visited him in prison? >> Sure. There are two books that the Rosh went to the Maharal of Rothenburg. Some stories are tainted with another story that is very similar to it. By the way, I'm I'm thinking about this story that I'm going to tell you and I'm also thinking about another story that you are all like uh for sure think that it definitely happened, you know. Rabbi Amnon of Mainz. On the Unetaneh Tokef, right? If I'll ask you who wrote the Unetaneh Tokef, you will immediately all answer me together Rabbi Amnon of Mainz. And Mainz is where? Germany, right? And all the story happened in Germany, right? And he, you know, he after 3 days everything was cut and you know, he was the one to uh compose the the tefillah or he was the first one to say it, the Han. Okay. So, the seder. Maybe before Chagim remind me. Be'ezrat Hashem and we'll talk a little bit about that story. Again, it does not take away from the message. I am talking about the authenticity. Okay, so two different things. Okay. So, do we find another very similar story in the 12th century in France? That's a century before the story of the Maharil of Rothenburg. Cuz he was captured around 1280 plus. 12th century we're talking about 11 to 1199. Okay, so it's a century before. So, first let's start with the Gemara. The Gemara says the following in Brakhot. Rav Ashi am "Kivan she mutar alav likavro kimutal lefanav dami shenemar "Vayakum Avraham meal pnei meto." This is really our parashah. Nimar "Vayikaber metim lefanai." Kol zman she mutar alav likavro likavro kimutal lefanav dami. We know we have two different stages. We have aninut, that's between what? Death and burial. And then we have avelut that starts at the minute that the burial is over. So, all the time that you are onen you are exempt from positive commandments, right? Okay, good. Why? Because it's considered like met o mutal lefanav, like the dead is like lying in front of you and therefore you are exempt from all those positive commandments. Good. Take a look at the Sifrut. Adam she'eino yakhol likvor meto, a person who cannot bury his loved one. Lama? Kigon adam shemet bebeit ha'asurim, a person who died where? In jail. Ve'ein hamochel maniakh likavro. And the governor does not allow you to what? To bury him. So, he died in prison and he does not allow you to bury him. Why? Because he wants what? Money. So, what do you do? There is no burial. So, what? He's going to be onen until 2 years from now? Meaning he will not put fillin, he will not say Brakhot, he will not go and govern for 2 years. Sister says no, no, no, no, no. He can do mix what? Even though he did not yet what? Bury him. Why? Because it's not considered like he is responsible to bury him. Why? Because he can't ransom him. Maybe he can, but he just what? Can't afford it. He says because it says if you basically lost hope to bury him he's not your responsibility anymore and you are obligated in all the mix what? Um. Just as a side note. I don't know if you remember but the Arab You remember the navigator? Okay, many, many years ago. So after like 10 or something years they have a new basically told his wife um tomorrow I don't um that hey that she can get this chicken married now. She didn't ask if she can say or not, but the idea is that we lost hope that we'll find him. So a modern issue that happened he was captured in 1982 I think if I'm not mistaken. 86 to the Lebanon war. So I think the first Lebanon war. The first Lebanon war was at 1982 if I remember correctly. October 86, thank you. So and then new built worship for so Michelle got a new to no higher the little dominant to me to go over to some in no go over. So the first one says that what that there is sometimes there is a case that the moshel, that the governor, will not allow you to bury your dead even if you will pay money. Why? In order to cause you more pain. He knows that the Jew wants to bury his loved one, so he will not allow it. Says Beit Habechira Lameiri. So now we are in Rabbi Menachem Hameiri. He is in the late 13th century, beginning of the 14th century, in what we call Perpignan, which is Provence. He says, But Tosafot katvu shebeimeihem, so he brings the Tosafot that says in their days, Tosafot are where? In France. Mostly in the 12th century. Says Echad Rabbeinu Gedoleihem, that it happened to one of their what? Gedolim, which means one of their rabbis of Tosafot. She'tifso shilton, that the governor captured him or kidnapped him. Vemet batfisa, and he died in prison. Velo natnu likvura, and they didn't allow him to what? To be buried ad sheyitnu lo mamon harbeh. Until he will get a nice ransom. Shelo haya safek beyadam bakach. And they didn't have it. Vegam afilu haya safek beyadam, ayu osrin pidyon ze leatzmam beyoter mikdei raui mipnei tikun olam. And even if they would have the money, they would not do it. Why? Because the Mishnah says, you cannot ransom the captives more than their value. And then he says, Vehu Rubba, she'afilu bechein ein ze karui nityashu leinyan sheyakhol avelut. Shemikol makom, ein ze yush. Legamrei. O ilu Umikol makom mitzad acher oru binyan ze she'eino karui mutal lefanav le'osro babasar veyayin o ilu eino mutal achshav likvuro. So Tosafot is dealing with the issue, if I am not going to ransom him, because I don't have the money, can I start my avelut? Why? Because there's no way I'm going to get him, so aninut is over, but what about avelut? Okay? I'm not going to go into these details. I am more interested in what? The story. Toss what is telling a story that in France one of the latest thought was captured and died in prison and they did not have money to ransom him and even if they would they would not. They will not release him. Now, this is obviously a contrary story. Right? Because in Germany the story was that what? That they wanted to ransom him. And then he just died in prison according to the Rosh. So, sometimes you can have stories that have the same storyline but the outcome or the or the results or the end is very different and then with years the stories are what? Are basically emerge. Yes. >> Was that a common thing in the Middle Ages, too? Kidnapped to capture Jewish people and ask I mean this was like a common place thing? >> Mhm. >> You had to worry about being kidnapped? >> Oh, yeah. And also in the time of the Mishnah, especially in the time of the Romans later on. Sure. Yeah. Jews were kidnapped and captured and yeah. >> And how would you determine value? You talk about slave in the marketplace, but you talk about a a corpse. I mean how do you value a corpse? >> Very good question. By the way, again another modern state of Israel question. Um it was after the second Gaza war or a third, whatever it was, 2000 I think and six. So, until Philadelphia there was an explosion and and some soldiers were basically were killed and the body parts were all over and they sent a a pluga, a unit to try to what? To find the body parts risking their lives. And there was a big question. Should I risk my life for what? For body parts. Not if it's for a real for a living person, that's one thing. But the question is about what? Is about body parts. So, that was a major question. Again, what's the So, obviously a value of a dead person is I mean, much less than a value of a living person. But here, because it's the state of Israel and because it's the army and because we want to show our enemies that we are exactly the opposite from them, do it This is also a value. So, how do you value a value? That's That's one of the things that we have here in the state of Israel which we never ever really um met. I mean, questions like that. Yes. >> In this war, it got so skewed that they would take in staff to identify bodies. Shamash, we would take bodies out and and be accused by the world of stealing our bodies. That also happened. >> And >> And and those who went in to identify some were injured. >> So, this is where that that question it's a moral question on both ends, by the way. You know, sometimes to be too moral and it endangering yourself, it's also immoral. You with me? Those are the real questions. With all due respect, that was discussed until now because we didn't have it. So, again, we can derive some fundamentals, but we can't we can't derive all the answers. Yes. >> I mean, Hatzalah from Gush Etzion risked his life by going into very unsafe areas to rescue dead soldiers in 1948. >> Yeah. Maybe he felt that this is where you have the Avot Am Yisrael. I mean, there is a lot to discuss. Look, when you are in the army and you have this feeling of brotherhood and when you send your kids to the army, you expect the state to do everything they can and and the soldiers themselves basically uh they know that they can totally trust what? Their friends that they will do everything to save them. Um and it was also interesting that some of the soldiers, you know, wrote, "If I was If I'm going to be captured, don't release anyone for me." So, you had It's always like that. You have people who says, "Do everything in order to save me." And the and I'm not here, you know, it's not about it really I I just want to be clear. It's not to judge anyone, but I'm just saying that op- all the opinions must be heard. And I think that really at the time of the hostages, I don't think there was um I was hoping that after the hostages are back, that there would be a real direct honest discussion about situations like that. >> Well, you have the airline. The airline does this with the Dubai >> Oh, they fly Dubai? >> They they fly Dubai. The question was, are they going to knock them out? Or are they try going to try to save them? And if things hadn't happened for Hashem, they did happen, there could have been a lot of dead people. >> That's just >> We could have had to do that. >> Right. Just imagine. I mean, the the thing was Yeah, I I will say if the Fly Dubai flight, whatever, if those Israelis, brave Israelis, will not be able to basically naturalize the the terrorists and the airplane would come into Israeli air space, they will send an F-16 to shoot it down. Knowing that they are going to kill all everyone who's on the airplane. But that was in order to save what? That that this airplane will not crash into Ben Gurion Airport or army base or I don't know, a neighborhood and kill hundreds of people. Can you imagine being the pilot in this F-16? >> Same America had it 9/11. Same thing. They >> you know they were ready to shoot down a plane if they thought it was going to go into the capital. >> So these are different I mean I will say it again for the first time I think these are totally different questions. They didn't address it because it didn't exist. It just did not exist. We are not a nation. You don't have a country. You're not talking about national security. You're talking about individuals. That's the also by the way this is where um sometimes I feel that um that what some people don't understand some sectors in in the society is that we are not talking only about individuals anymore. Or even communities. We are talking about a nation. And a nation has different rules. You can't compare the needs of a nation or expectations of a nation to an individual. As great he or she can be. >> Every situation though can be different. So the one will be one way one time will be one way. Another time will be a different way because there's no way he makes that call. >> Selling a stand? >> What? And and that's what I'm saying. I was hoping and I obviously was disappointed. Um I didn't hope too much because and that's why I'm not that disappointed. But really after the hostages came back I thought that there will be a real honest conversation with rabbis philosophers policy makers army people government people sitting around the table. Not when you have the pressure of the hostages. They're all back. I mean the people who were able to survive are back. And then really to have a conversation about what we'll do next time. There is a next time. Hashem but there is need to be a discussion as a nation what do we do? I'm not talking about the families. The families can do whatever they think fit. No one should say anything to the families. So here the this is that's what I thought after they are back. And it's not a political issue, it's an ethical issue, it's a is a Israel national security issue. So I Oh no, no, I'm not saying to put it to you know out there, but for us as a policy. And look, you know what? Some people would say if if the end of the day the policy is we not going to give one terrorist, forget it. Maybe it will deter them from doing so. Some people will say exactly the opposite, they don't really care, they will kill them. Right? So obviously no one has a solution. But some kind of an honest discussion, a good discussion not under pressure was never really done. Um by the way, again as a side note in terms of history, we I mean Sinwar and Marwan Barghouti was the one who was released in Gilad Shalit. So I I just picked this example, we can find every example for everyone. I mean All right, now Right. So on this optimistic note, we are going to continue for the last uh show the next time because of the shame because we need to finish it up. But for now, the story of the Maharal of Rothenburg is questionable. Is it questionable?