Daf Hashavua - Nedarim 84b

Recording in progress. >> Okay, welcome back and welcome everyone. We're continuing in maseches Nedarim. Traveling right along the top pay dollar on my base. But we begin today the two dots [clears throat] on pay dollar on my olive. You call her lay honest black and check up here. If a woman says I answer to be Nana from Brioche. So the Halacha is You call her lay honest black and check up here. She can be Nana from black and check up here. But the Brycer, no excuse me, the Mishnah does not say she could be Nana from my Saroni. But like a Tony over my Saroni. It doesn't say she could be Nana from my Saroni. Tanya the Brycer. And yet it's taught in the Brycer over my Saroni. She could be Nana from my Saroni. So how do you explain this contradiction between the Mishnah and the Brycer whether she could be Nana [clears throat] from my Saroni or not. I'm Ravi Yosef from Ravi Yosef said like Asha Har Ravi Eliezer Harabanan. The Brycer is of the opinion of Ravi Eliezer. According to Ravi Eliezer, she could be Nana from my Saroni. The Mishnah is going according to the Rabbinin that she could only be Nana from black and check up here and she can't be Nana from my Saroni. So how does this how is this explained? The T'nan, we learned in the Mishnah. Ravi Eliezer I'm here ain Adam Kodesh Shem Am I Saroni Shel Demai. Person doesn't need to to say the name of my Saroni of Demai. Demai is the grain of an Am Ha'aretz. An Am Ha'aretz is assumed to have taken off Terumah because Terumah is very serious. So we could assume that that the Am Ha'aretz off trumice. However, we cannot assume that they took off miser. They >> [clears throat and cough] >> um Truma we assume Amarats took off. However, a miser rishon has to be separated, but miser rishon normally has to be given to the levy. Miser rishon of demay you separate and you could keep it. The reason why you need to separate it is because you need to declare 10% of the miser trumas miser and give it to a cohen and you could keep the rest of it as miser. If you have an absolute key of to give miser, so you give it to the levy because the levy owns it. When there's a safek, then you say to the levy "How much do you make a vero?" All of Mariah, but you still need to take off trumas miser from what is designated to the levy and give it to the cohen cuz that if somebody eats it is misa. Now, what about in year one and year two? You also have to take off miser. >> [clears throat] >> Uh miser sheni because miser sheni you have to eat it in Yerushalayim. Even by demay, you have to eat it in Yerushalayim. What about in year three and six where uh it's miser ani? So now there's a shyla, do you have to be mafresh miser ani from demay? That's the shyla. Welcome, Jeremy. Good to see Good to have you. Welcome. So that's the question. Do you have to separate miser ani of demay? So Rebbe Elazar says in adam saf likri shem al miser ani shel demay. Rebbe Elazar says you don't even have to say the name of maaser ani of the maaser maimem. The chachamim say koireh shem. You do declare it bein sach lahafrash, but you don't have to separate it. >> [clears throat] >> What would the machlokes be whether you have to orally designate the maaser ani or not? Lichora, it would seem that what they argue on is is the produce prohibited to eat if you don't declare maaser ani. Maybe you won't have to give it because since it's a safek, we'll say hamaitz meichaber avarya. But do we say that produce that you didn't separate maaser ani from, do we say that the produce is tevel? That's the question. Do you say produce that you didn't separate maaser ani from, do you say it's tevel? The chachamim say you that you designate it, you call its name, but you don't have to separate it. >> [clears throat] >> Mailav, is this not meaning, should we say the machlokes is not as follows? Lemanda amar safek oiy tevel, the chachamim will say that if you have a question whether to take maaser ani, and by the way, also if you definitely need to take off maaser ani, not doing it makes the produce tevel until you are mafresh it. So, according to the opinion of the chachamim, they say that if you're mesupak whether you need to take off maaser ani or you definitely need to take off maaser ani, the produce is tevel. And therefore they hold kasavar is lei tevel sano. They hold the owner has a certain right over here. The right the owner has is that he owns the toiver, the benefit of pleasure, meaning the the benefit that you have to be grateful to me for me giving you the maaser ani. The kivan de is lay toiver hana'ah. So, if the owner has the monetary ownership of the benefit of you having to have gratitude to me. L'ma'an ani, if somebody made an neder, they're not going to get benefit from people, you can't take my maaser ani. Because even though technically I'm obligated to give maaser ani, even though technically speaking, I'm [clears throat] obligated to give maaser ani, nevertheless, there's a certain ownership that I have that by me choosing to give it to you, you need to be grateful to me. So, even though it's an obligatory gift, but you have to be grateful to me. And if you have to be grateful to me, you could even have somebody give me a couple of bucks on the side for me to choose to give it to you. Because there's a certain ownership I have on maaser ani. Namely, the recipient has to be grateful to the benefactor. So, the Gemara is now saying that if the produce is considered tevel, if I'm not mafresh maaser ani, then >> [clears throat] >> that somehow is contingent on the fact that the owner has a certain monetary ownership of maaser ani, namely, they have the benefit that the recipient has to be grateful to them. And since there is an ownership of gratitude, l'ma'an ani, if somebody made an neder, they're not to get hana'ah by taking the maaser ani. That's the opinion of the chachamim, and that's So the chachamim in the Mishnah, they say that you're not allowed to take maaser ani cuz you're benefiting. Well, Amanda Amar in Karashin, but according to Rabbi Elazar that you don't have to designate the name, why? Why would you not have to designate the name of the maaser ani? Because if you because not giving maaser ani is does not render the fruit tevel. Kasava Sefekoy Enai Tevel. He holds that if you're masupik, then the produce is not in a state of tevel. And also, even if you definitely have to give maaser ani, it doesn't cause the produce to be tevel. B'chol she'as Sefekoy Enai Tevel, anytime where there's a doubt, so now it's not considered the the produce will not be tevel. Less lay toyvas hana. The owner the giver does not have the the monetary ownership that you have to be grateful to them. V'shoyri lay less hanuey. And therefore, if you made a neder, you're allowed to get benefit by taking the maaser ani. So according to Rabbi Elazar, if you made a neder, you're not going to get hana'ah from people. You can't take maaser ani from them. So the Mishnah who says I'm sorry, according to Rabbi Elazar, you're allowed to get the benefit of maaser ani. So the Mishnah that says you can't take maaser ani when you make a neder, they hold like the chachamim. The chachamim hold that toyvas hana'ah is is lay toyvas hana'ah. It's an ownership. It's a monetary right. However, the braisa that who's that says [clears throat] if you made a neder, you're allowed to take maaser ani follows the opinion of Rabbi Elazar. Let's see this in the Ran. The Ran says on daf pay dalet amud beis, the chachamim oimrim, koyri shem, you do call a name. The invadai loy hefreshei have a terrible because if you definitely did not separate it's terrible. They are not cream and Mesa and the coin to the if you eat fruit where the mice are only was not taken off your five Mesa after peace and the guy Marie even though it's completely Masuka why? Cuz all true Messiah my sister with taken off the inside again and first my show only you don't have to give the mice are only because I might make a riot but you do have to be my first and be Corey shame in order to render the fruit not terrible and a half of my show only who took my free show me so fake the sacred to evil. So they hold Kusama Sake in a terrible river laser holes me so fake it's not terrible who are doing the bad day according to the same thing would be if you definitely if you definitely did not take off my sir only and let me show me the best fake and act in on not got fake I but because we're talking about a so fake so it picks up a quick even the sake of a night terrible since okay now what here's the money dollar question what is what does the factor of whether not being my first my sir only renders the produce terrible how is that in any way related to whether ownership of the gratitude forgiving it is a monetary right or not or what do these two things have to do with each other? I understand you want to say the river laser argue whether not giving my sir only renders it tevel. But what what does whether the produce is tevel or not what does that have to do with whether the ownership of gratitude is a monetary ownership. So the Ran explains the kivan de safek einu tevel, since mi safek, not taking of ma'aser ani doesn't render the produce tevel ke safek over lesh bei tovas hana. He holds that the ownership of gratitude is not a monetary right. Why? The tovas hana be tevel ve einu tevel talyah. Whether you have the right of gratitude is dependent on whether the produce is tevel. Why? De kasiv lo yehalelu es shem kodshi kodshei benei Yisrael ish asher yarimu. Don't desecrate. Desecrate implies something which is tevel. Don't desecrate the kodshim of benei Yisrael, that which you give. The darshinan de ba asidim le troyim ha kasuv medaber. The pasuk that says that what's tevel is tevel is something that you're destined to give. U mi de kasiv lo yehalelu mashma de tevel. The fact that it says don't desecrate is mashma it's tevel. Va hani de tivli talya >> [clears throat] >> So the gzeiras ha kasuv seems to be saying that the ability to give it and the ownership of giving it is dependent on whether it's tevel or not. If it's tevel then your right ability to give it is called a tovas hana. Va hani de tivli talya haramas on ba'alim. Loimesha to be sauna shall I him to save is a share your emo. Who command the receiver Bahuna Cena dummy it's like the word your emo it says giving. Who that could be the table equal to be sauna. It's only when something is table do you have the ownership of giving? >> [clears throat] >> I will be the lawyer table but if it's not table lawyer not. Or my sir only. >> [clears throat] >> And my sir only the man that is lay speaker in a table. According to the opinion that it's not table if you don't take off my sir only less pay table sauna there's no ownership of gratitude. Who could you call Lily honest my sir only therefore you could get her now they have care of a Mahu. Who made the arm record is him according to the opinion that you do say a name you do have to call it out cuz I was speaker table they hold it's because if you miss a pic it has a status of table the mission market soccer question that we have to call it the name the kosher speaker table is they table sauna if it's table you have the table sauna the EC but allow cuz it's included in the principle of Lily color as country of Israel who could give an is they her now. You can get her now. Um also listen wait to me today. Now. So whether something is table sauna and it's called your emo and giving it. Is going to be depend on whether it's table or not. But why would it or would not be tevel. So the run says like this. Look at the last narrow line. Uh let's continue. Kach per shur says this is how my rabbeim explain it. The light per shur plucked the toivel in a table they don't explain why it would or not be tevel. They explain why the toivel has no is dependent on whether it's tevel or not, but they're not explaining they're not explaining why it is or is not tevel. They're explaining why the ownership of gratitude is dependent on whether it is or isn't tevel, but they're not explaining the root of whether of why it is or it's not tevel. I saw somebody who's very mad in this, but I'll tell you the run outside. In my opinion, it appears as the run. The opinion holds it's not tevel. You know why it's not tevel? Because how could this pile of grain be chomer than the maaser ani mixed into it? Than the maaser ani itself? Terumah, if you don't take off, of course it's tevel. Cuz if you eat terumah, you're liable for misha. So if you don't take it off and it's mixed in, the whole thing is assur. But maaser ani, a zar is allowed to eat it. So how could the how could the terumah how could the maaser ani mixed into the pile be assur? And what about the man that omer that it is tevel? The run says we learn that from a drasha in Yevamos. Says don't eat in your gates and then it says the same way you do. So we learn out that is going on my only as well. Okay. So right now we're saying that the between the mission and the bracer what it's dependent on is whether not taking off my only makes it have a little not and if it is then is a value. Our mission holds to is a value like the and the bracer holds the to is not a value is not a value because it's not a value. I say no. No, the everyone holds that if you have a doubt whether you took off my only it becomes a value. And then if it's then is considered a benefit. That's anyway what the held. The other one would also agree that if you don't take off my it's I so why is not a value? Why you allowed to take off my only? The other one and the other one argue about this. The other one argue about this. The other one say the next to the other one only. The other one say the other one suspected of my only. The same way they take off they take off my only. Why? You know why? You know why? You know why? You know why? You know why? You know why? You know why? You know why? You know why? What do we worry? They didn't take off my only. Why wouldn't they take off my only? Oh, maybe they don't want to. Why wouldn't they want to? They could just be my other possessions and eat the my only themselves. So there's no reason to suspect they don't take off my ani, cuz they're not losing anything. Because if you're worried that they're going to be afraid of a loss of money, they could just render their property ownerless and eat the ma'aser ani themselves. Therefore, Reish Lakish says that there's no loss. Therefore, if you're buying the ma'aser, you're allowed to assume that amei ha'aretz took off ma'aser ani. That's how Rebbi Elazar holds. You don't need to be koirei shem. Well, you know why Rebbi Elazar holds you don't need to be koirei shem? Not because it's not tevel, because the ma'aser because the ani already took it off. I'm sorry, the amei ha'aretz already took it off. Rebbonon say amei ha'aretz are mafkin amei ha'aretz hold that person's not going to want to make their nechasim ownerless. Why? Demirtis, he's afraid the mazal will take away because if he makes his possessions ownerless, someone else would come be zoicheh in it. Nachshido, therefore there's a suspect and we have to be concerned they didn't take off ma'aser ani and therefore it's tevel and therefore, since it's tevel, there's a toivas hana'ah. I'm sorry, it's tevel. In other words, the machlokes between the chachamim and Rebbi Elazar is not whether it is tevel or not. Everybody agrees that if you don't take off ma'aser ani, it's tevel. And therefore, toivas hana'ah is a monetary right. And if you want to answer the mishna and the braisa, there's no way to answer it cuz everybody agrees toivas hana'ah is a benefit. And the machlokes of whether you need to be koirei shem is simply >> [clears throat] >> whether amei ha'aretz are are suspected of not taking off ma'aser or not. Look in the Ran. Ah, no, I'm sorry. This is what the Gemara says, therefore So, basically we're up the creek without a paddle. We don't have a an answer to explain to answer the mission on the braisa. We'll see. Rava will take care of that. Look in the run on the Abaye is coming to push off the answer of Yosef. And lemeimar and to say that the mission of the braisa are still the kulei alma safek tevel that according to everyone a safek According to everyone, safek is tevel. If you have a safek, it's tevel. You can't say the other way everybody holds it's not tevel. Because why would the Rabbanan say you do need to be koresh shame? If it's not tevel, why do you have to be koresh shame? So, you have to say everyone holds it is tevel. And the reason you wouldn't have to be koresh shame is because we don't we don't suspect The reason you wouldn't have to be koresh shame is we don't suspect the am ha'aretz didn't take it off. We assume he did. They definitely separated it. Cuz if they wanted to keep it they could have rendered their nachasim ownerless. Lo. Rava Rava says kan. Bema'aser oni besoy eis. Here we're talking about ma'aser oni that's given out in the house. Ma'aser oni that's given in the house says you should give it. Give he gives it to everyone. So, it's considered like he gets to have to have some fun. That's why the mission says you woman cannot benefit from I said only because it's called getting a mission of us a little lesson. Therefore, it's also for her to get benefit. Come on, but in the bracer, but my sir only because I got my noise. We're doing my sir only that's given out and divided in the not in the house, but in the silo in the greenery. And what does it say about there? Given the it says leave it in your gate. So, that you have to just abandon it. It's not called giving. It's not called to have a sauna. Therefore, therefore, you're allowed to get benefit. Let's see the run. Rava Amar Rava also a fruit came out of season. Rava is coming to answer the steward in the mission of ice. The light caution. It's not schwartz. We shouldn't worry about my sir only. The mission is talking about my sir only how much holiday we take about that's divided in the house. The key one should be able to buy this my calculator. Since [snorts] the the ball of ice distributes it for nice noise and he gives it to to have a sauna. He gets the benefit of the gratitude of my sir only. That's why the mission doesn't say she could benefit from my sir only. My sir only she's not allowed to take the my sir only. The bracer my my sir only the bracer is talking about my sir only that's divided among the silos show money going that you're leaving it in the silo the little little the husband the stiff free Ramy. There in the Sifrei They Okay, we don't have to do the Sifrei. But the gist of the Sifrei is when is it Venasata and when is it Venanachta? It depends whether it's the summer or the rainy season. In the summer, you leave it in the silo. When the rainy season comes, you divide it. And some explain it the other way. Okay. So, that's another way to answer up the Mishna on the Braisa. Really, everybody holds that it's Tevel. >> [snorts] >> Sfeikha d'Tevel. And they argue whether Am Ha'aretz and Nachshon Ma'aser Ani. And the The way to answer up the Mishna in the Braisa is depending on what season it is. Now, let's We're going to analyze the next part of the Mishna. The next part [clears throat] of the Mishna says, "Kohanim u'Levi'im nenan ananli." If I say, "Um Kohanim u'Levi'im can't get any hana'ah from me," the Kohanim u'Levi'im, they could take Terumah Ma'aser against his will. Now, by the way, the way we're explaining the Mishna of why you can't take Ma'aser Ani is because Ma'aser Ani renders it Tevel. And there's toivas hana'ah. There's to- Toivas hana'ah is mamon. But now, we're We're going to analyze the next part of the Mishna. The next part of the Mishna says, "Kohanim u'Levi'im nenan ananli." If I say, "Kohanim u'Levi'im can't get hana'ah from me," so then, yitlu, they're allowed to take it against his will. That's what the Mishna said on Perek Gimel Amud Beis. Yitlu al karchei. So, that implies toivas hana'ah in a moment. They're allowed to take it against his will because the benefit of gratitude is not a an ownership. It doesn't have value. The run says I'm a tova sana in a moment with the 20 the shanasu by no say that from the fact it says that the Kohanim that are us get a non-not from us and they could take the truma. Then the Mishna continues amasefa Kohanim A little if I say these Kohanim can't get benefit of these inner randomly get low others could take it. But these people can take it. Why? That sounds like tova sana. Is a benefit of a la honey lay I'm a tova sana mama. So it's a stira. Says the mara. Now, I I want to point out a major question here. That the first part of the Mishna, the fact that it doesn't say my sir only also indicates that tova sana is my money. Even you know, it's true in this part of the Mishna there's a stira. The fact that when you say I'm not going to give it to any coin or levy they could take against your will that shows tova sana. Uh does not have value. And if they say I'm not going to give it to this coin and this levy the fact they can't take it means tova sana doesn't doesn't have value. But we already proved from the Mishna the fact that that the woman if she makes another can't take my sir only that shows that uh the benefit of gratitude is a monetary benefit. Anyway the mara says like this there's no stira. How are you baby? The say for that these Kohanim can benefit cuz Ta'avas Hana'ah is Mamon, is going like Rebbi v'ha Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah. And the first part of the Mishna, which seems to indicate that if I say these Kohanim and Levi'im, so um I'm sorry if I say all Kohanim and Levi'im, they could take against his will as well, that it doesn't have benefit, it's not money, it goes like Rebbi Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah. And the Gemara explains the Tanya, "Ha'goineiv Tivlei shel chaveiro v'achalo." Let's say you steal someone's Tevel and you eat it. Now, the Tevel is, let's say, 90% the owned by the owner, who you stole it from, and the other the Terumah in it, he doesn't really own, does he? Unless you Unless Ta'avas Hana'ah is a benefit. In other words, let's say I You weren't Mafrish Terumah and Ma'aser, yet and I eat your grain. So, I definitely have to pay you the value of the Chullin in the grain, but do I have to pay you the value of the Terumah? Cuz you don't own the Terumah, you would have to give it to a Kohen, unless Ta'avas Hana'ah is Mamon. So, the Halacha is, "M'shalem lo d'mei Tivlei." You have to pay him the value of his Tevel. Divrei Rebbi, this is the opinion of Rebbi. Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah um Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah says, "Einoy m'shalem ela d'mei Chullin shebo." You only So, Rebbi holds you have to pay the value of the Tevel, not only the Chullin, but even the Terumah, cuz he holds Ta'avas Hana'ah is Mamon. That's why he holds if you say, "I asser these Kohanim, these Levi'im," they can't benefit from it. Rebbi Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah um Rebbi no, "Einoy m'shalem ela d'mei Chullin shebo." You only have to pay the value of the Chullin. Mai lav b'hacha kam p'ligei? The Rebbi savar Ta'avas Hana'ah Mamon, and Rebbe holds the benefit of gratitude is money. Let's see the run and we'll finish up with that. Who holds that if I ask her all kind of they could take against my will because not my mom and it's lay the in a moment to say for Rebbe. Now why would you have to pay the value of the whole world? The owner doesn't own the true money. He would have to give it to a coin. The value of the means the value of the and the value of the the true money. Okay, that is paid out of my mind. Review that. Now we're saying that the the big question is if you don't own something but you have the right to give the gift. Is that my mind or not? Okay. Um We'll hold it here. I wish everyone a wonderful night. Have a good night. Square.