Navigating Travel: Kashrus on the Road

We get about 50 applications a week. >> 50 a week? >> Yes. >> How many people on the team? Like how do you intake that many? >> I got a question from someone [music] who wanted to know if he would go into space, when would he keep shers? >> What are the most challenging companies to certify? >> Companies that have both kosher and non-coosher wines. If you double wrap your food in two sealed bags, is it actually safe to use a non-coosher hotel microwave? How does Halaka reconcile the extreme strictness of our home kitchens with the leniencies we rely on when we travel? Welcome to Keeping It Kosher, the podcast where we go behind the scenes of the kosher world. I'm your host, Rabbi Ezra Sarna. Today, we're sitting down in the U kitchen with Rabbi Denil Epstein. Beyond his day-to-day work overseeing new companies, Epstein is a true expert in practical halaka. He is here to help us navigate Airbnbs, rest stops, and hotel rooms without [music] compromising on cautious. Travel [music] is a source of stress for a lot of people. I know my Rush Kyle told me that he was once flying on an airplane and both he and his wife are nervous travelers and there was a little bit of turbulence on the plane. So she takes out her tail and he looks at her and says, "Stop saying to him, you're making me nervous, you know." So, so some people get nervous from the travel. Some people get I get nervous from the air when I travel. But a lot of the stress is from the food. When you travel, you don't have the setup that you have at home. At home, we have separate dishes. We have separate counters. Some people have separate sinks, separate uh dishwashers. So, um, are there any general rules or guidelines that people should keep in mind when they're traveling? >> Yes. First thing is to plan ahead. Okay. If you're able to nowadays, it's a lot easier than it used to be. You can use uh the internet, Google, AI to plan a route, you know, wherever you want to go. you know where can you can get kosher food and um you know even when you are you know going to take a you know an Airbnb you know in the middle of the woods you know you can you know stock up on whatever you need in terms of food there's unlikely to be an issue of finding kosher food you know within a 30 40 mile radius of wherever you're going to Now, I once had that experience when my wife and I were first married. This goes back like 37 years or so. We had to do a seed program in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. So, we were at the the we we had to go down on a Sunday from New York, but we were actually in the Catskills for Shabas. And on, you know, this is before the days, you know, of of Map Quest or Ways or Google Maps, you know, you have the oldfashioned paper map and you, you know, you had to kind of figure it out. And I figured it would take, you know, 3 and 1/2 hours. It ended up being a lot longer than that. And of course, we were starving and we pulled into some gas station and we found like one or two things that had [snorts] and you know, that was difficult. You know, 10 years later, I was traveling for the YOU and had a similar experience in Canada. I was going with one of, you know, our Mashkim and, you know, we we stopped off by some gas stations, couldn't find anything kosher. We got over across the border into Maine. The um amount of choices that were available, it was just amazing. You know, there were literally dozens of things that you can have that that reliable coaching certification. on that. Let me ask you, I get this question very often. Very often where a person lives, they know the products that are kasher. They know the products that have hasher and then they go on a road trip and they're in a different state and they find the same exact product, the same packaging. There's just no hashir. Can a person assume that it's the same product and it's if it's kosher where I live, it's kosher here and for some reason the packaging is just different. >> No, never good to assume anything. Um, you [clears throat] don't know if it was made in the same place. I mean we have a policy that you know in the same country you can't have identical product okay that is kosher and non-coosher but sometimes you know things there could be mistakes could be errors um sometimes it could be a product made in a different country and it end up ended up over here you know it's not supposed to happen but you know with all the things that don't are not supposed to happen sometimes they happen so if you don't see the symbol on So you call the the cautious certification agency who who's generally on the product and ask them what's the story. Got it. Okay. Let's get into the common questions. Let's start with hotels. So you you're on the you're on a trip with your family and you uh stay over at the hotel. You get in late at night. You hopefully put your kids to bed. You wake up the next morning and you want a nice coffee. So, in most hotel rooms, they have this little coffee machine and they have these brands of coffees and teas that you've never heard of before. Can you assume that coffee is coffee and it's it's kosher and I can use this coffee machine because nothing's ever been used in it besides for coffee? >> Any coffee that's nonflavored is always going to be kosher. >> Okay? And you know the coffees that are flavored, they do not have a a reliable certification. So I would not use them because of the the flavors may be non-cooser. However, using them if someone else used them, the person who stayed, you know, in the in the room before, >> yeah, >> that will not answer the machine. Okay. the non-cosher flavors, you know, it's a it's a zego room. Um, and it will not make the the the machine not kosher and you can still have your your kosher um, you know, coffee the next morning, no problem. You know, I I've heard these like one-off stories about, you know, there are people who use the machine somehow to make instant soup and, you know, I don't know how to do that. Maybe I'm not savvy enough. But even >> if the need is there, you know, you'll make wacky mac for your kids, you know what I mean? >> But >> yeah, >> I don't you don't have to assume, you know, it doesn't change the the you know, there there's, you know, something is assumed to be kosher. There's of >> Can you elaborate on that just a >> Yes. utensils, equipment, okay, even if they're owned by a non-Jew, are not assumed to be non-cooser. I mean technically they might be you'd have to cauter it but if something was cooked in it the the item would be kosher because we there's an assumption on halaka that the kaim are have not been used for trade within 24 hours. I see >> and this is already said by you know how the um you know it's codified in um the only one who I'm aware of who may dispute it might be the raam you know according to um so that that's that's a huge hatter. So, in other words, if I'm traveling and I mistakenly, let's say I go to Airbnb and I mistakenly use one of their pots or one of their one of their dishes and even if what I use is hot, you're saying ideally, you know, in the first place, you can't do it. But after the fact, if someone would call you with this question, you would say, "Yeah, it probably wasn't used within the last 24 hours, and therefore it's okay. You can eat it now." >> That's exactly what I would say. >> Wow. That takes a lot of stress [laughter] out of out of the kitchen. So, so you're in the Airbnb, you're in your rental home, and there's plates and dishes and cups, or you're in a hotel and they have the mugs, or you're at the hotel breakfast, and they have the plates and the forks. Are you allowed to use those? So, again, I I would not use any real uh cutlery or or plates. I would, you know, obviously plastic is all fine. uh the glasses that are there. If there are no paper cups and they have glasses, I would use the glasses even for hot I would say that that's okay because you can re if you have nothing else to use that's a and you can rely on the opinion you know if you're Ashkenazi that it wouldn't you know the lenient opinion regarding glass. So this is that why people are buying coffees when they're traveling even at non-cosher restaurants and coffee shops. >> Yes, that is the reason why uh it's a common practice you know for last 100 years for people to go into you know non-certified non-co places and get a black coffee. The only exception would be the the more innovative modern places where they have uh food and these new techniques of cleaning where everything is done you know together in a in a they wash everything. So that we recommend to stay away uh from the black coffee even there. I see. In other words, if you have uh a diner, a simple old-fashioned diner, and they have this coffee machine that's only used for coffee, um, and as you mentioned, the coffees don't have any flavors or anything like that. And so the regular coffee is kosher, so there's no issue of trae. But here they have other products. They're not washing them all together. So that that adds traus to the the non-coosher ingredients or >> right that that would so you know old-fashioned diner you know like you you you know grew up seeing you know it's still the same type of diner that there was on >> same benches >> right you know in the 1960s you know those would be fine to get get a black coffee besides for the hus of cash you're driving on the highway and there's a Dunkin Donuts or there's other um stores that sell non-coser Is there any issue of marasai and stopping in these places for the bathroom or for uh for a coffee or for a soda? >> There's only an issue of marasian if it's not normally done. So since uh it's common practice to stop in these places you know for these reasons coke or you know coffee or use the restroom there's no issue of marathon. So besides for a coffee, I know a common question that comes up is slurpees and fountain sodas. If a person stops by a gas station, can you just get any slurpie or fountain soda that you want? >> No, you should look uh you know underneath to see the you know the bag in the box or what's see if you if you see the hexure and if you don't I wouldn't recommend buying it. Just get a closed bottle or can that has a symbol on it. >> Okay. So now we discussed hotels. Let's talk about Airbnbs or or home rentals. You take your family away for a vacation and now in this rental you have microwaves, you have stove tops, you have counters, you know, can you briefly address the issues of these different uh items? >> Yes. So even though we said there was a form, that's only that's after the fact or you're in a tight situation. um you don't take a vacation and just rely on that. So you should um if you're gonna use the the microwave is really the easiest thing to use because if you double wrap something you don't have to cauter it. >> And double wrap means in saran wrap means in in plastic bags >> either or. >> I see. But it has to be plastic. In other words, if I wrap it with paper towels, it doesn't help. Um, no. I I would not recommend that because the the a problem that can come up is the the the the anything that gets hot, you know, the za liquefies and it comes up and the paper towels won't hold it back. Whereas, if you if it's double wrapped plastic, you know, it should hold it in and there shouldn't be any problem. stove tops. Uh, you know, there might be dirt or or grime on the stove itself, but the actual coils, can I just put my kosher pot on top of the coils and use it like that? >> There are different types of ranges. If it's, you know, a gas range, you know, with the oldfashioned fire that goes on. So you can just clean the grate and you know put the fire on for you know 20 minutes and then it's considered kosher and then you can cook your food. It'll be a problem if it's you know glass top stove that would be a problem cuz you can't really cauter glass. I mean glass is a very big enigma in either you can't ker it or it doesn't really get. So of course you know it notes you know you know they they you know might be but never setting and you know what people do is you don't have to conure it. You put something there's a mat that's made to go over these um these glass top stoves. It's called a lumi mat l i. And you put that on you know on top of the and and it's it's a heick. So it divides between the um the the the range and and the pot and you know even if the if the it wasn't clean properly and you know it's it doesn't make a difference it's fine. >> Wow. Is there a difference between Ashkanazm and Spartum when it comes to glass? >> Yes. Um because uh it's it's a question in the in the what exactly is the status of glass is like whereas can become you can't you know the only only thing you do is throw it out and there's one day that holds that you can you can't not only is it is better because it doesn't not ble meaning it doesn't absorb any um at all. >> So, we discussed microwaves, stove tops. What about the countertops? Do you have to do anything with them? >> The countertop is a little bit of an issue because perhaps, you know, there was some hot non-coosh food there. Um you know, even if you want to say, but again, you don't want to, you know, rely on that. So, don't take your hot spoon that you just mixed something with and that's wet and put it on down on the counter. Um, better to put some plastic down or on it to make a little separation between the the kalin that you're using to prepare food now and the countertop. And what about the kettles? It seems like every Airbnb has a nice kettle on top and you make your coffee uh with the kettle on top. Is the kettles just used for hot water? Can you just use any kettle you find in Airbnb? >> Yes, no problem with using a kettle. It's, you know, even if again someone would use it for something other than water, there's there's a principle that you know with kashras ro of tashmish is is how you how you d on on on a clay. You don't have to assume it was made with, you know, with something else that he, you know, made his uh, you know, vegetable soup or chicken soup in there and, uh, you can use it for plain hot water, no problem. >> Would you say someone I had this, somebody called me, they booked tickets for themselves and their whole family. They found like, you know, based on some dance deal thing, $17 tickets to Hawaii. They're like, "We're going to Hawaii." And then it's the day before and they called me up and they said, "I just found out that there's some dine question about Hawaii. Does that mean I can't go with my whole family?" What would you say to such a question? When are you leaving and when are you coming? [laughter] >> You know, if if it's a a Monday through Thursday trip, you know, it's okay. Let's let's try to minimize the question, >> right? um if you had to be there over you know Shabas itself uh I I really wouldn't want to be in that situation. There is a question as to where the date line is. There was an international convention about where to put the international date line. We know where that is but that doesn't have any real bearing on. And there's Mahus between Kazunish and of Tukachinsky from Jerusalem. Um this makus happened in in the early 1940s when the European refugees ended up in Japan on the on their way to China about what day was kipper what day was Shabas. So the Kazones opined based on its understanding of Mishimar that Sha the date line was actually just west of Japan and Shabis should be observed in Japan on Sunday. It was a novelty to a lot of people. I mean it was kind of a new Shiloh because there really isn't really no gay people until then, >> right? >> And Rev. Koshinski put the date line much further uh east and according to him the date line runs like right through Alaska and just on the the uh right outside Hawaii which which would make Hawaii shave on a Friday. Wow. So since it's a doubt as to when chabas would be if you can avoid it I recommend avoiding it. I actually uh was asked this question maybe 25 years ago. There are bunch of people who wanted to book a kosher cruise and they asked me what should they do you know what is going to go on Chavez. So I didn't want to tell them not to. So I went to Rabbi Shaper and he told me straight out that he would not recommend uh doing it for this reason. I was speaking to Rabbi Starvky who's one of the RC's here and I think it was the only time I ever saw him not smiling and I said what's what's going on? So he said I am going to a place in northern Denmark I think it was and because of the time of the year he there was no sunset I believe. Did the post recommend not going to those places also because of uh manum issues? Yes, there's actually uh Rebecc of Emden talks about this. The shadow was brought to him about going to uh Scandinavia in the summer months. You know, what do you do about Chabas? You know, there's no sunrise, no sunset. So, there are a lot of different answers given by the post. Uh but to be frank, none of them really uh make you too comfortable. And Rebecca actually suggests to, you know, avoid going to these places because of this reason. >> Wow. Okay. I want to pivot and just talk about you for uh for a few minutes. You're a Muslim of Berlin. >> Yes. >> And so, how did you uh get from Berlin to to here? >> That's interesting question. >> And you've been here for over 30 years, right? >> Yes. Yeah. Um, I had a neighbor worked in the OU at the time and my wife was pregnant with our first kids. We had twins and um, >> mouth tough. >> I was looking for something um, and my neighbor told me that there's an opening in the AOU, so send in a resume. So I did and um that was that. >> Were you always a bal haka? Did you always like hala? >> Yes, my father is a was a rav um he was from Bridgeport, Connecticut for over 40 years. He's a Muslim Mosha and uh he was always into you know he was into the Shirish alumnus but he wanted it you know me to have a focus on you know practical felt that was very important um you know shouldn't be a from a moll >> and was the was the inherlin into at the time or were you more of like a it was it had to be a side project >> it was a side project. Yeah. It was um now they they have a halak and but in in those days there wasn't such a thing. >> Oh, and when you came into though you was your job, what kind of accounts did they give you? >> Before we brought in Goldberg and I handed it off to him, I was the fisherman, you know, on the on the can of Starkest after Charlie, it was me and then it became Robert Goldberg. [laughter] >> Did you find fish fascinating? Was that, you know, did you like it or you were >> uh I I did like it. I I felt, you know, I I did a lot of research didn't when I was doing fish on fish and fish lists and um I found it to be fascinating. And in the first few months I was here, I went to uh Ecuador, spent a few lovely days there. That's an experience in of itself. And I was in Puerto Rico and and it was and I saw a lot of fish places although Ecuador is still functioning and Puerto Rico I don't think I don't think they make tuna fish there anymore. So >> both of those were tuna fish plants. >> Yeah. >> Wow. Is that where most of the tuna fish comes from? >> Now most of it comes from Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines. >> Wow. So you were involved in fish and then you switched to >> Yeah. Then I became involved with the new company apartment setting up new companies and I somehow was given the responsibility of Far Eastern cultures. >> Really? >> Yes. It's funny in all of my uh interactions um with non-Jews that involve kosher food, there seems to be an assumption out there that kosher food means food that was blessed by a rabbi. Do you get that when when companies come to you and say, "We'd like u certification. Can you come and bless the food?" >> Sometimes sometimes we that that is the assumption and we have to try to explain to the people that's not what happens. Um, I remember hearing a story from one of the kosher wine makers. He first came to this country as a as [clears throat] a a young refugee. He went to see kosher wine production and it was basically a non- kosher company and there was a rabbi who came he went and used the basic say came in made a aar and he pronounced it kosher. [laughter] So yeah I'm sure that didn't help it either. you are working to do away with that misconception, [laughter] >> right? >> And so and and the companies that come you're you're on the intake for the U. How many companies we talking about? How many new companies let's say in in a week come to the OU? >> We get about 50 applications a week. >> 50 a week. >> Yes. >> Wow. How do you how many people on the team? Like how do you intake that many? We have about eight or 10 rabbis in the new company department. Wow. >> And um we're busy. >> And are the companies generally surprised at what's needed for certification? >> Not generally. Yeah. Some some of them are, but over time I think most people have gotten the memo. you know, that's not about the blessing and it's about, you know, the ingredients and and you know, it it we're talking now to a a more savvy group of people and they do internet research and they know a little bit about what they're getting into. >> And what's driving most companies now to get a certification? Is it that they're trying to appeal to the kosher market? the bigger market that you can market to, you're more likely to make money. Um, we do know from supermarket chains that if you have a hure, you're going to be given shelf space, you know, quicker than than if you don't have a hure. >> Are you uh are you looking at their at their products list and are and are you looking at their ingredients? Like, can you do it in your sleep now? you know, in your head you have a database of 10,000, you know, >> you have to [clears throat] look over all the all the ingredients and all the products and um even before the get-go, you know, we review it and say, you know, before we continue, you know, you want to go down this road, you know, this needs to be changed, that needs to be changed, and um most often they're willing to make the changes. Um and if they can't, then then we can't. >> Wow. And are there the same way that technology is advancing and everything is advancing, are the kinds of ingredients changing all the time, do you constantly have to do research on new ingredients you've never seen before? I wouldn't say constantly, but we occasionally. I I would reframe that and say sometimes even old ingredients that have been around for a long time have to be rejudged and you know to see how they're made and and cuz not just are new things being made, there are new ways to make old things. >> Fascinating. And for these companies that you're bringing in, do you have to go visit them on site? Sure. >> Yeah. So, what are some exotic places that you've been to or some strange places you've been to? Nowadays, I don't really have to go myself. I can send other people, >> the young guys, to places that you don't want to go to. >> Exactly. There are people who like to get the miles, you know. Um, I myself have been to China three times. Um, I've been to British Columbia a few times. I've been to the Maritimes in in Canada. I actually did not know until I was there that there is a time zone in North America that is an one hour ahead of New York and that is you know the Maritimes. >> Wow. >> And um so pardon my ignorance. I mean how does the U you said you're in charge of the the um far eastern uh cas how does the U communicate with the people on the ground? I mean I don't speak Chinese. You don't speak Chinese. So we have some people in China who who work for us who are actually Chinese. >> They're Chinese Orthodox Jews or we hire >> One is actually a Chinese Orthodox Jew and we have some who are not Jewish who uh you help us with translation and and um scheduling. And we have a couple of Mashkim who actually who live in Israel. One lives in Israel, one lives in in Australia who actually read and speak Mandarin. >> Wow. >> And by the way, English is the pretty much the international language. So most people I mean there are some countries where it's very hard to find an English speaker. Let's say Korea very hard. I don't know why. I mean whereas in China, yeah, it it's pretty easy to find people speaking English. Hotels have changed over. Nobody uses keys anymore. Almost nobody uses keys anymore. Now, in order to get into your room, you have to use the electronic cards. So, are you allowed to go to a hotel knowing that in order to get into your room, you're going to have to use the electronic cards? Are you allowed to carry them? Are you allowed to ask the door man to open up your door for you? What's what do what do people do? >> I would not recommend making a plan relying that to go on Chabas. However, if you, you know, one of those situations where you're stuck, you know, your flight was canceled and you're in a place for shabas and so, you know, that is a real you can rely on you know over here it will be one button is the second is using the the electronic key. So, you know, if you're stuck, you're stuck. Um, but >> so you can you can ask the door man or someone at the front desk to open for >> you. But I I would not recommend that you know planning an occasion to you know to go somewhere like that. >> And what about in a lot of hotels they have automatic lights that go on in hallways or in in lobbies. If you check into hotel and it's Chabus and then uh you know you realize that in order to leave the hotel leave your room there are lights going to turn on or there's video cameras that are videoing you. What are you doing? So rebner deals with this question in the shi and here's m you know it's a ratio you know >> you don't want you don't really want >> you don't you don't want these things um you know if if you would want it you know then it will be a problem but you know if you're not really not interested in it now you're you're passing by a hall that had that you can get by and it's lit and and the light there'll be an additional light or something which is usually the case. So, I would not worry about it. >> What are some of the craziest questions or more stressful questions that you've gotten? >> I got a question from someone who wanted to know if he would go into space, outer space, when would he keep Chavez? >> So, you're getting 50 applications of new companies every week. What are the most challenging companies to certify? >> Companies that have both kosher and non-coosher lines are the hardest to certify because you you want to do it right and you want to give service and um you know you need to do a lot of explaining you know how you know they can have kosher or non-cosure or how they can't have non-coosher. Th those are the most challenging. I mean, we often we won't end up doing them or we'll have to do special kosher productions uh with like a special campaign, but those are the most challenging. Thank you very very much for coming. This has been fascinating and I'm sure we can [music] have you back for a few more. [laughter] >> Thank you. Pleasure to be here. That was an incredibly [music] illuminating conversation. A huge thank you to Rabbi Epstein for taking the time to join us today and giving us some serious [music] peace of mind for our next trip. And thank you for tuning in to Keeping Kosher. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe. We'll see you next month as we continue to uncover the stories behind the symbol.