Special - Being Jewish In An Upside-Down World With Rabbi Efrem Goldberg

Now there are many rabbis who try to go viral. You know, there are rabbis who are, you know, have a very strong online presence. We've had some of them on. Rabbi Shay Schtul for example, Rabbi YY. >> But there's one rabbi who we've been seeking for a while who's really, really popular. And he does really a phenomenal job in disseminating Torah and really inspiring Jews worldwide. And that's Rabbi Ephraim Goldberg. And in this episode we kind of discuss all the topics between Israel and Ben Shapiro and his role in all the I don't want to say anti-Semitism, but that's really what it is. Yeah. Yeah. And >> [clears throat] >> And he even gets into, you know, some of the nitty-gritty, some of the personal things that he's been involved in. I mean, it was just He's mesmer- When he speaks, he's mesmerizing. >> Yes. You know, he has that ability. It was really, really great and he could do a lot better. He could speak a lot better than we can about all these topics. So we're going to get to it. But before we do, we do want to mention that this episode was made possible thanks to Town Appliance. For one, they are the place to turn for all your appliance needs. They can ship anywhere. They're at townappliance.com. They're going to find your appliance within your budget and the best appliances that will fit your Jewish lifestyle. Check them out. And this episode is also brought to you by Project Mesorah. They arrange trips to Poland so you can get a first-hand look at the Holocaust and the concentration camps, but also Kivrei Tzadikim. Uh you can arrange a trip for your shul or you can give a trip to your loved one. Visit them at projectmesorah.org or you can call them or even text them at 845-570-1943. And here's Rabbi Ephraim. Okay, it's been a long time coming. We're very excited. We've been working on this for a while and we've been finally able to get our schedules. We have perhaps one of the most one of the busiest people in the in the world in the Jewish world. And rightfully so because he's a world-renowned speaker, podcast host of many podcasts, inspirational writer, and the list goes on and on. But we're very excited to have with us Rabbi Efrem Goldberg. Welcome, Rabbi. Thank you so much. That introduction was overly kind and I hope I can live up to it, but I appreciate it. Well, I I I don't know about overly kind. I can tell you one thing. If I didn't give you a very nice intro, I'm going to hear about it from my wife who's a very big fan. And I'm not going to get dinner and it's going to be it's going to be problems. So Tell her I appreciate it. I appreciate her listening and learning together. It's I still can't believe I I pinch myself every day that I have the privilege of learning not only offline our local Boca community, which is of course my primary responsibility and love, but a gift of of COVID of which there were very few, but for me one was that pivot online that opened up the whole world in connecting and learning with people who I don't even know, but our neshamos are somewhere in the uh in the digital world learning together. So it's very meaningful. Please thank her. Oh, for sure. I I On that topic, I don't even understand. I cannot fathom. Look, we do this podcast. We do it once a week. And it takes up a lot of time, a lot. And I'm sure you know that. I can't even fathom the concept of doing all of the podcasts. You have to create the material. You have to do the recordings. You know, it's it's insane. Plus you're a rav of a of a of a shul. How on earth are you able to do this? It's it's a great question. So to clarify, it's really you know, there's there's one real podcast from the sensor perspective of what you'd call a podcast. All the all the others are shiurim that I'm giving. And the shiurim that I'm giving are local and um you know, I mentioned Corona and how we pivoted to go online. I still see myself as sort of a prehistoric dinosaur getting it all wrong. I look at others and see their professionalism and how much more we have to improve. But if we did one thing right, we're a step ahead of many shuls. So, during Corona when people were, you know, putting an iPad on a crooked tripod and and the angle was off and you couldn't hear anything, we invested because it all it took was Googling like what's a good microphone? What's a good web camera? How do you set it up? You know, the right distance, the right angle, the right background. And and that put us just a little bit um got us a little bit of a head start. So, the shiur I give I continue to stream live on YouTube and and get posted the audio to podcast, but those aren't podcasts in the sense that there's no editing, they're not getting published. Um there's not work in advance other than preparing a shiur, giving a shiur, and then the audience and the community that I have the enormous zchus to learn together with at the shiur. The only podcast we really had was behind the bema, which has been on a break, but I'm really excited to tell you is coming back, brand new. We built a local studio in our shul. And instead of doing the virtual like we are right now, which is great and you get access to all kinds of people that don't have to be there in person, as you said, for me one of the things that was time-consuming was lining up guests, preparing, figuring out the schedule that it works, and then doing the whole thing. It One of the things we have a a book arts on synagogue in our shul that I'm very grateful for are my my colleague and dear friend Rabbi Moscow. It's really directs and leads. We have an amazing program and calendar of people who come through. From world-famous Jewish music superstars to, and not in this order, Russia yeshiva to men and women educators to political personalities. Tonight we have a program with two wounded soldiers from the IDF. And what I realized was we got 40, 50 more people who come through who the world would love to meet and should meet and hear. Instead of trying to figure out how to schedule people virtually, let's build something locally that part of the commitment of coming is that we sit with you in our studio, we record a conversation, we get it done easily, and get it out. So, hopefully that's going to make that a lot more efficient and we'll be be and better than ever. I'm looking forward to bringing that soon. Oh, that's great. That's very exciting. Which series is that, Rabbi? That's the Behind the Bima one. Right, that's what I figured. And you have you have like four podcasts at least uh that are consistently in like the top charts. So, the shiurim are again the the shiurim that are posted on podcast players and um Living with Emunah, Parsha Turn Friday into Shabbos. Uh I don't even remember what I'm leaving out right now, but we we those are just shiurim that get posted as podcasts. The podcast that you call a proper podcast the Behind the Bima. And then we did a series called Out of the Shadows about mental health, taking away the stigma of mental health. Hope to bring that back soon, too, cuz a lot of people have have asked for it. And then there's a couple of other podcasts that I really want to get started. Those will be hard to do locally because there are great people that I want to speak to which will require virtually, but one on shidduchim, the dating process, and uh and marriage, and another one on parenting, a guide for the parenting perplexed, where I think there's enormous out amount out there that's theoretical, right? We could all quote divrei Torah and vortlach and insights into chinuch, but I want to know rochav u'v'katav. I want to specific I want to have a question. My kid doesn't want to get out of bed and daven. Do I force him? Do I let him sleep? My daughter wants to walk out of the house dressed that way. Do I fight? My Shabbos table this is going on. Again, every situation is different, every child is different, so it's hard to be specific, but there are some klalim. And then to hear the differences between great experts in chinuch, parenting, education, psychology, and hopefully give people a blueprint for how to approach some of these things cuz you could read the greatest books and hear the greatest vortlach and and hear the greatest shiurim, but you're still left in cloaked in total mystery about what to do in practice. I I love how you just sidestep the fact that even though they're shiurim, but in the podcast world they get released as podcasts and you are consistently top-rated. So, I Yeah, he he sidestepped it, but we're we're aware cuz we're in the same business. So, So look and we're like, "Wow, uh what is he doing?" But I think uh the Ramah Yitzchok Min Ha'Aretz, right? I mean, you're giving over your Torah and I think it's resonating with people, but I want to take a step back for a second. You're talking a lot about Boca. I mean, we're here in New York. Uh and I think we'll we'll talk about this a little bit afterwards if we have time. You know, there's a lot of uncertainty in in terms of the Jewish world, in terms of you know, everybody's very nervous these days about what's been going on, the elections, etc. So you're out there living the dream in Florida. I mean, for us, that's like the dream. How did you end up living the dream? I never thought I'd be here. I'm I'm on year of our 2-year plan to be in in Boca. I was learning in college in Israel finishing up my smicha at at the Gross College in Jerusalem. I got married and we went right there for 2 years. And at the end of the 2 years, I wanted to continue to learn, but I also wanted to start to get my feet wet and figure out what I want to do, who I want to be when I grew up. I knew it was in some area of Avodas Hakodesh. I had always assumed, always from when I decided it to be in chinuch. I had role models, people who impacted my life. I got a gishmack out of trying to learn with an impact younger younger people and I thought chinuch was the way. So Boca Raton at the time had a community kollel that you could learn part of the time and also were involved in Turned out that I started out with outreach, but it could be chinuch, could be in all kinds of different areas. And and we came to the kollel for 2 years. I'd never heard of Boca Raton. I'd never heard of it, but someone came to recruit for it and there was a meeting worth having. I had a great aunt and uncle who lived in this place, Boca Raton. I thought it was like, you know, a place for old people. South Florida used to be called God's waiting room, you know, it's it's where [laughter] you go. A little harsh. So so that's you know, that's what we thought of South Florida and that's what I thought of Boca Raton that I had never that I had never heard of. So we came we came for 2 years and at the time the community was a lot smaller and the makeup was very different. There were a lot of people who grew up in the New York area and were running away from it and leaving some of their Can't imagine why. Can't imagine. >> behind. Um but but running away differently than they are now. You know, now they're running maybe towards nicer weather or different taxes or or different uh policies. Um then they were running away from living under the microscope and wanted to be a little bit more free about their religious practice. Um so that was part of the demographic, a lot of ba'alei teshuvah, but um you know, interesting and sometimes unusual stories. It was an interesting makeup. The community kollel, there there was no one to fill in between like a hamara give a dvar Torah. Like a shalom zachar, you'd sing This is an exaggeration, but you know, Hava Nagila. Like they weren't they weren't a mainstay [laughter] of people who can bring that energy. And the kollel filled that role. And the kollel was was remarkable. And my predecessor, Rabbi Brener, started it, ran it, and it became the farm system for the whole community cuz many of the machonim that we have today and rabbonim came through that kollel. Um so we came for those 2 years. Rabbi Brener was the rabbi. Rabbi Josh Fass was the assistant rabbi. He left to begin Nefesh b'Nefesh. Mhm. And I became the assistant rabbi. And when uh when Rabbi Brener left, I became the rabbi in 2005. So I say that I've been in the right place at the right time and have had the enormous bracha of being given a lot of the right opportunities. And I thought I was going to go into chinuch, but my wife is the one who really who really um guided me towards rabbonus. And I look back now and say there's no way I could survive in chinuch. When I go to the local schools, I'm invited to give a a class, a shiur, teach a period, I'm exhausted afterwards. Our machonim are educators who have to keep the attention of our kids in the generation in which we're living and who deal with the the preparation, the curriculum, the grading, uh dealing with parents, who have to deal with the discipline, who have to keep kids' attention. They're heroes. I don't know how they have the energy to do it. It's amazing. But I could never do that. And and instead went into the rabbonus, which I love every single day. I feel like the I feel like the luckiest man alive. Oh, wow. That's That's something you don't hear all the time. I do. I I have an aversion and allergy to rabbis who complain. There's There's unfortunately a phenomenon, some not all, not many, but some who act like victims, right? The balabusta miserable and I'm underpaid and I get no covered and this is a miserable job and I'm overworked and I'm So I say, don't don't don't change jobs. Go into something else cuz we need shepherds who love what they do. And if you don't feel I'm not going to tell you there aren't difficult days. I'm not going to tell you there aren't difficult people, difficult moments, or there aren't times that you need to disconnect and rejuvenate. But on the whole, it's it's it's the greatest It's the greatest in the world. No two days, no two hours are the same. It covers a gamut of different things. It is It's just the It's the most remarkable, meaningful life. And since you since you've arrived and since you've taken the the really you've taken the helm of the synagogue, there's been some pretty serious growth. I think there's there's an expansion going on right now, isn't there? Hashem, yeah, we're doing We're building a lot. Um and uh it's a big project. We If anybody here has money laying around that they're trying to put to good use, we we're not done yet with our campaign. Um like many, you know, shul campaigns, you have your number, then it turns out that that wasn't the number. So we raised a higher number, which also turned out not to be the number, not because there was anything irresponsible, but prices change, factors change, and dreams change if you want to build your real dreams. And And as I like to say in in our solicitations and fundraising, we're not building square footage. We're not building uh decor or bricks and mortar. We're We're building a platform where we can try to impact the world. So locally in Boca and South Florida and from it, hopefully more broadly, but a place of community, of learning, of growth, of inspiration, of connection, of connection to each other, to Torah, to Hashem, to Israel, and and beyond. Side question. We You know, we don't often have the opportunity to have a rabbi. Many times on our podcast we we we talk about something and we're like, "Oh, we need a rav. We need to ask a rav." Now that we have you here, we're going to just ask some questions here and there. But Sure. do contractors get Olam Haba? That's all I want to know. >> [laughter] >> Will they all go to Gan Eden? No, there's some there's some who get Olam Haba. Of course, especially when they build shuls and schools and they try to keep on schedule and on budget. Oh, yeah. Cuz I'm sure your budget started with one thing and it's way different. But what what about the community of Boca? I mean, it's it seems like it got much bigger. Yeah, Boca's exploding. There's not a shul or school in the community that's not at record enrollment or membership. In fact, many of these shivas, many of the schools actually have no more room. Some have built buildings, expansions over the last couple of years and most you can't get into now. Um and and that's a word of caution. We'll see how the election there goes and its impact over the next few weeks and months, but if a person's planning to move to Boca or to South Florida in general, you know, don't move first and then apply to school second. First, make sure that the schools or the school you would want has availability and then plan your move because unfortunately there are people who are coming and only learning the hard way then that that schools are just literally closed out. There's no more room in those classrooms. It it leads itself it lends itself to something remarkable, which is the achdus. I think Boca was always known and we worked hard for that sense of achdus. Um but when everyone's at record membership and enrollment, it's really easy to all get along. You know, nobody is taking from anyone else. You're not competing in such a way that someone's worried about about tomorrow. Right now, everyone's doing wonderfully well. Community is robust and big and and wonderful. There's been changes from the old Florida and Boca that we used to have. There's an expression that people here said for a long time, which was, you know, don't New York our Florida. And and it's okay cuz if you're from New York New York area, you're allowed to say that holding on to the best parts and and loving New York. Um and and there definitely are changes. Careful what you wish for. The bigger you get and the more options you have and some of the other phenomena that come with it. But on the whole, it it's just baruch Hashem really an amazing time. How many pizza stores? That's really all we care about. That's that's how you determine how big a community is, no? The year before we moved to Boca, we moved to Boca in '99, and I shouldn't say the year before, I think the month before we arrived is when the one pizza store in Boca, John's Place, the first pizza store, had opened up. And I wasn't here, it was a month before we came, but you know, supposedly the the parade and the pomp and circumstance and the celebration of the fact that like on the map there's like a kosher pizza store. And now Baruch Hashem, there's lots of lots of lots of options, milchigs and fleishigs and kosher markets and supermarkets and catering and fancy and sushi and you know, you name it, ice cream, multiple yogurts and ice cream and acai and anything and everything that you could be looking for. Beautiful. So, I wanted to talk a little bit about some of I mean, this this could almost be you know, from taken from maybe your Emunah series or you know, just in general from your shiur room. So, you know, we mentioned before, you mentioned before, you know, let's see how things turn out, how many Jews are going to be moving. You know, it's it's a very trying time for for for Jews, you know, in this country, around the world, since October 7th, everything is different. And it kind of just feels like I think we're all on edge. You know, and I think a lot of us turn to people like yourselves, Rabbanim, people who can give us a sense of making sense of the chaos that we're seeing around us. Uh when you look right now, so for example, we're from New York, I'm sure you you have an opinion about what's been going on, but how are we How do you feel? You know, what's your advice for Jews in general? Like let's say us in New York. We're all on edge, we're not You know, we're trying to have Emunah, but you know, sometimes you can have Emunah and things look like they're not so great. So, you know, us from New York, for example, what are your feelings? Yeah, you know, I think if we look back the last two years and and the last five years and the last two millennia, one thing that we've learned is the Jewish people play the long game, not the short game. And how many times in our history, and you could point to just over the last two years, where things were trending or we thought they were in a certain direction, and it turns out that they went in a very different one. And they are in charge. To be a person of faith, to live with them when it's to know that we do our utmost, we take our initiative, we make every effort we can, you know, take this election to lobby, to advocate, certainly to go vote, those eligible to go vote. We do everything we can to impact our future and destiny. But once we've done that, without fear or anxiousness, we let go and we let God. We surrender to you've got a plan, you're in charge. And we are in charge and he's controlling everything that's going to happen. So, you know, back up a little over two years ago and on October 6th, a couple years ago, if you would have said what's the biggest threat, you know, we partner with and we have visceral speakers and we're decently informed on Israel. And everyone then would have told you that is the minor threat. Hezbollah at the time had 150,000 rockets pointed at Israel and an organized army that can infiltrate through the northern border and the threat that Hezbollah um posed was far, far greater to Israel than even Hamas. And fast forward through those two years and the horrific tragedy of October 7th that none of us are grateful for and none of us would ask to have happened and none of us would have wanted to happen again, but the consequence somehow of the dark moment and the light that came afterwards was that the Hezbollah threat has essentially been neutralized and Hamas, don't want to overstate, but essentially has been neutralized. But some I I I ran that we were looking for a partner and who would rise to the occasion with us and what would be the moment and which which Israeli leader would have the courage to do what was necessary to go and to at least for a time neutralize that threat. Israel is safer than it's been in in in many years in many ways. And that's why we're living through right now really a tale of two worlds. It's the best of times and the worst of times both in terms of Israel and in terms of American Jewry. Both in Israel and for American Jewry you can point to a million reasons to be negative, pessimistic, hopeless or you could equally point to many reasons to have hope. And as troubling as as as disturbing as antisemitism is and I'm very proud our our neighbor and and dear friend Ben Shapiro with enormous courage put out a podcast to tackle and take on Tucker Carlson publicly which is not a simple thing to do because he's not only taking on him I was going there right after this comment. I was going to push back with that. So that that segment of the conservative right-wing party, mega party um it's really deeply disturbing of where that could be going. But but what this conversation has generated and even at the Heritage Foundation some of the resignations or some of the supporters who are threatening the people who've risen to stand with the Jewish people. And if you look through American history did we ever have a president who was so supportive of not only Israel but the Jewish people? Look what he did after after a previous term in which we were told there was nothing that could be done at Columbia, Yale, Harvard and the like NYU to protect Jews. Look what he did and he did it swiftly and quickly and he and he absolutely turned those things around. We have a speaker of the house and we have a large majority of our electorate and a large majority of the American people still stand with the Jewish people in Israel. So is there cause for alarm and concern? Absolutely. And as one of my friends in Boca whose house is for sale and advertised it with Prem Dan Danny pricing until now. You know, could things change enormously in New York for sure. Um and and we have to look at both. Both of our eyes have to be open. The eye that sees the good and the eye that sees that which is to be concerned about. We have to be watching and and see with both eyes. And when you look with both eyes, you get perspective. And the perspective that we should have is that there's a Rebono shel olam and he's waiting for us to be his partner to take the initiative that we have to take on behalf of the Jewish people to stand tall and proud and to be practicing and to do what we have to. And once we do, he's in charge and he's in control. So, you know, at the end of these two years, and we'll see what it could lead to, right? The Saudi Arabia king is coming to the White House this month. Could they be added to the Abraham Accords? In the in the midst of this war, when it all helped we felt that that it was hopeless, all of a sudden and almost seeming out of nowhere, this extraordinary deal was done to bring 20 living hostages home, to create a coalition of Arab states, to hopefully lead towards adding nations to the Abraham Accords, all without declaring hopefully a Palestinian state, neutralizing enemies surrounding Israel. And so there are there are things to be worried about, but there are equally and maybe more things to be grateful and excited about. And that's the way of Hashem, always after darkness there was light. And always after tragedy there was hope. And that's the way it's been for 2,000 years. And so my my biggest encouragement is to play the long game with our eyes open and and with cautious concern, but to play the long game and always invest, always go long on the Jewish people. So, here's you know, taking off on that, you know, there there are some there are some rabbin and there are people you know, who are saying this is something you you know, unique in this country. Uh you touched on it before that for the first time probably we have uh basically it has gone mainstream. Anti-Semitism has gone mainstream to the extent that you have Democrats and now Republicans. At least before Republicans were basically for the most part, you know, pro-Israel, pro-Jews, etc. Now, as you mentioned with Ben Shapiro taking on Tucker, I mean Tucker has been, you know, really really bad. But the Tucker himself doesn't bother me, it's the support that Tucker has. Uh the Heritage [clears throat] Foundation John Roberts who came out, you know, in support. He but all of that two-part question. Number one, you know, do you agree that this is this is, you know, something we've never seen in this country? Number two, do you think maybe, I mean, just maybe this is part of Hashem's plan? Is this the beginning of Hashem telling us that maybe America is not what you think? Maybe it's time to start thinking about relocation. I don't know, I'm just putting that out there. That's got to weigh on everyone's mind. I I hope we we talk often and encourage Aliyah. I struggle with it every day myself. I have two siblings, they both live in Israel. My parents spend half a year there. I have kids who are there. Um, and I struggle with it. It's where my heart is, it's where I want to be. I have a legitimate reason, I think, my wife and I believe right now to be here. There are legitimate reasons not to live in Israel. There's no legitimate reason not to be struggling with when to go to Israel. And without needing the extra push and shove to get us there, we should all be thinking about it. Is there a push and a shove? I I think for sure. You saw with Russian Jewry, Ethiopian Jewry, French Jewry. Um, in Europe, there are many countries. It's it's interesting that for many years we in America looked at our brothers and sisters in Europe and said, "What are they doing there? Yes. France. Were they crazy? Why are they staying? The writing's on the wall. And maybe now we've joined their ranks. Maybe they can ask that of us. The difference I'll say, and I'm not being, you know, I'm not being hopelessly optimistic. I'm a realist. But the difference is, as I said, we have a president and a speaker of the house and a secretary of state and and the majority of of Congress who fiercely stand by the Jewish people and by the state of Israel and the US-Israel relationship. And the polls of Americans, now younger ones, it's much much more concerning among the younger generation, but for now the majority still of Americans. So, there's a lot of work to be done. And the wonderful work, the people in the field who are doing it, the leaders of tomorrow, bringing people around. Um, the Democratic Party is not lost. There are some people who stand out. John Fetterman's, who I was among the cynical people throughout his campaign wondering how this guy in a hoodie and shorts, who was struggling to to string sentences together, could possibly be running for Senate. But that's why I say also about Hashem. Like get out of Hashem's way sometimes. Because when John Fetterman was running, many thought his opponent was very pro-Israel. John Fetterman, again, the way his appearance and and and how he spoke, there was a lot of reasons to be concerned. Hashem probably nobody nobody was doing John Fetterman where he did. There hasn't been a better friend to Israel or the Jewish people going against his own party with enormous courage and bravery to do so. So thank God Hashem didn't listen to those of us who didn't want to see him win. But Hashem he did it his way Hashem instead of instead of ours. And that's what I'm saying, sometimes get out of our our own way. But you have um you have um Torres, Congressman Torres in in in Riverdale from the Bronx, who describes himself as a a African-American Hispanic progressive gay perspective progressive, who is incredible in Israel. Our Congressman, Jared Moskowitz, who I disagree on many many many things, but on Israel, there's almost nobody better in Congress. So there still are within the Democratic ranks, there are people who are our friends and we should continue to be grateful publicly and privately to our friends, support them, and and and encourage others. If you write off a whole party, that's not going to do well. That's foolish foolish for us. And what we're seeing in the Republican party or what we're seeing in the MAGA, we're seeing the conservative movement is that there are really dangerous pernicious voices of hate, racism, and anti-Semitism. And they used to operate in the shadows and now they're uh brazenly coming out into the light. But as Justice Brandeis said, sunlight is the greatest disinfectant. So to a certain degree, I'm grateful cuz Tucker went from being on the fence and innuendo and suggestive to now aligning himself with outright bigots, racists, and anti-Semites. And sunlight's the greatest disinfectant. So you know, Ben started this conversation. I've seen been gaining traction over the last couple days. I hope that powerful influential people will weigh in and push back. And I hope that this debate within the Republican Party and conservative future will solidify with the correct voices, you know, winning. One thing that we can say is we did not see the equal debate in the other party um to confront the voices there, I think, as much as we're seeing it here. So, I I don't think Jews are Democrats or Republicans. I don't think we neatly fit into either. I think it's a matter of candidates. I think it's a matter of policies. I think it's a matter of time that we're living. And we'd be smart and we'd do well to know that Congress changes hands and the executive branch, the presidency changes hands. And if you align your see your future only with one party, then you're you're not going to have a seat at the table when the other one is in office. So, ultimately, Kadosh Baruch Hu is in charge. He's in control. We take our initiative. Don't get too anxious. Don't get too complacent. Don't be too happy when your person wins cuz it turns out they could stab you in the back. Don't get too depressed when the person you thought was going to be the worst wins. It turns out that's also somehow part of Hashem's master plan. You know, hishtavus, the Baal Shem Tov called it hishtavus, shivisi, is equanimity is don't get too high and don't get too low. Shaveh, it's all equal to me. And equanimity is, you know, I have a menuchas hanefesh. I live my life with trust in Hashem that it's all happening the way it's meant to happen. I just saw a great quote from the Bal Shem Tov Rebbe that said, "Don't be a warrior, be a warrior." Don't be a worrier, be a warrior. Take that worry and channel it and turn it into being a warrior for whatever cause it is that we're fighting for. So, I I think, if I understand you, um like there's this dichotomy almost between the support that we have in the government, which we know could flip at a second, any minute, like it could just completely turn around, uh but it is support for the Jewish people and for the state of Israel. But there's also this force of anti-Semitism at the same time. So, would you make aliyah in such a situation? Like, is it necessary? Is it Is it a push? Like, cuz on the one side we see so much support in government, but on the other hand we see like a lot of anti-semitism. We see a lot of anti-semitism. We see a record anti-semitism. I personally don't believe that you should go to Israel cuz you're running away. I think you should be running towards. Because whatever you're concerned or afraid about here, for our brothers and sisters who spent a good part of 2 years running into bomb shelters, and we're talking 8, 9, 10 million people. Soldiers were on the front lines, our heroic excuse me, incredible idea of soldiers, they were on the front lines, but all of Israel was the front lines. I don't care what kind of yarmulke you wear or no yarmulke, you were running at the bomb shelters the night Iran was sending ballistic missiles. So, if you're going to Israel cuz you think it's safer and you're running away from something, you know, be prepared to be in bomb shelters. So, that's not to me a reason to go. You should go because that's the Jewish destiny, that's our homeland, that's the promise from Hashem, that's ultimately where we belong, that's the place that geulah is going to unfold. Be running towards, not running away. And I don't know yet that it's time to to close the book on America. I I don't know that we've reached our peak and that it's that it's all over. There have been bumps in the road before and there have been struggles before and we've had difficult periods before and and we'll see where where comes next. Will those voices, the extreme voices, will they be marginalized? Will they be silenced? Will we not tolerate them? And I And I hope that that's what we're going to see. Well, how much of it How much How much of it is because, you know, there's Jews in the news and there is Israel's in the news every day and there's so much attention to this war? Like, pre-October 7th, we didn't have this level of hate because we just weren't We were out of sight, out of mind. I I actually push back on that, respectfully, and I would say that it was all there, but it was beneath the surface. And it was waiting for the right moment and the right opportunity. Now, who is the it and where was it and why did it surface now? It's also clear when you saw on October 8th Times Square filled with rallies that were anti-Israel and Israel had not gone into Gaza yet. Not one innocent civilian was killed. There wasn't one baby killed. There wasn't one hospital attacked. Israel had not yet begun its war and there were already rallies. It was well coordinated. This has already been shown. It was well funded and it was well coordinated and was well waiting for that right moment. So, a lot of that energy and that negativity has always been there. It was waiting for a time that it could come up. We were spoiled. In the aftermath of the Holocaust, the world had rahmanus on us for a little bit and we thought this is a new reality. Now they finally accept us, respect us, um maybe even fear us and uh and it's a new reality, but it's not this 2-year period or the anti-Semitism we're seeing right now. This is not the aberration of history. This is the norm. This is the norm. The last 75 years, that was the exception. So, we've just gone to back to the default. We're going back to the norm, but I don't think we're going all the way back to that norm. I don't think it's time yet to write off America. The polls don't show it. The leadership of people in positions of power don't show it and the voices that are expressing a lot of the anti-Semitism and I think this is part of our winning argument that we have to make. They don't hate Jews. They hate America. They hate what America stands for and they're scapegoating and they're pointing a finger particularly at Jews. This The extreme voices supposedly within the MAGA movement, the the America First movement, they don't even love America and what America stands for and it's dangerous their beliefs. We haven't made this point. If Tucker Carlson or Dave Smith or some of these other people were president of America, they wouldn't be prepared to win a war on behalf of ourselves and our children. They wouldn't defend us cuz they've now changed the whole definition of war. There can't be innocent civilians, proportionality, all the positions they've taken about how Israel has executed its war in in Gaza. I would never want the people who believe that to be in charge of me and my family. God forbid a billion times our children were kidnapped or were held hostage, they're not willing to do what it takes to get them back, to fight until the end. And that's what we should be telling regular Americans that if Canada or Mexico invade, these people and their policies are not prepared to do what's necessary for America to win. That's not America first, that's America last, that's America stupid. And that's not anti-Israel and anti-Semitic, that's anti-American many of these sentiments. And so I'm I'm still very hopeful that these voices will be seen as extremist, they'll be marginalized and ultimately silenced, and that we can win back. And the poll show the majority of Americans, who I hope are decent moral people. Well, I know Ben Shapiro is definitely trying to get that done. I mean, I I did listen to his whole thing about Tucker. And it's it is it's brave and it's it's just out there. He really calls him out and he and with clips and everything. I I just don't know if he's enough of a voice by himself. When Tucker, I'll tell you this, Tucker interviewed Nick Fuentes last week and it had 17 million views as of yesterday. And what Ben put out yesterday is at like 20-something million views. Because there's a groundswell within the conservative world and the MAGA movement who are so grateful that someone's had the courage to stand up and to say what needs to be said. And hopefully, hopefully it will bring begin a a momentum and a charge. We'll see whether others have the courage, too. It's we're living in a dangerous time where people are putting their own And this is why it's important to appreciate the courage it took of Ben. People are putting their own pocketbook first. And I don't want to call out other media personalities, but even those who are friendly and supportive and loyal to the Jewish people, but they're not ready to marginalize Tucker because of Tucker's viewership, because of the numbers. And they're worried if they take him on and Tucker turns on them, how will that impact their pocketbook? How will that impact their viewership? And it takes courage. That was a risk Ben took. And for all those watching who think, "Oh, that was obvious and that was easy and that's a no-brainer anyway. Where's the yarmulke? He's a Jew." When you have to say what has to be said, you sit and dive in over whether to do that or not. What are the implications? What will be the fierce pushback that he's going to have coming at him? And let's also remember we're we're living a couple months after Charlie Kirk was assassinated for his views. But It takes courage for Ben to appear in public. Assassinated by Israel, as they say. Yeah, exactly. >> As Tucker implied at at his funeral. I don't think he meant Israelis, yeah. So, speaking about Ben Shapiro on on this whole thing, you maybe you have more insight. You clearly do have more insight than we do into what's been going on behind the scenes. And not to make this about Ben Shapiro, but uh that the the the episode that he released on Tucker was really weird. There would no ads whatsoever. There was no intro. There was no outro. It was almost like a sheer. He came in. He said his thing. And it was off. And I was like, "Okay, so you're smiling now. Listeners can't see that you're you're smirking right now." I'm saying that that made a statement. >> right? Yeah, that made a statement. You noticed that. That That was a shabbos shuva drasha and not a regular sheer. That was a pure quality, not the shiur yomi. That was And And again, you know, I I certainly don't speak on his on his behalf. Um but I yeah, I think it it was very carefully crafted and uh released. And um and it was critically important and and I'm grateful that it's being received that way and I hope the voice is going to be bolstered and I hope it will it will resound far and wide. Well, one of the rumors is that uh and again, this is not a lashon hara or whatever, is that inside the Daily Wire itself, there's some machlokes over there. Um there's been a lot of calls against Matt Walsh. You know, I used to listen to Matt Walsh and then I I jumped ship because I said, you know, I don't you know, famously on this podcast, you know, way before Tucker actually came out of as being an open anti-Semite, I had called him out. You know, and my co-host here, you know, pushed back on me, "Zack, you call him an anti-Semite?" I said, "Something's Something's wrong here." I kind of started feeling that way about Matt Walsh. And obviously when he had Candace, we were you know, we were up in arms at that time. Like, what is going on here? And I I start to wonder, is there is there some Shalom bias problems there? There could be again, I don't I don't speak for him and I don't know everything. I don't know anything that's going on internally there. I will tell you that there's you know, the the statement that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and the impact of we live in a in an age and a time that we celebrate being an influencer and having influence, having listeners, right? Here you have your podcast and and I have mine and we're grateful that we're trying to bring certain messages out there to the public. I don't think we make our livelihoods off of it, so it's it's very different and I'm certainly not looking to retire on it or from it. Um but these people are and their whole in many cases self-worth and identity is tied to how many listeners and what they can sell their advertising for and right now in certain segments of America, this is what sells. It sells because the people who agree and it sells because of the people who vehemently disagree but but have to listen because of how much they disagree and the more clicks and the more listens and the more they can charge the advertisers and the more they rank on their lists. They're not on the Jewish podcast lists. Hold on a second. I'm still very hopeful for Kiddish Club. I I don't know. I just wanted to put that out there. I think I think we can do it. >> Kiddish Club is all the way. I heard that Joe Rogan's very afraid that Kiddish Club is [laughter] climbing the charts and Tim going to take him over. He's not the only one. Yeah, he's not the only one and he should he should definitely watch his back. I I I I agree. Um so I think it's very tempting for them to sort of flirt with satisfying that audience. How many people can you pick up if you go a little bit in that direction? I don't know how much they people believe it internally. You know, how can a Megan Kelly who on the one hand when Charlie Kirk is assassinated, have a whole tearful tribute to Ben Shapiro, her friend, and how tragic it is that he has to worry for his life. Jews should be safe. And then defend Tucker Carlson. Right. Where where where is Megyn? Where where are all these other people? So, hopefully the tide will change, and hopefully there'll be a a shift, and hopefully sunlight will be that disinfectant to be able to reveal where people are. But do you think maybe we take these talking heads a little too serious? Like they Like you said, they have they're business-minded. They're thinking about views and clicks and advertisers. They're not really thinking necessarily about the the complete truth. That doesn't matter to them as much as viewership does. So, why are we taking them so seriously, and why are we getting so afraid when Look, it's clear, I think, that Tucker made this move not because he really believes it necessarily, but that's where the money leads. That's Look, we we know he's getting money from Qatar. Like it This is the business move for him as opposed to uh what he really maybe internally believes. And I'm not excusing it because it's dangerous, and you know, the entire America all all of his viewership, they're like sheep, and they'll they'll do whatever he says to do. Uh but in essence, I think that the it's just not real. So much of it is not real. I couldn't agree with you more. I don't think what we should do take I don't think we take what they say seriously, but we should take their influence seriously. So, it is sobering, and it's a reminder to us, and it's equally true, by the way, in many cases of Jewish media and Jewish influencers, that just because someone has a microphone and an internet connection doesn't make them an authority. Doesn't make them right or righteous. Doesn't mean that we should believe what they're saying hook, line, and sinker. Excluding both of our shows. Excluding both of our shows. Agreed. Of course, that's a given. Excluding both of our shows. But but I think that's a danger. We could talk about that, too, cuz I don't know that in our community we're doing a good enough job monitoring that. Where there are a lot of young people within the Torah from community who want to grow up to be influencers and want to be go viral on Instagram or podcasts and and and what that means and what responsibility it takes and what responsibility is on the consumer of those media and platforms to be much more judicious and careful with what we expose ourselves to, what we consume, what our children have access to and consume, who speaks with authority and who, you know, sitting in front of their steering wheel with an internet connection and a and a phone are pontificating their thoughts but with no authority whatsoever. I think there's a conversation to be had that's not being had within the firm world and the Torah community, too. But certainly when it comes to the general world, 100% they don't speak with authority and we shouldn't listen or believe. This Dave Smith who who whatever level comedian he was has this newborn again career being against Israel and now he's invited everywhere. He's no he he he's no authority. He has no knowledge. He's ignorant, but he's really good at debating and he's excellent at taking people on and the great Douglas Murray, who's amazing, ended up not faring well because he has all the authority and he's been on the ground and he knows the facts and he's a brilliant mind, but it's a different skill set sometimes to, you know, to to sit across and to and to debate. So, it's not what they're saying that we should take seriously, but it's the impact and influence they're having that we should take seriously because that changes elections. It changes policies. It it it it changes um some realities on the ground that should be of of a lot of concern for us. But the question is is is are we not doing enough? Like if we if we're saying that these influencers are following the money, is it possible that we're not doing enough on that end to make it profitable to be pro-Israel? So, that's a that's That's question. That's a great question. Um Cuz it can be done. We can do it as a community if there was a way. No, but think about it. Think about the scandal of last month that somebody said that Israel was paying $7,000 to influencers. That was the link. So, that that was directly making it profitable, you know. They're still saying it. Yeah, so But it's not true. But imagine if it was true. What would be like first of all, why we so ashamed if it's true? Cuz we know Qatar is doing it. Right. >> We know other entities, other NGOs are doing this. It's not even a question. And what are we waiting for? I don't know if we need to. We're waiting for our checks. Where are our checks? >> [laughter] >> We've We've got volume. We We've got numbers. Evangelical Christians are an enormous enormous number. Question is how do you tap into them? Right? They have to be tapped into and and they have to grow and Right. And the only one who has their ear is really Ben. Right, Ben. There are a few others and and they're doing a good job and we should be We should be grateful to those people. I think we need to do better to reward and bolster the people who are getting it right to make their their voices resonate further. You know, when it comes to Tucker I'll ask you this question and then I'll tell you a story that I haven't said anywhere publicly because I don't want to look like I'm somehow flexing or it's about me. But I'll ask it to you as a question. If you could send Tucker Carlson a text today what would you text him? Wow. >> Personally, I would write momzer and then leave [laughter] it. Just that? Exclamation Exclamation point or not? For sure exclamation point. I would leave the coherent thoughts to my co-host. >> [laughter] >> Well, what would you text him? Would you try to turn him around? Would you just try to rip him to shreds? Would you try to appeal to his conscience and soul if there's any part of it left? Would you Would you try to make him how he wants to be thought of in history and what's his legacy? If you could write one text to Tucker Carlson, what would you say? It's a great question. It's a great question. I I I never even uh you know, thought about it. Uh but I I think yeah, I think it would I would personally try to appeal to his soul and say something like uh you know at [snorts] the end of day you're a religious person, you say you're a religious person, and regardless of what you believe uh whether what you're doing is right or wrong, if you look at the outcome of of the things you're doing in America, you'd be hard-pressed to say that you're doing something positive and net positive in this country. Is that how you want to be remembered? But what wouldn't he say back? What I'm doing is a big net positive. I'm standing up for Christians. I'm putting America I'm actually doing an enormous net I'm the I'm on the front lines of taking care of America while you're letting America sell out to Israel and other foreign nations while you're letting churches in Gaza be bombed and Christians be killed. Uh the enormous net positive of I'm not going to do it, who will? So, I mean it it it's hard, you know, because it I I I mean I wish I could have that conversation because I could throw out, you know, according to United States government statistics themselves and research, I think it was Raytheon, uh the Israel the research that America has received uh from Israel uh based on I mean the F-35, the only time it's ever been used in combat is by Israel. That data all goes to America. It has saved them upwards of 70 billion dollars of research time. So, there is a net positive to having Israel as a as an ally. But yeah, I don't think that would work with him. I think, you know, the truth I don't know. I don't know I don't know if he really cares. I don't know if he is doing this just purely for the money because he's clearly doing very well with it and he's if he he's just leaning into it. I don't know. What would you What would you send? What would you send, Rabbi? So, I I have a theory and and it's conjecture and it has zero basis whatsoever, but I think in cases like Tucker, I wonder I wonder I I don't think it's the money. He was an extraordinary wealthy person before this. Um and and obviously Oif Kisef is bekisef, you know, you can never have enough money and I'm sure it's tempting whatever Qatar is allegedly um uh paying him, but I don't I don't know that it's the money cuz I don't I don't think that difference of money is changing his lifestyle that he already had. Um I don't think it's the money. And I actually don't even think it's policy. I wonder whether his exit at Fox News somehow he blames on Jewish ownership of Fox or Jewish leadership at Fox. I think some people who turn on Jews, it's not about ideology or theology and it's not about money. It's about some personal pain, bad negative experience. You see this because some anti-Semites had a bad business deal with a Jew who wasn't honest with them or waited too long they think at a doctor's office where that Jewish doctor took advantage of them or whatever the negative experience, I think and I'm not explaining, justifying, or excusing, of course, not for one second. But I wonder if we had that insight, we'd know a little bit more what we can do to try to win somebody back or somebody over. I also wonder whether early on in in Tucker's move towards this, he was labeled too quickly by people that he just embraced that label and went all in. And whether there were an opportunity of instead of pushing him across that line, he could have still been pulled back. He's across the line. There's no question he's across the line now. I mean, you can't host Nick Fuentes Fuentes and not be across the line. He's far across the line, but as he was teetering on the line, did we push him over it or could we have pulled him back from it? I don't know. But all this is so completely anti-American. Like those thoughts, that thought process, the fact that you have a personal vendetta with perhaps a Jew or a group of Jews, and then that's your stance on Israel now because of that experience, that's not American. No, but you're you're expressing logic. And and if this is an emotional anti-Semitism, then it's not logic. It defies logic. And and you're able to convince yourself of of anything. So, if you have that negative experience and now you project that on the whole Jewish people and by extension all of Israel, and now you blame them for everything. Now, to be clear, Tucker's fundamental viewpoint, as as warped as I think it is, is legitimate, right? America first, and therefore don't give foreign aid to any country, and therefore don't intercede on any conflicts, and therefore I think it's warped and distorted and and and and short-sighted. Short-sighted, but it's legitimate as long as you apply it equally. When you have that viewpoint and then you obsess over one country about it, that's when it's anti-Semitic. So, the viewpoint itself is, in my opinion, wrong, but not fundamentally evil. It's is application of that viewpoint obsessively about one particular country and not others, and that's the definition of anti-Semitism, holding a country to a different standard, and when it's Israel, it's not anti-Israel, it's anti-Semitism. I want to switch gears for a second. Uh I wanted to go a little bit into I mean we're we're skirting around uh an issue that the rabbi mentioned in the beginning, which is really emunah. And I think uh you know, a lot of I famously on on our podcast I talk about the fact that uh you know, I'm a worrier. I'm the classic Jewish worrier, anxiety, things like that. Uh so, I think, you know, emunah I think would probably be if I had to guess, and Rabbi, you could tell us a lot better. Emunah is probably one of the biggest uh I guess trials or or nisyanos that we have right now. Uh and I actually wanted to see if you agree with that, and then I'm going to follow up because I want to ask you about something you recently said that I was listening to with my wife, and I wanted to get uh a little bit more of the details on it. But so, that's question one, and then I'll follow it up. Well, I I I would agree, but I would tweak it a little bit. Not that emunah is the biggest trial, but emunah is more needed than ever, and therefore having it is harder than ever. With the with the absolute proliferation of mental health challenges, it's harder that to be alive is to have anxiety today. If you don't have anxiety, you might need to see a doctor to figure out why because to live today with everything going on around us and not feel a little anxious. Every day that we wake up, there's something that is happening or happened that nobody saw coming. That that like we can't believe. And and that leads to anxiousness. So, first of all, I think it's clear to define our terms. When we're talking about clinical anxiety, no one's to blame, there's no judgment of it. Therapy, medication, emunah is not the only answer. It can be part of it, but there should be no shame and no guilt and no stigma around getting the help you need for clinical anxiety. If we're talking about just the Jewish anxiety of being alive, of being awake, then I think we're living in more anxious times. I don't want to say than ever, but certainly incredibly anxious times. So, the need for emunah, whether it's emunah in avoiding envy and jealousy of the people around us in this time of great great um prosperity. So many people have so many things and you wonder why don't I have them. Why don't I have that car in my driveway? Why aren't I doing the addition to my house? Why aren't I on that vacation? Why didn't I go out to dinner for that golden steak? Why aren't I and the envy and jealousy that also are so easy to feel and have to Why don't I have so many followers? Why don't I have such influence? Why don't I It's so easy to feel. So, emunah may be one of the hardest tests, but the reason I think it's a very hard test right now is because we need it more than ever. People are reaching for it more than ever and we haven't been educated about it. You can go through the classic Yeshiva system and you know the law of the Ten Commandments and you know muktzeh and you know brachos and you know kashrus and you've covered a certain amount of blood of Gemara, but has anyone ever talked to you about your relationship with Hashem? How to talk to him, how to hear him talking to you, how to lean on him, how to how to surrender to him, how to embrace your place, how to let go and let God, how how to really be in a genuine relationship. You talk a lot about the shepherd, but does anyone help us know the shepherd and feel the shepherd's presence and love? So, I think we need it now as much or more than ever, but we're not empowered. We don't have the tools and the vocabulary and we haven't necessarily been trained and a lot of people are trying to find it and figure it out now at a later stage and I think that's very very important in our educational system to start bringing it to young people and we can't bring it to young people till their themselves feel it and live it and speak it. So, that's the first step towards that, but that's a much bigger ambition. So, uh it reminds me to So, there was a you had something on one of your recent uh Shmuel podcast. I don't remember which one I was listening to, but I'm sure the rabbi will remember. There was a a letter that you received and it was from someone who was basically calling out Hashem. Like, Hashem, I'm angry at you. You did all these horrible things and I'm done. And you had said something. I was pretty surprised when I heard it cuz I wasn't expecting it. And you said something that essentially was and you looked at it in a very in a very positive light saying it shows that this person has a relationship with Hashem to begin with because you can only get that angry with somebody if you actually have a relationship with them. You know what I'm talking about, right? >> what you're talking about. I actually published it as an article yesterday. So, you could find you could read the letter, you could read my response to the letter and you could read my analysis about it and my evidence, I think, for my position about it. Um I wholeheartedly believe it and I don't take credit for this insight. Many years ago when I was assistant rabbi, I was a young rabbi, um I was doing a funeral for a mother of one of our members. I didn't know her and I met with the family to try to learn more about her. And one of the questions I'll typically ask is what was her relationship with Hashem? What was her relationship with Judaism? And the son-in-law paused. He sat and he thought for a moment and he said he said, you know, my mother-in-law, she wasn't she wasn't observant. She wasn't practicing. But she had tremendous faith. I said, what do you mean? He said, she was a Holocaust survivor, and she spent her entire life being angry at God." And he looked at me and he said, "And you're not angry at someone that you don't believe exists." And that opened my eyes to this idea and to this notion that sometimes it's the very people who sound like or look like they're expressing the greatest heresy that are in fact expressing the greatest faith. Because and I'm not encouraging it. I'm not saying this should be on our checklist or one of our goals. Let's all get angry at God. Let's be frustrated at God. Let's scream at God. But what I'm saying is I deal with people in a lot of crisis and suffering. They've gotten a diagnosis. Their children, their parent or or or infertility or loneliness. They're waiting to meet their besher. And they they feel a feeling of like where is Hashem and why is Hashem and for a moment. And in that moment some are racked by guilt. How can I feel this way? I'm ashamed to feel this way. Everything Hashem does is for the best. I guess I should be happy that I'm dying. I should be happy that I'm alone. I should be happy I have no children. I should be happy. And nowhere does the Torah tell them to feel that way. They can channel that frustration. Avinu Shebashamayim, he's our father. And all of tefillah is a protest. And the evidence is this week's parsha. I don't know when this is airing, but in Vayeira when Avram takes on Hashem over Sodom. Why didn't Avram say, "Listen, you're the omnipotent you're the infinite God. You do you. I'm not getting in your way. If you say you have to worry about Sodom and Amora, go for it. I'm not getting in your way." Instead he says, "Okay, Kadosh Baruch Hu. Now, you're the just benevolent God and this isn't just and benevolent. I'm protesting. This isn't right. 50 45 40 30 20." And and he's not the only one. Yona, Iyov, Yirmiyahu. We have throughout Tanakh people who turn to Hashem. And now that Here's the key. You can't do it as an excuse to walk away from Hashem. But if you're doing it to bring yourself closer to Hashem. So, there are people who daven three times a day and they shuckle and they wear a hat and jacket and a gartel and they daven with the bottom of their heart and they zog all tehillim and they've never had a one real conversation with God. And the person who points a finger with anger at God is having the most raw and real authentic conversation. Evidence that they believe whatever they're going through in life, right? Because there are people who shuckle and daven hard, but they don't really believe God's connected to their next client or customer or paycheck or business. They daven, they do the daven, they do what they're supposed to do, but does it really correlate to really feeling and knowing and believing whatever is happening in my life? The plane was delayed, that was Hashem. I'm sitting in traffic, that's Hashem. The deal went through or it didn't go through, that's Hashem. A lot of people, they checklist their Judaism, but does it lead to a meaningful dynamic relationship? No. And somebody who's struggling and who's angry at God is is understands that whatever they're going through, they're crediting him. Is that not Emunah? To realize that whatever's happening in your life comes from him? To even then channel that frustration, that protest to Hashem? So, the key is to then come close to Hashem. In the article, I quote Elie Wiesel says, Elie Wiesel said that when he was in Auschwitz, he once saw a group of inmates put God on trial. And they put God on trial, and he said at the conclusion, these inmates found God guilty. And then one of them looked outside and said, "It's almost Shkiah, they gave a clap, it's time for Mincha." And that was the image. He later wrote a play about it, Wiesel. But that image of God on trial, he's guilty, give a clap, it's time for Mincha. The guy who wrote me that letter, it was originally anonymous and then he revealed himself to me. He came to shul on Yom Kippur. The fact that he came to shul anyway on Yom Kippur, I thought, "Okay, it's Yom Kippur." But I saw him in the morning after in shul, tallis and tfillin, still davening. That letter reflects the raw emotion of how he's feeling, what he's going through inside, but he never stopped davening once. Hashem is on trial, but he gave a clap, it's time for Mincha. So, we can have those feelings, and they're an incredible cry of Emunah. Like, you're my father, how could you? You're not disappointed when the stranger in the street didn't help you. But if your own father could have helped you and he didn't, you say, "Where are you?" And that's not cuz you're pushing him away, that's cuz you're trying to draw him closer. I love you, you're my father. I count on you. Where are you? So again, I'm not encouraging it. I'm not saying that you are a failure of a Muna if you've never been angry at Hashem. I'm not setting it as a goal for us all, but let's take away the shame and the guilt with it and instead realize it for what it is, a raw real raw expression of Amuna. Hopefully, that can propel a person closer and further instead of pushing them away. I have a question on that story that you just mentioned and I'm sorry to put you on the spot with this, but with Avram Avinu uh and Sedom, he petitioned Hashem, "Save this city." But you see in so many other stories in the same situation, like during the time of the flood, like during the time of Dor Haflagah, even the story of Yona that you mentioned, Hashem makes an attempt to have those people try and do chuva. He tries to get Yona to get the city of Ninveh to to do repentance. Even uh Noah, he's he's he's sent to build the teiva for 120 years so that that generation should do chuva. It doesn't work. Even by the Dor Haflagah, they're rebelling and Hashem takes action by changing their language and saving them. What's the difference by Sedom that there was no attempt made at all? To redeem the people? To redeem the people, to save them, to help them do chuva, something. Yeah, it's a good question. I think that there was an assumption. That's what Hashem came to tell Avram is that they were irredeemable. They had so crossed that line and that boundary that they were irredeemable. That the society itself, and this can relate a little bit, I'm not calling for the carpet bombing, God forbid, of Gaza or are there innocent civilians, but sometimes, I'm asking it as a question, I'm not making a statement, sometimes there are societies that can become so corrupt that there needs to be a reboot and a reset. Um and it seems that Hashem decided that about Sodom. So, Avram does advocate for them. And Avram's not only advocating for the 50 tzadikim down to the 10, he's advocating that on behalf of the 50 tzadikim you should save the whole city or the whole five cities. You should save them all. So, Avram does advocate for them. He doesn't directly try to get them to repent, which is your question. Another question that people raise in our parashah is sort of the stira. When it comes to Sodom, Avram protests Hashem and says, "How could you?" Then Hashem says, "Take your son and slaughter him." And he says, "Okay." Where was Avram's protest when it came to Akedah of Yitzchak? Why did he protest for Sodom? And when it came to his own Yitzchak, he says, "Okay. Where's the mountain? Which knife? No problem." That's another question that people raise. Well, that I can understand because it's maybe perhaps like a re'ach nicho'ach. It's It's It's That is service to Hashem. So, that could perhaps have its own its own purpose. But, I think by Sodom it was maybe that it wasn't that they were wicked out of weakness. It was that they were wicked out of a shita. That was what It's their responsibility to hold this wickedness. That's how they felt perhaps. If you're trying to come in as a guest to our city, you're trying to take what we have, what Hashem has allotted for us, your bed, and we're going to go against you. >> Yeah, I think you're right. And if you expand that out, I mean, just nowhere does the Torah say try to reform Amalek. Like, give Amalek the Bible codes and take him to a discovery seminar and bring Amalek back. Like, whether it's the literal genetic descendants of Amalek or the ideology of Amalek, the idea is that there are people who are so corrupt to their core that they become irredeemable. Which is the But, we're not But, we're not saying that about Gaza. I'm not saying that. I'm not prepared to not say that. I'm not prepared to say that. I will tell you this, I don't know if you read Elisha Rabbi's new book about being held hostage. No. We've seen it there. We haven't read it though. Very powerful book. And it's it's it's it's a very difficult read. So, I don't want to say it's an easy read, but it's a short read in the sense that, you know, it's you could read it over one Shabbos. I read it over When did I read it over Yontif? Um What he tells in there that really startled me is both when he was taken captive to begin with and then later when he was moved between houses and tunnels Hamas went from being his evil captors to being his protectors because the civilians on the street would have torn him to shreds and killed him on the spot. So, when he was first kidnapped in the Gaza, Hamas were protecting him from the civilians and when he was changed locations two or three or four times, they would surround him and walk with him and disguise him because if the average civilian would have recognized him, they would have killed him. Wow. >> And when you hear that, these are the civilians of Gaza. Civilian First of all, he describes what it's like to switch from these being your captors whom you hate to your protectors who you're relying on, back into your captors who you hate and and the mind game that that plays with you. He describes that so powerful. But, what I also took out of it was again, this conversation, are there innocent civilians? How many innocent civilians? Where are the innocent civilians? There was a poll taken um I I think it was a poll in Yehuda v'Shomron, not in Gaza, but also Gaza maybe that said, "Who do you want to rule Gaza?" And so-called Palestinians said, "We want an international force, but Hamas has to be represented." Well, how could you be innocent civilians if you're still advocating for Hamas to be represented in leadership? I think the most profound thing about that entire story of these hostages is that there was, I think, by and large, most of them that were held captive for hundreds of days have more or less become more religious from the experience, which is so crazy when you think about it. >> true? Yeah, there are countless images of putting on tefillin, of shaking the lulav, of sitting in the sukkah, of making in bracha, of of having found Hashem where they were. You'd think it'd be the exact opposite. Where was God? How could God? Right. I'm done. I'm done with this whole situation. I'm leaving Israel and I'm just going to move somewhere in Greece and never look back. Right. And it's the opposite. It's crazy to me. So, first of all, we didn't we didn't get the answer on why didn't Avraham Avinu fight back? Why didn't he protest? And by the way, I love that line that tefillah is a protest. It's it's such a paradigm shift. >> what's a misheberach for cholim? You've determined Hashem someone should be sick. That's their best interest, but I'm protesting. I disagree. In the end, we'll accept your way. You're the infinite omnipotent. You know what's best. But what why daven? Meaning if if you're not allowed to protest Hashem, then why would you ever daven? You're asking Hashem misheberach for cholim. You're davening for someone to get married. You're davening for someone to have a child. You're davening for parnassah. You're getting a bracha for those things. What are those These are all protests to Hashem the way it is. Please change it. Right. No, amazing. But what was the answer to why didn't Avraham Avinu Oh, yeah. We got to We got to keep you wanting more. Can't you [laughter] know? Can't spill all the beans yet. Can't spill all the Listen, like like all kiddush clubs, they have to come to an end at some point. >> [laughter] >> Like all kiddush clubs, there's somebody waiting for you. We're taking up a lot of your time. We apologize and and we thank you for giving us so much time. My pleasure. Are you going to get any pushback? I mean, you're a rav of a shul. You're not allowed to be in kiddush clubs. And here you are. I mean, >> point. You know what I mean? This is not So, maybe we're going to we'll change your voice voice. We'll disguise your voice. We'll write, you know, a different name. No one will know. This is one kiddush club I'd love to hang out all day. It's great. And a big shout out to my sister-in-law Rachel who is a big fan of kiddush clubs. So, she's a she really enjoys among your many listeners on your way climbing the charts. >> [laughter] >> We're taking down Rogan. Rogan, we're watching you. Rabbi, thank you so much for your time. This was really amazing. As amazing as we thought it would be and we're going to keep listening. I'm already on Amazon getting the Hostage by Ellie Shirazi. Going to make sure to get that in and again we really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for having me and thank you for your conversations about Torah and leadership and the impact that it's having. Thank you Rabbi. Thanks so much. And we thank you guys for listening. Don't forget to join the WhatsApp group. You can do that either from the show notes or visit us at kiddishclubpodcast.com. Follow us on X, follow us on Instagram >> [music] >> and don't forget to support the cast by visiting buymeacoffee.com/kiddishclub. Show your support for the cast and until next time Kiddish Club out. And this episode is copyright Kiddish Club Media.