Parshas Vayera Rabbi Weber - Why Were Sedomites So Evil? Would They Really Violate Lot’s Guests?

will be 9 every night, but um this is Rabbi Abrams who was giving it till now who will give them a yummy Tuesday nights. Just >> So you should have you should have named it now. >> 8:15. Right. >> [snorts] >> Um Okay. So here I prepared um some sources. I think this idea will intrigue you. Um and these are questions you know I I'm you've all all of us are learning Chumash for years and I think it's so silly to just say something that you've learned already. So you have the story this week's parashah of Light and Stein. You have the God of Sodom that they grew up on and the truth is they sound crazy. Now the truth is we're living post-Nazi Germany where you had cruelty that was unimaginable. But you know, why were they so why were they so terrible to guests? Like what is so terrible about a guest? So you'll tell me well the Nazis did terrible things to Jews. But I mean the Gemara says that they put them on a bed and they stretched them and if they were too short, they were too tall, they cut down their feet. I mean these are crazy things. And one person one woman gave Sodomite so they covered her in honey and bee stinger. So again, the Nazis if a non-Jew a Jew they would kill him. They would kill the whole family. They would burn the person with their house down. So it's not unimaginable. It's not unimaginable. But then within the context of the story, there's also the story that Lot had the temerity to have guests in his house. So what do the people in Sodom do? They say, "You know what? Send the guests out because people in Sodom didn't allow guests. The maid I saw where accustomed to Rashi, we will violate them." Right? This is a very crazy thing. I mean we will we we will you know, violate men to violate This is very And then what does Light say? "Oh, I'm not going to send the guests out. Let me send my daughters out. You'll violate them instead." It sounds crazy. Now crazy things happen for sure. I'm not saying you can't read it that way. What I'm going to show you a road a range of sources that give it a different reading and these sources are based on midrashim and they're really based on and really an understanding of what life is like in the ancient Near East, what life was like in in in Canaan a long time ago. So, firstly, a stone, we know where Sodom was. You know, you know, Israel is very careful. People love making fun and they they they do everything wrong. And Rashi lists that. I I don't I don't like doing that. I I don't do that with my children. Um you you can disagree with Rabbi Tuvia Shalit. There's a lot of good people, a lot of serious people there, the friar and so fri. They're very knowledgeable. When when Israelis named places, whether it's Bnei Brak or or or Sodom, they did a lot of research and they named it after the area where they think the place was. So, Sodom in Israel, it is an area that's called Sodom, is really where Sodom was and it's actually a wasteland. But Sodom was once a very rich land, right? But Sodom was overturned. Right near the Amalech. But but Sodom was turned upside down. It's right near the Amalech. Now, tell me, when in in right near Ein Gedi, right? Now, tell me, when Sodom was turned upside down, was the whole Judean Desert turned upside down? Sodom was a wasteland because it's a salt area. But it's right in the middle of the desert. It's the whole Judean Desert where nothing grows. So, it sounds like Sodom was an oasis, a rich land, a fertile land, a land where where fruits and vegetables grew in the middle of a desert. That's what it sounds like. And the truth What? No, so the pasuk tells you that Lot went there cuz it's coolamaska. Lot went there cuz it was a fertile land. That's why Lot went there. So, that that is the pasuk in parshas Lech Lecha. That Avraham Avinu tells Lot to part on my land, let's separate. And and Lot saw that Sodom is coolamaska. So, in the world of midrash, maska is it's a place of znus. Maskins znus usually go hand These are like they know you see that. Fertile. That's the simple reading and you always go with the simple reading. So, if you're the way we discuss this, Menachem, I don't know. Well, okay. If you if you're a very rich man who live in a live in a poor society. America is a very affluent country. But let's say you're very rich and you have a big mansion in middle of Nigeria. What do you have to do to protect yourself in a place where everyone's poor? You need guards, you need walls cuz they're going to attack you. And indeed in places like South Africa, people live with walls and alarms. >> Right. Right. Cuz because because when people are desperate and poor, they're going to attack you. So Sodom was a very rich area that was surrounded by a desert. Anyone drive through the desert near Jerusalem? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And what do you see? Do you What do you see? >> Bedouins. >> Bedouins. How do they live? >> Tents. >> Like animals, right? With tents, with like plastic. And that's today when it's better. So the You know, it's not a good way to live. If you can live in an oasis where you can pull dates of trees and you have water, why live in a desert? Wouldn't you want to live in the oasis? So what do the people in the oasis do to protect themselves? They don't let the people from the desert in. So there's a lot of discussion in the ancient in academic writing about how an an oasis in the ancient world, they would build walls and moats around to keep the people outside outside because cuz they were always afraid of invasions. And indeed Sodom had been invaded. What's the big story at the beginning of last week's parashah? >> Five against four. >> Five against four. It's actually It's very hard to know whether >> More rebellion. Rebellion to Kedarlaomer. [snorts] >> Right. But they were controlled, right? They were controlled by Kedarlaomer, but they were they were already controlled by outsiders and they're afraid of it. So [snorts] to understand why Sodom the people in Sodom were so bad to guests, could be they're crazy, but usually society isn't crazy. Usually there's a reason why, right? Hitler actually might have been crazy cuz I mean, he just hurt himself by hurting the Jews. But usually when when when there's abuses or discrimination, there's there's there's a reason, there's a motivation. Sodom might have been very hard on outsiders cuz they were afraid. Because if they would start letting outsiders in, they would have to share everything and they'd be overrun. It's the Gamara. The Gamara in Sanhedrin that brings out the crazy stories that you all grew up in, the stone battle and the honey and the this and the that, tells you what the motivation is. Go to eight Gamara in Sanhedrin. That's the you know, that's that's that God that talks about so who wants to read the God? Eight turn the bottom. And chase stone Lowness gale, they didn't develop right? Okay. Elvish will give up that they were like you know, so caught up in in protecting themselves. Such as we don't Elvish will I'm going to maximize we many of them was a land of great riches and it was overturned completely. So on and so forth and let's go to the end of this. Third line Two and a half lines and who wants to read two and a half lines and wants to read I read from Elena has trained on memory They're we we don't want guests that just going to take away our money. So the people so long crazy they were afraid for very good reason. They had they lived in a you know, you go think about if you visit in Getty in the middle of the desert is beautiful, right? And there's palm trees and there's water and you can live and if you're outside in Getty you'll die of thirst, you'll die of hunger. What are you going to do? So you going to you'd really much prefer to live in Ain Getty but the Ain Getty can accommodate all the better one in the desert. So what are the people that Ain Getty do? They protect themselves. Right? And what did they very very hard and visitors because they want the message to get out that if you come here we kill you. So the people in stone might have been rushing but they weren't crazy. Just because someone is bad, it doesn't mean he's insane. There's a motivation. And it's really the Gamara in Sanhedrin shoot the way. Now, how crazy did it get? They once once people start doing once vicious starts, it doesn't stop. So the the next Gamara same Gamara they have the stone battle, they have this, they have that. You have to know how to read these Gemaras. Again, I'm not such a literalist, you decide how you want to read it. Cuz Hitler and Maximillian, if someone was taken to a concentration camp and he said, "Oh, I don't want to be here." They didn't send them back, they killed them anyway, right? Look at the Gemara in Stein that talks about the Stein battle. Look at source 10, okay? Have a little bit of ice in there in a certain bed, have a magnum of Argan that they would guests would lay in them. Kimara Kazi like you goods um Maximillian, he was tall, they would cut off his feet. If he was short, they would stretch him. So so >> So why are you stretching them? >> So we can talk about that. I think we can discuss we can talk we but like why that example? We can talk about that. And then the Gemara tells you Eliezer who was so smart Abraham, he came to Stein cuz you know, I don't know that there's a record of Eliezer going to Stein, but again, I would read this as as just sort of a marshal. Eliezer was the traveler who traveled in the ancient world. Abraham has to go find the wife for Yitzhak. Who does he send? Eliezer. He goes out to war, who does he take with him? Eliezer. Eliezer was a traveler. So Eliezer goes to Stein and and they tell him, "Oh, go to the hotel Stein." And then he says, "I don't sleep in beds." And they believe him. So again, in in a concentration camp, they're not going to give a person that leeway, right? It's just not So I don't know what happened or didn't happen. I know that Stein is a very cruel place and I know their cruelty was they didn't have any imagination. Their thinking was we have an oasis. If we let outsiders come, they're going to take over and and that's it. Now, the truth is many oases actually gained a lot by having outsiders come because they became centers of trade. What's an example of a person with very limited thinking? >> Um >> Everything is the same. There's a bed, one size fits all. You're tall, we have to cut off your legs. You're short, we have to stretch you. So maybe it's the Gemara trying to give an example. When Stein was full of Rashad and they did terrible things. What? >> Same with the medical. >> I think so. >> How long would it take for this I mean when did it work out that this was a dangerous place to be. >> I think it may be a metaphor. So again, I'm not saying that it couldn't have happened. Certainly, you can read it through the small line. >> people pass out the word, don't go to this place. This is a dangerous place. >> Right, that's what they wanted. But that Gamorah might be saying Eliezer is the traveler. So we bring him as the star of the story. And S'dom is a place where there's no imagination. So the bed is exactly the way it is. But the point is, you see in the possuk, S'dom was terrible to guests. The Medrash were just developing the psukim. Psukim tell you very clearly the guests come, Lot takes them into his house. Lot is afraid for them. Lot knows going in that they're terrible to guests. Cuz what does he tell them? He um come to my house and he tells them "Mishkavtem baboker, get out of here early in the morning." He wants them out because he knows it's dangerous. And and it it's you know, it he it's clear they surround the house the S'dom. And and they're ready to kill them. So the people in S'dom really killed guests. They were terrible terrible to guests. So these Gamorahs are not just speculating. They're base >> tribal, or was it really >> I don't know. I don't know. Uh usually it's tribal. So they they killed guests cuz they were afraid of them. That this story happened exactly this way, could very well be. But then you have to say there was a Mesorah passed down from who? Who passed down this Mesorah? Lot? I mean, who was there at the past? Maybe people knew about it. Maybe they knew about it. Okay, maybe they And he Or maybe it was just visitors. I mean, it was just passed down the Mesorah. Maybe. Or maybe it's just a moshol. Eliezer is the traveler, the consummate traveler. S'dom is a place where people can't think outside the box. So the S'dom battle. And even in metaphor in Yiddish, right? When they say S'dom battle, what is S'dom battle in Yiddish meaning in Yiddish? >> S'dom battle? >> It S'dom battle, you didn't grow up in a Yiddish >> Yeah. >> S'dom battle means a Yeshiva where every kid has to be the same. And if you're a little too smart or you're not smart enough or you're a little too hyperactive. Every does has to be everyone has to be exactly the same. There's no room for a difference. That's the That's the the Yiddish term for S'dom battle. Now maybe that's S'dom in Yiddish but that's what they That's the term that they use. Where there's no room for individual You does not the usual grow up in S'dom battle? >> I've never >> heard of this song. >> Really? >> Sounds like the Russian how they used to be. >> Yeah, everyone has to there's no room for individuality. So, but I'm just saying the people in Sodom weren't crazy. They were a show, but they weren't crazy. That's what the Gamoran said in the Torah tells us. And the truth is um so they were and when the Navi talks about Stein's Khatam, what does it talk about? So the person can you ask you ask when he criticizes Claudius role when we're approaching the Corbin, he compares us to Stein. That's an awful comparison, but that's where we were. And what is Stein? The the issue is lack of generosity. Look at six. He needs the higher of Stein and Sef. Um Stein is like you, she's your sister. Okay, go on. Um go on means you're so proud. Um Sivat Lechem, you're so um satisfied. Shalva Tashket, there's Shalva there's peace. There's um there's um there's um satisfaction everything you need. And then the only the Evian Yezika. The issue with Stein is is that they weren't generous, they didn't share their wealth. Now it's very strange in your mind when you think about Stein's Khatam, what do you think of? >> Greed. No. >> What do you think of the prime Khatam? >> Selfishness. >> In English. >> Selfishness. >> Selfishness? So in English there's the word Stein and then there's the word when it comes to marriage, Sodomy. It's not such a nice word, but Sodomy means when when a man assaults another man, right? >> Really anything in the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah >> There is. It's true, but by the time it made it >> the Drashim, the Navi, it's all about selfishness. >> Right. It's the Navi, it's all about selfishness. The Gamora tells you it started with selfishness and not crazy selfishness, self-preservation. But by the time it makes its way tap stop your typical person the street a guy because non-Jews are also exposed to to Navi, they'll assume that Stein's issue was perversions of the flesh, um sins involving physical um um improprieties. I I don't want to you know use certain words and sodomy is not the word you use for someone who wasn't generous. Sodomy is the word you use for someone who >> The name of the town of Sodom like welcome to Sodom. >> Sodom, sodomy. Where does sodomy come from? It comes from Sodom. >> That was actually the name of the town. >> Yeah, where does it come from? Why not? Why is that the term? >> Cuz that was the name of the city. >> Yeah, so the name of Sodom the Torah calls it Sodom, right? And sodomy comes from Sodom, right? I mean just I I think it's obvious that that sodomy comes from Sodom. So you stop stop your typical Joe on the street in our community, outside our community, they'll assume that the prime hit was physical improprieties. Why did they make that assumption? Because within the story of Sodom, the story that stands out, the story that seems so crazy to us is that the people surround the house. They're angry at the guests. We explained why they're afraid the guests are going to you know pull their money. Um it's such a sensible fear. >> at the guests or they were angry at both of them? >> Both. Both. They wanted to hurt the guests and they wanted Lot to defend the guests. They wanted to hurt them. Lot and Lot Lot Lot Lot Lot Lot will hurt you more than them. They're they're enraged cuz they're very afraid. You know when people are afraid their parnassah's going to be taken away and they won't be able to feed their children, they they they they become desperate. They do bad things. And what do they do? Send the men out. V'nay Lot aishim. And everyone goes up with Rashi and what does Rashi say? What does V'nay Lot aishim mean? >> [snorts] >> We will violate them. They'll they'll they'll they'll they'll force themselves on the men. They'll assault the men, right? This is what we know. But how did we jump from one thing to another thing? Sodom is all about um about selfishness, about about hurting guests cuz you don't want them to come. So why do they do this? So tell me in war, the beautiful thing about everyone is different. If someone doesn't go online, I understand the wisdom in it. You know, barriers it makes sense also. I do. I I live this way. We have we have we have protection of course, but um so sometimes in war when you want to demean an enemy, what you do is you violate them. >> To demean? >> Demean, you want to make them small. You want to make them humble. You want to make them take away their their their their their strength so they they don't have the courage to fight back. You humiliate them. You humiliate the women by violating them and you humiliate men by violating them. They attack them because maybe they were perverted. That was part of it. But the real motivation is is that they wanted to scare guests away. You killed some guests and you violated some guests. That's what they were trying to accomplish. Look at 18. Okay. Um violence. I don't want to you know certain words I won't you know annunciate one word. Violence against men in armed conflict. So there's an article, you know, just on this that sometimes when there's war an invading army will violate the male soldiers that are captured. Not just the women, the male soldiers that are captured. >> Did you hear about that in any You hear about sexual violence towards women but not towards men. >> Against men. >> There was there was plenty of it. >> I know. >> Towards men there was. >> I know. >> Right. Against men in lots of >> everything. >> Violence against men in armed conflict. That's the article. Because you want to demean. So it is this perversion there also that's part of the motivation, but it's also about demeaning. So and the Rishonim say this clearly. They're going to they're going to violate them. But why? Like what's motivating them to do this? So look at the Rishonim. Look at the pasuk. >> [clears throat] >> And and the the Rishon I want to start with is the Ramban. I think we explained that. Of all the Rishonim, the Rishon who was most heimish, traditional, right wing. I don't even know what term to use. No one was heimish in in the 13th century. But the the Ramban was very very um taking things the way very It's like shivim as I say this. Right? The Ramban The Ramban is the closest you would have to to to to what you would have in a Hasidic Yeshiva Yeshiva Yeshiva. The Ramban is the closest. We didn't know what Rashi is cuz Rashi quotes the Medrash. All the other Rishonim are very different. Are much more modern in a way or much the Ramban is is pretty the reason why >> Sometimes it doesn't make any sense. >> So he takes things but even the Ramban he says why are they doing this? Like why are they violating the men? It's such a and it's something that an ancient today you know everything goes right? The world is but in the ancient world people couldn't do this they would be punished if they did this right? They would be killed but here within the context of this violence it's allowed. So look at what the Ramban says 11 Ramban perfect time okay come and look so he says exactly this here look at 11 come and they rejected the regular meaning they wanted to stop visitors from coming They were afraid of too many visitors cuz they would eat up the resources. They may have my say it's stuck and want to get stuck up a light. Light was different light was more generous. Um and he wanted to give to them he had a message from our Rabbenu. And then the Gemara goes and tells you about custom majors that they So the Ramban quotes the Ezekiel the Ramban assuming assumingly goes with Rashi cuz the Ramban is always very simple to come and show me that they said we want to violate them but why did they want to do something so crazy? So could be they were perverted also that was part of it. But but you weren't allowed to do this in the ancient world if if a person was drawn to this he would be punished. How could they do this publicly? This was happening publicly as part of a communal How could they do this publicly? The Ramban says that the objective was to to mean people because they wanted to scare visitors away. So the Ramban is perfectly is in sync with everything we said. The Gemara tells you that what motivated them was they were afraid they they people would take advantage. Um Ezekiel says the issue is is that they want to get an EM. The truth is they they have a history of being controlled by others and they were afraid it's just last week's parashah. Nothing in the Torah is there per chance. Last week's parsha makes a point of telling us about the story of the four against five and about the king of stone being captured and stone being captured and and maybe it's about Abram and Lot, that's part of it, but maybe it's also about feeding into this parsha. They give you some perspective on stone. People stone was scared for good reason. Now you'll say there was an empire against this, but we have already one case of them being afraid. >> [snorts] >> So they they did everything to discourage guest including assaulting them. Now you'll tell me assaulting guests will go ahead and and prevent them from coming. Yes, it's such a shalom aleichem yoshua ever. >> Not the visitor. >> We're friends, okay? Um >> [snorts] >> So um so it all ties together. It's not just something out of the blue. Now I didn't bring it down. Rashi says there was perversion here also. You know, there's many factors. Like why does someone choose a certain profession? Why does someone marry a certain woman? Why do Why do people make the choices they make? There are a lot of factors, right? So on the one hand the people in stone were perverted. On the other hand they wanted to prevent outsiders from coming. So this was something that did both. Outsiders came, they killed them. Outsiders came, they didn't give them stock. Outsiders came, they had this crazy stone hotel. Exactly the way the possuk is. It's a mashal, but they were terrible to outsiders. And at the possuk is very explicit about it that they didn't let guests come because they were afraid guests would take their money. It's the possuk in Yechezkel, it's the gemara, but it's the psukim themselves. And it's Lot telling them go ahead and go in a secure this room in my house and get up early tomorrow morning. It's the psukim that Lot is afraid for them and afraid for himself. They were very and this is the way it was in the ancient world. In oasis they didn't let guests come. They would punish them because they were afraid of being overrun. It's all perfect. One of the abuses might have been that they would actually violate guests. It's really not hard to see. It's so sensible. It's something that means another person and it would prevent other people from coming. People don't want to be violated. >> If they don't want to guest, why do they have to let them in? You would think they would just kick them out. >> So no stranger can come in. Yeah, so it's like a >> terrible terrible inn. Where is an inn where they yeah, where the whole point was to kill. Yeah, and again I'm naturally ex- happened exactly that way. Sort of a muscle. Okay, but I want to go a little bit further and take this further. But is that the only way to read Neda Isam? Neda Isam means will violate them. What does Ladas normally mean? >> Just to go and investigate and find out who they are. >> And why do they want to find out who they are? So they want what they want to do is they want to interrogate them to see if they're spies if they're going to take over. That's the simplest reading. So a lot of them say why are you reading the Neda Isam mean that you will violate them? That's not what it means. That's not what Ladas means to know. What? So Rashi quotes the Medrish. We're going to go with you. Yada. The only case is A good point. I actually highlighted this here in where I highlighted. I highlighted here in 10. It's true. Generally when we talk about a physical relationship between a man and a woman, if a man is forcing himself on the woman, the term is inui. Inui again language is so special. What does ona mean in Hebrew? A time. What else does ona mean like I'm nose? To answer. Right? Ona means what does ani mean? It means poor person. Right? How do they all connect? It means you're under the control of somebody else. When you answer, you're responding. When you're poor, you're under control. A woman in her relationship with a man, whether it's good or bad, right? Shair susa inasa. Inasa doesn't mean a man should violate his wife. It means he should have a relationship with his wife. But from a woman's perspective, a man is the dominant one in the relationship. Right? The relationship is is is more of the man who initiates than the Alisha shukasik Now we can to place itself out between husband and wife. So don't take this literally and don't you know this is this discuss this with the rabbi before you take that the wrong way. But a man is is the dominant force in the relationship physically. That's the way it works. So on a means when someone is weaker, but it doesn't mean she's being violated. She works in a NASA, but it means a woman in a relationship with a man where he's the dominant one. Ones is when he forces himself on her. That's that's violation. Um Yada, the only time Yada is used is when it's a positive, I would even use the term romantic relationship where people know one another and there's an intimacy where there's connection. Adam Yada have a ishto because he knows her, but that's a very positive relationship. Yada is never used for rape. It It doesn't mean that at all. So it's It's really not the right term if they're forcing themselves on the men, Yada is really [clears throat] not the right term. So we'll go here soon why why why the midrashim go here, but I want to take you to what many of the show them go the harsh or and the tour and the radak maybe most of the show them. They said what Brett said, they weren't going to rape the men. They weren't going to violate them. They were going to interrogate them. No outsiders were allowed to come to stone because once an outsider came he found the entrance in the secret door, the underground tunnel, the way to get in. People were afraid of that. Outsiders were never ever allowed into stone. And if outsiders came in, we want to interrogate them. Who knows? Maybe they're going to control us again. Just not long ago we had to rebel against all of these ancient kings from the Near East. We're going to stop it. Yada means to interrogate them. We want to interrogate them. And that probably is the simple meaning of the word Yada. Really it's hard to say it means rape. It doesn't It never means that. Except one case and we'll explain that one case. But let's Let's little bit further, right? So here, 16 Thomas Yachas Lamare when it's a relationship where there's agreement somebody you know, a deep knowledge of them he knew his wife. Okay, but it never applies to rape. So what does it mean here? So that's where we shine and say that what the people still will say we want to interrogate them. Look at the latest so that's his reason. But then he counters that he says, are you sure it means interrogate? Well, then what's the follow up to the story? What what happens? The people from Stone will surround the house. The guests are inside with Lot and the the people in town say the natives and what does Lot say? What's his response? Which sounds so crazy to us. >> Offer his daughters. >> Let [snorts] me send my daughters out. The majority will go in two directions. Some vilify him. What are you doing sacrificing your daughters? Some say he's a sadist. Look, he's ready to give over his daughters to protect his guests. They were >> You said that you wanted to send his daughters out because they knew his daughters and they wouldn't do anything to them. >> Exactly what the same say. So the same take a number of lines. But the starts with a simple approach. He says sounds like he's sending out his daughters to be violated. Maybe he's a terrible father. But if that's what he's doing, okay, it says he may have two daughters or shall I add to us each. It really sounds like he's sending them out to be violated. They all do us each. They never had relations which makes them more valuable. It really So therefore the says even though my inclination is not to go with Rashi's approach, I'm going to go with you because how do you explain the end of the puzzle? The fact that Lot says what he says really indicates that that the initial request from the people was to violate these people. Now you have to doesn't mean this. We will soon, you know, explain how perhaps it can. But other Rishonim actually offer sensible reasons. The Torah neither of the neither was Shimon. And he answered, he doesn't explain. But But let's develop what Alshich said. You know, we're used to reading in a certain way cuz we're actually presented a certain way. And the way we used to reading it is is that the people say, "Send out the guests and we'll violate them." And Lot says, "Violate my daughters." It's a little It's crazy. No, he's a father, right? So, it's a terrible situation, but it's Is Is this what it is? So, among the Rishonim, there's another approach, and it's what Alshich said. I want to share a very similar conversation where it's a horrible situation, terrible things can happen, and a father says, "You know what? Then let my kids suffer. Let my kids be killed." Who said something like this? Someone we respect a lot. It's a terrible situation, and the person says, "You know what? Kill my two sons." You know who it is? Think about it. You know who it is? Reuben. There's hunger. Jacob is afraid to send Benjamin down. I mean, he sent his boys down once. Um Shimon was taken captive. The king is not going to release Shimon and give food until Benjamin comes down. Jacob is afraid for good reason, right? Terrible things had happened once. He was afraid. And Reuben says, "We have to go down or we're all going to starve. And you know what? If If I don't bring If I don't bring him back, kill my two sons." Now, Nothing. How does it help the situation? Would Reuben really want his sons to be killed? And [clears throat] would Jacob really kill his grandchildren? So, Let them die. Okay, let But still, let them die. Or Thomas, you have a very nice reading, Chaim. The Thomas, let them die from starvation, right? Interesting. But this That's a very You you seen that developed, but it's a very interesting reading. But I think the simple reading is kill my two miss. Um kill my two sons. That's simple reading. Does he really mean it or was just saying I I know you're not going to kill my two sons, but you can kill them, right? It's a people just say this. No one should ever tell somebody I'm going to kill you. But there are some people who talk this way. Oh, I'm going to kill you. So I'm going to kill you, right? Terrible. They're starving to death. You know, it's so easy to sit here when you're comfortable and the question is is the child too spicy or not spicy enough or is it the right brand of beer or is it cold enough? But people are starving to death, right? Light is in a situation where people are going to die and it's his responsibility and he's a good person. He feels a right. So Ruben says kill my two sons because we're all going to die anyway. Light says I'm send I'm sending my daughters out. Okay? He's sending them out as a mashkin. What he really means to say and look who says this here. Think the Redak says this. Um the Redak is um 19. Um no no no no no. Um so no I'm sorry 22 the tour 22. He may not wish to even eyes. The eternal him they rub and kick him him. He's not sending his daughters [clears throat] out to be violated, right? And think about it. Like who's standing outside the house? The people who stole but who else is standing outside this house? His two sons-in-law. Right? His two sons-in-law are standing outside the house who are low banosa. It sounds like those two men outside are the ones who are engaged to the daughters who are inside. Sounds like engaged married low aruso. Rashi says aruso. Right. Well, it could be aruso. Aruso. So Rashi says aruso. Right? So according right you know, we'll translate aruso as engaged. But it sounds like So the men outside who are engaged to these girls, the girls will be sent outside to be violated by the whole community. >> No, just by them. And and it's the and it's the wives. >> And they would allow it? They would allow the whole community to violate their wives? It just it it it's all so strange. So, what the Torah says is very simple. He doesn't want Lot is in a desperate situation. He's doing the most sensible thing. If the people are sent out, they're going to be interrogated. But what is interrogation in Nazi Germany like? Interrogations they would They're not nice. They beat you. They electrocute you. They They cut you up. They They They They put you on a rack. They do all these terrible things, right? It's a monstrous place. These people are going to be interrogated, killed, and tortured terribly before they die. >> [snorts] >> So, he says, "I know they're good people. They were in my house. They happened to come here by mistake. I'm sending my two daughters out as an Aravine. I'm not going to send them away. I'm not going to let them hurt the town. I'm going to let you find out. I just don't want you to torture them to death. But not I'm sending them out to be raped. I'm sending them out simply as a pledge, as a surety. Very much like the language Reuben uses. It's almost the same. The Heim's interesting is I reading is such an interesting reading, but I I think the simple reading we have is that Reuben is saying, "Kill my two sons." Jacob is not going to kill his two grandchildren. Lot is saying, "Here are my I'm two my two daughters. Do Do Do to them K'tav Benei Yisrael." But it doesn't mean violate. It means, "I know that you're people of the same town. I know that we go to the country clubs together we play golf together. I know that we you know we do carpool together. >> Who was he talking to? His son? His son? >> He's talking back to the whole community, to the group. >> Not just to the two men that were there. >> Yeah, not just to And among the people are his two sons-in-law. So, it it's And in a terrible situation, maybe that maybe he did the right thing. Maybe he did the best thing, you know. Again, we sit here in this wonderful world where you sit and you drink tea and you learn and it's But it wasn't this way. It was a horrible world where people died. So, according to the Torah, we're not dealing with righteous In all of the bonus, that's not Hamlisch Ram Kikanim hey. >> Looking. >> Um >> Who knows what that should [clears throat] be. >> No, Kikanim hey. >> Their own Kikanim. >> That the people are truthful. Kikanim means truthful truthful. So, and that's and that's that's such a sensible reading. The truth is in a way, you know, we've got it it society has been learning for so many hundreds of years that we've piled on the madrasah and they become the story. And madrasah that are meant to make the story exciting or or intriguing that have become facts and I think sometimes it's actually a little bit of a problem. Everyone reads a story and the only approach I think people have is that the people of Sodom were going to rape the men and Lot said violate my daughters and that's and for sure you see that, but that's not the only approach. And shoot at Kima Shima the simple reading of the Sukum is probably with the Torah. Naida Islam is not violate. What? Yeah, Naida Islam means just interrogate them. And another slightly different reading is is that if you want to know the truth about a situation, who do you talk to? You talk to a child. Right from the mouth of a child, you hear the truth, right? So, maybe what Lot is saying is you think they're spies, they're coming to my house and they're trying to figure out things. They're sitting in my house for many hours. I'll send my two daughters out, they're little girls. Ask them what the conversation was about. I don't know. Um they were a ruse it sounds that like him and Asaph. What? Yeah. Yeah. Now again, so this Oh, so they're 12, right? It's all very clear. They were 12 and not adults. You should know in the ancient world maybe it was the best thing. Everything was very simple, right? Girls got engaged at 12 because that's when the body began developing one way and they married a half year later. That's when the body began developing another way. It was 12 and 12 and a half. It's all very simple. It was all based on on the physical development. And men got married at 13 because that's when their body developed. And maybe it you should make people more normal because as soon as the body began developing, it began functioning the way it's meant to function. You wonder if if part of what's going on in people's minds now is that there's so much time to think about what to be that that, you know, it just doesn't stop. Um but it was very clear if they were a rishus, they were 12. But that's the more of a bash of a girl 12 and a half and she's not married. Oh, you say they that's the way the world works cuz people work with the physical reality. Um [snorts] >> It's not that you would get it at 25. >> Well, you would get it at any time but the average age in ancient Rome was actually 25. That's the but it could be 80, right? Childbirth, you just people died all the time. So, um so so that would be another approach. Either interrogate them cuz they they were still pretty young girls not so sophisticated or they'll be they'll be a pledge, they'll be a mashkin. But either which way, one reading, I'm not saying it's the only reading, is that he wasn't sending out his daughters to be violated. He was trying to protect his guest and in a way it made some sense. And the truth is ladah, that's what it means. It's very hard to say that ladah means to violate cuz it's not what it means. The Torah Hebrew has words. Ladah means a positive relationship. So, why do all the midrashim make this, you know, why did Rashi go here and the Ramban and you know, why do we go here? Why do we read it the story pshuta k'mashma'i? So, it could be, you know, we're prejudiced, right? There's the latest story of Lot with his daughters in the cave, that awful story about him having relationships with his daughters, two daughters. So, we sort of see it that way. You know, Lot emerges as as sort of a pervert, right? That's how we see him and you know, once we see that story later, we go back and read the whole story that way. That could be. But there's another story in in Parshas Shoftim that is really a deja vu that's almost the same exact story. It's the most terrible story imaginable, the story of Pilegesh b'Giv'ah, which is it's an it's an awful story. It's a man and a woman who are married. It wasn't such a good marriage, it seems she left him and he comes back to she goes to a father and he comes back to convince her to come home and she agrees. It sounds like a father is reluctant to send her. Sounds like the father realizes he's not such a good man. And then they're traveling home. They travel through a town, and it's exactly like Stone. There's an old man in the town who seems to be a good person, a moral person. He says, "Oh, come to my house right away. Don't be in the street. Don't sleep in the street." He just like below keeper of no no no come to my house and then you'll leave early in the morning. And then as soon as this man comes to the house, the people from town surround the house. And they say the same exact thing, "Send the man out so we will know him." Right? Let's see the story. Okay? You know, in in many issues um they really there's very little Navin with the children and there's something to it. The stories in the Navin are one is more horrific than the next. They're really horrible stories um of really bad things and it's very hard What? I don't know if there's so much right to teach. There are a lot of bad people doing very bad things. >> [snorts] >> So, this is very hard, you know, this is something maybe to talk about privately. Could be people there were a lot of not good people. Could be there were a lot of not good people. I mean, how could it be that such a horrible situation, right? >> [gasps] >> Yeah, there were there were some people there were good people, but there were a lot of bad people. Maybe yeah, it's very very hard, but I'm just saying the sense in that in because it just you step into a story like this and it's very hard How do you make it nice? And it's not just the Yachad, it's the Shivat. How yeah. >> I mean, like even if you hear such a story like you play the act. >> Right, you know you're by by by the biggest heights, you know, to hear such stories. Um and with the cruel this man's cruelty I'm Read about how horrible he is. Um so um >> [snorts] >> Um so look at this story. Um so this man is convincing the guest to come to his house. Shalom I'll provide everything. I don't sleep in the street. Like he's begging him. Why not? Cuz he knows what's going to happen. Um he goes to the house and he feeds him. And he makes him sleep in the beginning just like life like Stein. The terrible people in the sound sound must have no balance as I can hold send the men out the name that anyone will know him. Now the Redact here says that also means just to interrogate. Now interrogations and would have been horrible also they would have beaten him and killed him and and and tortured him was they were bad people but it wasn't interrogate cuz they were afraid of guests maybe it was a rich area. Don't do this he here it's explicit right. He says I have my daughter and this man is I'm going to send them out and you can violate him. So this man himself it's it's like a lot of story but the man is more direct. You can't read that the man here is volunteering in in means have relations right? That's it's explicit. >> way. >> Right I mean it's negative it's a woman is being sent out to a mob it's it's it's it's yeah it's going to be terrible and and the men didn't listen they wanted to take the man out of the house and interrogate him. So what is the the guest do the man with his leg edge the house with the grabs on to his his wife he sends her out they assaulted her all night one man after another it's explicit in the past at the bunker. And and they they set her free after violating her when it was morning but towards morning the woman who survived this comes but people she falls on the doorstep coming to the house. Meanwhile her husband had gone to sleep he had sent his wife his out to be violated. Yeah and listen to how he talks but opens the doors he's ready to go he sees the woman on floor near the house. Clearly she had been violated raped. I feel that she's unconscious. We are going to get up and let's go. Let's travel home. >> As if nothing happened. >> Right. So clearly you're dealing with a monstrous person and awful person. I don't even know how you can Right? But this and then he takes her via he takes her home and then of course he cuts the body into pieces. He sends the different parts. Colesterol and this ends up being a whole civil war against Benjamin. Now could be she's dead already. Could be I'm not even sure. What? >> What does it say he killed her? >> Let's let's read it that he let's read it that she was dead. But it doesn't say that she was dead. But let's read it that she was dead that he didn't kill. Clearly it's a monstrous story. It's it's hard to see how How can a person go to sleep when his wife is being assaulted outside? Right. But what about his awful So Benjamin did bad things too. But what about him? The awful is his more than anyone's. Right? He sent his wife out to be gang raped. He goes to sleep and he falls asleep and he wakes up in the morning and she's sprawled on the door post. I'm sure bloody and and and torn in horrible ways and he says get up and let's go. So clearly this is a monster. And then [snorts] he you know he's angry at Benjamin and and there's a lot to be angry at but really the biggest rush in the story may very well be him. You're dealing with really bad people doing really bad things. Now here it's the same story. The first part is that some interrogating. The second part is the master of the house and the man visiting offering the woman to us. It sounds crazy but maybe in a world where women had no rights and they were totally abused and it was normal to beat your wife. It's the way people lived. Yeah, maybe such things happen. Not by everybody, but men were usually stronger and terrible terrible things would happen to women. And maybe this is the story of something awful happening to women and and maybe good people didn't do this. This is clearly a rash mirusha, but some of these people did. And the owner of the house maybe a better one type of hospitality. I think I have obligations to my guest. I'll send my daughter out. It sounds crazy. But that's the story. It's very easy to jump from this story and transpose, take this story and bring it back to the stone story. In this story, clearly eventually the women are going to be assaulted. That's what happens. Well, once the women are going to be assaulted, read it as the man being assaulted, too. Leda means let's interrogate them, at least according to the redak. But these people descended to rape. Once we're reading the story about being a story about women being violated that way, then let's carry it back to a story about men being violated that way. Now, if they're not, by by the man it's yada, by the woman it's eenu. It's clearly not. I think the simple reading of the story is they wanted to interrogate the man, which is how the redak reads it, and then they offered the woman to have them assaulted to sort of to to appease them. But once it's a story about assault and physical assault, the story takes on a life of its own and the whole story became a story of assault of the women and the men. And once and once once this story is this way, we go back and we read the load story this way. The before she create it's it's not about fact. It's about connecting stories and seeing how people are and seeing the worst in people, the best in people. You see this is the story about Pelagius begin. They become assaulted in the end. That's what it becomes. Once it becomes the assault of the woman at the end, maybe it's also assault of the men at the beginning. Maybe yes, maybe no. Right? Well, once we read that story this way, at least in the world of Drush, let's go back and read the story of of Stone this way. Well, why do you want to read the story of Stone this way? So, this goes back to an idea that you see in Rashi all the time. Sometimes, you know, you when you teach, you want to teach fact. Sometimes you want to teach inspiration. Rashi always, I think, if takes the good and makes them so exceptionally good, and the bad are so very bad. Because Rashi is not trying to tell you what actually happened. So, Rashi quotes the Khazars about Bilam having relations with his donkey. There's no indication of the possuk of Bilam having relations with the donkey. Possuk Possuk tells you, "I'm not here saying I'm your donkey." Khazars say had relations. Do we know that for a fact? Maybe. But maybe it's sort of painting a picture. If someone is bad, there's no limit how bad you can become. And the truth is you don't know, right? Avera goreret avera. Once you do one avera, so a painting a picture. So, we're taking back Stone is clearly a place that was evil, horrible things to guest. Lot's daughters picked up a certain attitude from being in Stone, but they had relations with their father. Well, clearly there was perversion there. Like, why are they thinking this way? Like, what were Lot's daughters really thinking? There were other men in the world. They knew there were other men because they would There was one city that they could have gone to, but they didn't go there. Then why did they want to have relations with their father? Because they wanted children from among their elite family. They didn't want relations with other men. How could you do that? Well, in a perverted world, you do do that. In Egypt, you have marriages within the family. That's what the Sforno says. So, once we have the story of Lot and Stone being a terrible place, we have a story of Pilegesh baGiv'ah, which is a parallel story, where it shifted into assault. So, let's make the first part of that story assault, and let's make this story of also. Is that actually what happened? No one knows what happened. How could you know what happened? You're not there. But it's a story about how bad you can become. And and and being driven to assault in a man this way is beyond bad. [clears throat] Okay, so that's the topic for sure. Okay, so we're switching to next week 8:15. We're starting We're starting the