Daf Hashavua - Nedarim 85a

Okay, good evening everyone. We're continuing in dafa shavua. We're learning maseches nedarim. Daf peh hey amud aleph. The gemara on peh dalet amud bet. Just brought the machlokes between Rebbi and Rebbi Yossi Rebbi Yehuda. Because the gemara asked a stira. First the mishna said on peh gimmel amud bet that if you asked her all by chanim, the chanim could take your tumas meisis against your will. That shows ta'avas hana'ah >> [clears throat] >> is not considered monetary value. Then the next case of the mishna says if I asked her these chanim and these levi'im, other chanim and levi'im could take but not those. So we see ta'avas hana'ah is mamon. So the gemara says that's okay. It's not a That's not sure. Ha? Rebbi v'ha Rebbi Yossi Rebbi Yehuda. Namely, we have a machlokes between Rebbi and Rebbi uh Rebbi Yossi Rebbi Yehuda. If you steal someone's tevel, how much you have to pay? So Rebbi holds you have to pay the value of the tevel. That seems to indicate ta'avas hana'ah mamon. Rebbi Yossi Rebbi Yehuda says no, you only pay the value of chulin. So what's the machlokes? The gemara says that seems to indicate that Rebbi savar ta'avas hana'ah mamon. Rebbi holds you have to pay the value of all the tevel. Holds ta'avas hana'ah is mamon. And Rebbi Yossi Rebbi Yehuda savar ta'avas hana'ah ein oin mamon. And therefore, the first part of the mishna that says they could take it against their will, they could take it against the will of the person who asked her them b'hana'ah, they hold ta'avas hana'ah is not mamon. And the second part of the mishna that says you have to give it to others, holds ta'avas hana'ah is mamon. So the gemara is not like the guy I am a terrorist Hannah in a moment. Really everyone holds it doesn't have value. I was the shot in the safer that you have to give it to others my turn I shall I hormone come here where we're talking about is where the true man the master wasn't separated yet. You're not talking about true man master. You're talking about table that has in it true and master that wasn't separated. That's the case that Rebbe and Rebbe Judah are arguing on. Rebbe and Rebbe don't argue about my mind or not. Everyone holds is not my mind. I if it's not my mind, why does Rebbe hold you have to pay back? >> [clears throat] >> The demigod is like it's because the guy didn't separate true master masters not yet. We don't look at it that it's like it was separated. No, it wasn't separated yet. So in the meantime you stole my table. Says Rashi says the run third line the Rebbe Rebbe holds true masters. Since you they didn't separate true man master have a look at cooling. It's like cooling. She boy the love it's like all cooling. It's like the cooling that's in it because it's not like it was separated. Rebbe Saba that since you have to separate it it's commission hormone dominant. It's like it was separated. The aim lawyer behind cooling. You don't have any ownership of it. Therefore you only pay the value of the the um cooling. So good ask on that wait a second. The table is Hannah in a How would this explain why Rebbe holds that you have to pay? Okay, then we're saying that everyone holds toy bus on a is not my mind. And what do they argue on? Rebbe holds that you have to pay the value of the tevel. Um Rebbe holds that you have to pay the full value because you you took something that entirely belonged to the owner. And Rebbe used to Rebbe used to Yehuda holds no, it's like you already were mafrishit. It's not the pshat that you stole my toy bus on a. It's It's In other words, according to Abiosi Rebbe Yehuda, why um At first the Gemara wanted to say the the machlokes whether you have to pay for the for the full tevel is well, you stole my toy bus on a of who I could give the trumah to. Now we're saying no, everybody agrees toy bus on a is not my mind. So then why does Rebbe hold you have to pay? Rebbe holds that you have to pay for the simple reason that it's not considered like I gave it yet. So the Gemara says, well, wait a second. V toy bus on a in a moment. >> [clears throat] >> If toy bus on a is not my mind, then mali hormo mali loy hormo. What difference does it make if it was separated or not? Meaning, even if it wasn't separated, why would Rebbe hold that you're going to have to pay the entire value? Why? >> Even if it wasn't separated, he's going to have to separate it, so it's not a loss. What does that mean? Meaning Rebbi holds that you have to compensate the guy for his trumah and ma'aser. Why? Why does Rebbi hold? What was the Gemara's svara that that you have to pay the guy? Rebbi's svara was, "Well, you have to compensate the guy because right now it wasn't separated yet. So, you stole the guy's chullin, so you have to pay for the whole thing." No, now we're saying that why would I have to pay the guy for the trumah and ma'aser? Why would I have to pay you? Eventually, you're going to have to separate the trumah and ma'aser. So, then why do I need to compensate you for it? If you say I have to compensate you for the ta'avah sanah, I understand. But if ta'avah sanah is not mamon, then who cares if it wasn't separated yet? Still, there is trumah and ma'aser in here, and you don't have any ownership over it. So, if ta'avah sanah is not mamon, who cares if you didn't separate it? So, the Gemara says like this, Elah heino ta'amah d'Rebbi. is the reason of Rabi. Really, terumah is not mammon. I, if it's not mammon, why do I have to pay you for the stealing the whole thing? It's a penalty. Kansu Rabbanan l'ganav, the Chachamim penalized the ganav ki hechech d'lo lignov, so he doesn't steal. So, therefore, you have to compensate for the entire value, lest you come to steal, as a deterrent, so that you don't steal. Now, the Gemara says, even if you want to say terumah is mammon, Rabi Yosi b'Rabi Yehuda says, Rabi Yosi b'Rabi Yehuda holds, no. He holds, kansu Rabbanan l'ba'al habayis ki hechech d'lo yishal l'tivla. It's the opposite. Really, terumah is mammon. And Rabi Yosi b'Rabi Yehuda holds that you don't have to pay me for the value of the terumah, even though you caused me a loss. The reason is, the Rabbanan penalized the owner because why does he Why is the owner keeping tevel in his house? He should have separated the terumah and ma'asros to begin with. He shouldn't have had this in his house. Let's see the Ran. Alachainu ta'ama d'Rabi. Hashta, lo yemi ba'ilan is the ta'avah terumah mammon or ainah mammon. Now, the Gemara is saying that the machlokes here is not whether terumah is mammon or not. The issue of terumah ainah mammon. If you hold terumah is not mammon, according to Rabi Yosi b'Rabi Yehuda, it's good. For Rabi Hainu ta'ama. Rabi holds the reason is the kansu Rabbanan l'ganav l'shalem terumah ainah the Knesset the gun of to pay the Torah shall be about bias. As a Knesset really Torah is not my mind, but we Knesset the gun of to pay the bias. These and even if you want to say it is my mind the Rebbi according to Rebbi it's good. For Rebbi I knew time out. The Rebbi according to Rebbi here's the reason that you only pay the Shabbat. You know why? Really I owe you the money, but I don't have to pay for the Torah is the Torah Shabbat Torah is the Torah. So in other words what the Torah is saying now is the Rebbi and Rebbi has nothing to do with Torah or in a moment. If you want to say in a moment then Rebbi is good and Rebbi holds you have to pay as a Knesset for taking the guys for stealing the guys Torah. And if you want to say Torah is my mind why is Rebbi saying you don't have to pay? The reason you don't have to pay is we Knesset the owner for hanging on to the Torah of the Torah. If this is the case if the is not whether Torah is my mind or not then we're up the creek without a paddle because how do we explain the mission of why does the first statement in the mission I say that if you ask you you have to give it to them they could take it against your will. And the second part says if you ask her these you have to give it to others. So the mission I seems to be contradicting itself whether Torah or not. But now we're saying this is not the mission of Rebbi and Rebbi. Once it's not the mission of Rebbi then what's the mission of in our mission? How do we explain these two different statements? So Rebbi Rebbi says Rather says like this, shani truma. Truma is different. Really rather is going to say toivas hana'as mammon. And that's why in the safer if I answered these kohanim then I'm not allowed to give the truma to these kohanim. I have to give it to others. Because if I give it to these, I get they're getting hana'ah. I'm getting hana'ah. In other words, if I say I'm not What was the case of the mishna again? The case of the mishna is kohanim v'leiyim v'leiyim. I answered kohanim and leviyim to get hana'ah from me. So, then if I answered these kohanim and these leviyim if toivas hana'ah is mammon I'm not allowed to give it to them. Cuz they're benefiting from me. I'm giving them the benefit. You know, if toivas hana'ah is mammon then I'm not allowed to give them I would have to give the truma ma'aser to other kohanim and other leviyim. I, so why in the reisha could they take it against my will? If toivas hana'ah is mammon, no, in the reisha shani truma. Truma is different. What does that mean truma is different? Truma is different when you answered all the kohanim in the world. The high new time it could here's the reason why they could take it against your will. B'shum the truma leichas el kohanim. Truma could only be eaten by kohanim. But if truma could only be eaten by all by kohanim and I answered all kohanim v'keivan d'ka asur l'histarei alav alav u And since since he made a neder that and he answered all the Kohanim upon himself, shavya afro d'alma. He's He's making it like dust. What did he say? He said it's also to all Kohanim. So, if he if he answered to all Kohanim, so then he loses the terumah So, if he loses the terumah, so then the coin could take it. Really, terumah is my money. But if you answer all the Kohanim in the world, then you don't you lose the ability to give it to the Kohanim. So, if you lose the ability to give it to the Kohanim, then you've destroyed the terumah. Really fundamentally, Rava is saying terumah is my money. If I have the right to give it to who I choose, that has monetary value. The only thing is, if I answer all the Kohanim in the world, then I've lost that right. I can't give it to any coin. So, I can't give it to any coin. I've self-destructed. I've caused the my terumah to self-destruct. So, in that case, I've made it afro d'alma. Look in the Ran. Rava Amar, shani terumah kol amar kol uma is like terumah money. The whole Mishnah holds terumah is my money. The seifa The seifa is good. The Kohanim elu >> [clears throat] >> that if I answer these Kohanim, other Kohanim could take it. Varisha and then the reisha ta'ama de yitlu bal karchei. Here's the reason why they could take it against you. Our Mishnah The terumah Kohanim. Terumah is only fit to Kohanim. She actually only So, I can't give it to you. So, therefore, given the maser alayu, since you answered it to all Kohanim, shavya afro d'alma, I made it dust. The afkurei lahi terumah she ish l'aba. The same thing would go for ma'aser. Namely, if I also all the levi'im from taking ma'aser, so then I've rendered uh valueless the tiv'as hana'ah of ma'aser, cuz I can't give it to anyone. So, that's the way Rava explains the Mishnah on page gimel amud bet. Says the Mishnah, "Koinam she'eini ois'el piha, I asser, I'm not going to give hana'ah." I'm not going to work al pi avah, for the mouth of my father. Ve'al pi avicha, for the mouth of your father. Ve'al pi achi, for the mouth of my brother. Ve'al pi achicha, for the mouth of your brother. Ein yachol hafer. [clears throat] So, the husband can't be made for the neder. Why should he be able to be made for the neder? It's not nidrei inah nefesh, and it's not bein od lebeina. She'eini ois'el picha, let's say she said, "I'm not going to work for you." Ein tzarich lafer, he doesn't have to annull it, because she has to work for him, because the ma'aseh yadai'im of a wife go to the husband. Rebbi Akiva omer, Rebbi Akiva says, "No, he he does annull it." Rebbi Akiva omer, yafer, he should annull it. Why? Cuz she maybe she mat'adef alav yoser mi're'ai, she might earn more than is fit to him. She only has to support him for x number of dollars. There's a certain amount. Um she has to work five sela a reish, meaning she has to produce x number of weight of income a week. But whatever she does more, that's she owns it. So, Rebbi Akiva says, he um he should annull the nether because this way he's annulling what she has to work for him goes to him anyway even if he doesn't annul it, but the excess so then he should annul because she might make more than that five seller. And so in other words the annulment is on the excess. Okay, and wait a second. How is he annulling it? Why would he annul it? Is that she doesn't have to give it to him. So is that the nether? That's that's the question. The mission will bring another opinion. Yafer, he should annul it for another reason. Because she might get divorced. Cuz he might divorce her at which point she that the nether will be annulled. We'll see her love. And then she's going to be also to him. She won't be able to remarry him because her mercy of dying will become also to the husband. So annul it now for a time when the nether might be later. I'm not sure what said to her via menu. The law goes like a menu. But wait a second. The law goes like a menu. That the nether that she makes to us her her husband when she's married to him is annulled. The nether is annulled for a later time. Right now a nether is like an carbon. But that means right now she's to work for him. So it's not now. When is it for when he divorces her? So that means you could create an Issur hekdesh for a later time. Does that show us l'memra, shall we say, the ksav sh'mal Adam maktish davar sh'lo b'olam? From the fact that you can make a neder because Rebbi Akiva says you should annul it for later. Well, that means the neder will be chal later. What do you mean the neder will be chal later? Adam maktish davar sh'lo b'olam? Shall we say we see from here Adam maktish davar sh'lo b'olam? And the Gemara says, "Rami, I'll ask you a stira." Hamaktish maseh yishtei, if you are maktish your wife's handiwork and we'll see what the stira is tomorrow. If Shmuel seems to say that you can be maktish davar sh'lo b'olam, well, let's see if that uh if that works out. Okay, friends. Daf that was Daf Pey Hey Amud Aleph. And uh we're nearing the masechta ends on Daf Tzadi Aleph. So, we're we're within our arm's reach of soif maseches Nedarim. Habba l'Tova. Have a great night. Kol tuv. >> Recording stopped. >> Thank you.