Rabbi Mordechai and Sarah Kahan - Our Journey - Mastering Unpopular Tools

okay so our road our story really began my name is 'more hai kahan whenever Midwood flappers so nineteen years ago that's pretty much when things came to light that there was a issue with her older son we had at that point four children my oldest son was about fourteen and seemed to be everything that was going pretty much mainstream he graduated eighth grade in the mainstream yeshiva and he actually looked extremely unhappy during his graduation really really uptight then from there he went a mainstream camp and then there in visiting day we went there and I had counselor told us you know we're not sure the camp it's a good match for you your son is acting in different ways he wasn't really causing trouble but he was he was doing things you know I can't drill exactly pinpointed the head counselor didn't say exactly what it was but was the first time we ever heard that someone suggested my son should be on meds now this story was 19 years ago about and Ritalin and meds what wasn't widely prescribed to everybody it wasn't was very very new to us for sure and it came to pretty much as a shock after camp he went to mainstream high school which we thought at the time was a very good match for him the school he thought he wanted and may seem silly what I'm gonna say after hearing what everybody spoke about this weekend but the principal calls me we caught your son and he went to the movies supposed to be big son I'm not sure what the big deal was but and they they couldn't handle it you know and he took another kid with him and from there the principal we had found that a few months later had instructed all the children not to speak to my son he's a bad influence and that corner did him in and reflecting we learned that in in the school system he didn't have a lot of friends in elementary a lot of us were bein like you know decided to ignore him so you know you would think ignoring a child it's not a big deal you know just the kid in the back but for him it was a very very big deal after as for most children and we got the if he call back into the principal's office towards the end of the year and he said you know we're not gonna be able and we're not gonna be able to take his son back to school next year so he said don't worry I'll help you get your kid into the school and really he just gave us a list of schools to call anyway he left us hanging there at that point and he went to another school very very small school and was great the principal had a certain way of handling him and was at that point that again may seem a little bit silly but it was 19 years ago and things were quite different than as far as kids acting out the term kids at risk was beginning to come to fruition they're good at was talking about it openly and it was a very very new beginning and a lot of times my son used to leave the house you know he was dressed in the reverse instead of having the white shirt and the black pants he had the black shirt and the white white pants so for me at that time you know it was a big deal really today it's not a big deal really should never be a big deal and that's really how our road began and tenth grade was okay and then in 11th grade he decided the principal that is going to turn the school into totally mainstream school and so all of a sudden my son didn't fit in again into the school I wouldn't take it from there so [Music] even you know even though you know our son his journey was not filled with a lot of um more serious behaviors it doesn't matter a Kipp is a Kipp he was a he was terribly in pain he was a kid in pain emotionally unhealthy and really you know became clinically depressed he did have his traumas were that he was neglected no one knew how to handle him we didn't know how to handle him so he he didn't feel unconditionally loved at home he did not he felt neglected in school he was just completely ignored and he became unhealthy clinically depressed and very much in pain and then through his journey we learned how to shift that around to learn how to do a different type of parenting and to show him that he has accepted just the way he is and once we were able to do that he became emotionally healthier once we learned how to separate the Yiddish kite from the emotional issues the yiddish kite began to follow initially we were you know we didn't know that you're you're not supposed to guide them in yiddish kite but we learned that yesh kite is not an issue we don't address that when a child is in pain we're focused on really helping the child become emotionally healthy and when we did that the tension in the house calm down he felt accepted he got emotionally healthier and now bark Shem as an adult he's 32 years old now he is married he has four children Kenan Hara he lives in betar elite and his personality was always you know the kid in pain often has a sensitive neshama he could not handle the hypocrisy he couldn't handle one you know use your you're preaching one thing but you're behaving another way he just could not handle that and as a result of that he's extreme now also you know he's like ultra Haredi very you know Ryan and you know still can't handle the hypocrisy even though he's now the definition of what is hypocritical changed but bar question we at sea otter - Maya and you know we can only put in our hashtag loss the results are up to Hashem and subsequently we then we now we have a daughter who's 25 and because of him we knew right away from when she was 1 years old this is another Kip another potential Kip sure enough you know she also was diagnosed with ADHD learning disabilities didn't fit in in certain aspects things got better in the seven years after he was born because schools were less blaming the parents more aware that learning disabilities and ADHD is a thing but on the other hand you know the issues got deeper right so sure issues you know she fell deeper into the painful behaviors the not much like not keeping Shabbos sneaking out at night hooking up you know I think we're all familiar with with that dynamic but the the big difference was we knew already exactly what to do she was accepted right away for the way she is from day one and Baraka shame also we had see after - Maya she's now married happily married she just recently told me my I never knew I was smart like she's in she's in fi T she has a passion for for interior design and she's like I'm really smart you know and she got on the Dean's List and it's like I thought I was a dummy I thought I thought I'm really stupid so a kid in pain is a kid in pain last night that you Rudel spoke about the good child which resonated very much with me because sandwiched between those two children is a good child but this good child is also a Kip she was also a kid in pain and again I resonated with me what back just said it's like how can you act out you don't have ADHD you don't have a learning disability but nonetheless she was also a kid in pain and now I'm gonna self disclose I feel like running home and telling her yes you know I think better understanding of the pain that you must have gone through so that's our story and you know thank you for listening to us and this was an amazing Shabbos really got a chance to to hear other people's story and again take the mask off and really be open and share you know what really goes on behind closed doors that that other people can't understand so we open it up to questions if you have any questions yeah my kid feels uncomfortable going to my parents they're good people and they really try they just get very stiff around him because they're uncomfortable and like my parents house in Lakewood and they invited us you know he married with a baby you know well yes the no because we can't control others right so we do the best we can but we certainly can help our Kip right we can we can we can once we have the relationship with them right which which we all work on and having the relationship with them it's it's it's then to to talk to them about you know it must be really difficult for you to go to buy beans IV and maybe they don't get it or you feel unaccepted or so we can help our Kip in that way you know when someone is obviously uncomfortable about you it ranks you so often it's not about the problem-solving sometimes we can't solve the problem right it's often about the process it's like I know this is uncomfortable I can understand that this is really hard for you what do you want to do about it so sounds like your father is interested to really make the effort to get a relationship with his grandson we found often that someone he might be able to speak to someone who he respects very much who's in the partial who could give it over to him in his age group and his understanding every door every generation has a different way of understanding something so sometimes very hard to take from a child or grandchild but if he could get rough with somebody in this age group somebody who respects somebody who knows the power saw maybe he'll be able to explain it to your father in a way where your father is willing to accept it and to work with it but if you're saying okay then aren't you telling you they're just real are you really can't make that job right you're saying someone in his generation age yeah someone he respects and someone who's familiar with the parish ah Mike is 21 comes home every additional heavy let me to show possibly come to Jakarta not dog is it's great for my kid but the special-needs child can't pull himself away from this dog and handle things in a way back aggravates so it became that when he's here when he comes home for Shabbos we have to talk away or should i defuse it that way as far as you know stopping that thought he doesn't belong here and I want to know but how can I is the insert anyway was worse because at one point when you came to me you gave us advice it really worked and I use it everywhere like wow how does that make you feel you emotionally connect and it gives you a chance to to mend hair right and bond it's just really great is there any other type of anything that I could do that when he does come what can I tell my daughter to be more accepting even though she really doesn't see it she's kept only sees themselves they can't what can I do what can I say except either I know that the dog is an issue with the dog maybe or with them the brother and sister what advice do they have a relationship you have a visible a good relationship yeah yeah like No my thoughts are right so I would talk to your Kip right and say I'm not sure how to solve this problem we have a problem and I hear you I understand you right so what kind of message you think I would I would be sending you and the family if I don't let him come home right imagine if I said you can't come home imagine if I said someone else can't come home right this household has a household where we don't do that certain aspects have benefits to it certain aspects don't have benefits to it but so we we acknowledge the benefits and we acknowledge the parts that are not beneficial for every chance have a lock on the door no even though I mean how she is already older right she right she's 21 can you talk to the other your kids are younger you have younger kids 18 so so then a lock on the door may be an option if if if the 21 if you feel that the 21 year old is responsible enough to manage a lock on her door it's not okay see I'm very much focused on on on not always necessarily solving the problem the solving the problem is understanding the problem making the kid feel like like we understand the problem right and something right and then it's it's it's this is a problem for you not sure how to solve it and that that is how we solve problems sometimes we don't go into always the problem-solving mode any common activity they could do together to kind of get them a little bit friendlier to each other you know the love is there so that's a very very positive thing if they do follow sports do sports go to a game place do any common outside of the house not in the house a common activity that they could enjoy together with how pressure having to you know we like you have to do but you know together child special so it comes because it wants to give comfort but coming even close my kid will scream out the get away from my dog anything touching yet anyone else coming to him so it's just it's a calm she needs their space this is just constantly overstepping the boundaries he would he knows that he will go right into space can't stop I know that you are doing amazing and we are sorry to have you so that's long suggestion [Laughter] you want to say something okay okay any other questions for us questions thoughts comments now I'll go get me some more you gave us any more tips on relations so I'm gonna ask you a question then how would you say the relationship is between you and your Kip slash Kipps and when I say how's your relationship can you just share me share a little with me when you say your relationship is good what is it no like what you like right I realized that at that point knowing what I know I realized that what I thought was a good relationship when I came to Nashik sure gosh I was probably out of 30 hmm and when weren't fighting and you know I respected his face and all of that but once I started doing TPM II actually started talking the gifts and the tricks and he started really opening up to us about the embarrass that he was doing I would say that at this point one year later because we just celebrated our first anniversary without me we are probably I am probably 85 Wow okay so up here is is there's no more fighting in the house and this and the tension is went away right so now we wanted once that happens we want to really go a little bit deeper right and a little bit deeper is when the child shares with us how how they're feeling what what their pain is inside of them for creating an environment of safety security for them to be able to share with us their struggles even though the struggles could be quite painful and difficult for us to hear but we are creating an environment where yes you can share with us anything so that being said would you say that is that the way it is between your children and yourself will will they be able to come to you and share with you on a deeper level not not just could you get me this and yes I'll I'll get it for you and can we go here and yes sure can they go a little bit deeper with you can do you go the deeper with them and and you know it's like you're looking a little bit sad what's no how come you know is it it's the the emotional is this deeper is here so we're really trying to get to here and then use it to help them move developmentally along we don't stop at just the relationship it's a means to an end we're using the relationship to help them move along developmentally into the next step so we start with here yes sure no problem of course right but then we we have to take that right get them thinking get them figuring out where they want to go in their lives and then for us to to help them again not telling them what to do but help them figure out and help them do what they want to do with the next steps they want so any thoughts and comments so I think how do you meet so I it starts with all the giving right and then they they begin to trust us right because I was like we don't have an agenda before we got on to this Mahalo it's like they fit felt like we have an agenda for them right you you are you either like us or you're not we're not happy with you right so so it begins with with not having an agenda we're creating an atmosphere and environment of we don't have an agenda our only agenda is your happiness our only agenda is for you to to feel good right so once once we do that right we we can tell when they're feeling like they can trust us because they start sharing things with us when they start sharing things with us then we know that we're creating an environment that is they don't have an agenda bammy they're accepting me just the way I am and and I'm feeling accepted just the way I am so then they start to talk and when they start to talk we listen and then when we listen we can find little openings again the openings that that we find we get we tread very very carefully we never go in front of them slapping them we're always beside them well so it's like compassionate curiosity we're always compassionately curious and when we when they start to talk to us we are listening with compassionate curiosity and then when I'm so curious to hear about that you mentioned that you love playing guitar let's say wow that's really silly let me hear more about that again we're we're trying well that's so interesting you said eventually you want to go to college and study blah blah blah blah blah I'm very interested to hear about that and we just we constantly stay alongside them that's how we use the relationship the relationship is that we make them feel that you could share with us anything and then we're our only agenda is your happiness did I answer your question right well right so some kids it sounds like she's scared of emotions many of us are scared of it we are many of us are scared ourselves of it right soaps because some of us are not comfortable in feeling embarrassed I mean these are difficult feelings shame shame is we are no good we feel horrible we're just no good we're not comfortable going there and neither are our kips comfortable going there so they can get scared from when the emotions start to come up so again we pay attention to where they're at if they're not comfortable going there so we're not gonna go there we're just wherever they are that's where we are hang on one second I'm sorry I'm just high but the fact that she said that though the fact that she said that means you took a step forward she was comfortable enough and felt safe enough to say that after all this so because she's willing to go on a server I'd love to go with you let's go when do we go when are we having a joint phone session on the phone I really want to make sure that I feel terrible that you feel that we don't have a relationship right it's the I and the we I feel really bad that we let's talk to your therapist about it I will do whatever it takes that you should feel that we have a relationship because I want that very very badly hundred percent so it sounds like wow you just said something that that that's very important for me to hear you feel that we don't have a relationship right correct and we and you don't there's no buts after right it's it's just no parts not apologies either no because even believe it or not apologies can also be invalidating yeah I'm sorry that you felt that way I'm not sorry about what I did and it's like I'm so sorry then why what I did I'm so no I'm sorry you felt that way it's really it's really about the field I'm listening to you and I feel really terrible that you feel that way and it's always I'm listening to what you're saying tell me more and if ya now Michelle he he speaks to me not very much to my husband he's that's the big stay yes that's huge right so the way we get there and again we work we always have to be where they're at so we're like putting a toe into the water a drop a head and that is we pay attention to how they look the nonverbal communication stone so you hold on to that and when you see that glimmer of a smile and laugh you're going to comment on and pay attention to that well you look like you're smiling doesn't matter doesn't matter it's where we're going after the emotion going after the effect we're going because that's the deeper stuff so so we we we speak a lot also with our nonverbal communication so we pay very close attention to that if if you know if if the child is walking in like this and whatever you look like something's up what's going on and and mate you know it's it could be nothing okay but we just that's how we deepen it until they say Yemma I had a really bad night and and then it's it's once they share a feeling then it's for us to listen to it validated and empathize with it it's for them to feel understood for them to feel hurt and that feels great we need to wrap up but I just want to bring a very important point and I'm not saying it because it doesn't apply to every situation but we were fortunate that as you can see we were on the same page and that was really very helpful for our hips and I and over this Shabbos they a lot of focus and talk was spoken about the shown bias in the house so when applicable that's a very important piece in terms of helping our children