04-30-2014 STAR-K DiscussesToveling Electric Utensils

hello and welcome to starkey's monthly webinar we're here in the Starkey headquarters in Baltimore Maryland to my right is Rabbi fire thank you for joining us again my pleasure I'm Robert C Goldberg we're here the last Wednesday of every month at noon Eastern and uh the web address to join us is learn kosher Dot clickwebinar.com forward slash kosher and you can sign up for our emails to see the topic and to see the uh all the information we have you go to our website star Dash k.org and sign up for our alerts and uh we'll get you right in there if you want to call us by phone it's 218 95-1203 that's 218-895-1203 uh if we could have a um some chatting on the bottom of your screen to let us know that you can hear us and that we are coming through that would be really appreciated um we'd like to hear from you you can chat uh at any time and we'll hopefully get to your questions okay Amy Says can hear you Susie great okay thanks I took a look before to see where people are listening from um a lot from the United States as you might expect but also from Heritage Israel timing is good seven o'clock okay um and Europe as well someone's listening in Europe some people yeah I've done yeah how is it there depend Where You Are uh maybe in the afternoon um okay well we thank you for joining us and I want to mention that if you want to see The Archives of previous classes they are on our website at kosherclasses.org or we have a Vimeo and YouTube channel now you can search on those for star k and you'll get all the more webinars than you thank you right we've been doing this for about eight years already buyer so so multiply that by 12. there's at least a hundred and more probably you should put it all on a DVD and like yep we should sell it 29.90 yeah 99 Cents um uh all proceeds okay so uh we're going to discuss uh today the last cautious cars the most cautious currents which is our quarterly uh Flagship magazine and that's also available on our website star dashk.org there are a number of very good articles on visual akum on on cooking and how that can be done in a way that meets all the the kosher standards and so on but the article I want to focus on surprisingly Rabbi buyer yes is the one that I guess I know the most about because I wrote it it's um it's here in the article it's called getting into hot water urns and pump parts in so um yeah so it's about it's about toefling or immersing your electric utensils your pump pots let's take a step back and just give some quick background uh the Torah requires that the person who buys a a utensil made of certain types of materials well we're not going to get into all those details generally metal generally Metals right oh yeah all right need to immerse it before you personally in the mic for in a ritual I guess a ritual bath is the way they translate it uh completely all at one time and that brings the The Vessel into its proper uh status holy status um is that enough of a synopsis I guess I guess so um okay if they come from a non-jewish source Josh is saying yes I I can't wait does it have to be a special if it's both from if you buy it let's say it's created you go to Israel let's say and you buy a uh a kiddish cup a silver cup which is made in Israel right which is crafted not China I think that's right exactly which is crafted there uh by by a Jewish company uh by Jews then it doesn't require the tequila but yes you have to know what not always is what you buy and this is not necessarily Mayfair I had a um I I had a knife a hollow knife The Cutting on job is the the bread um and uh and I read on it made in England there you go right that was created in England it was it was a famous brand yeah it was it was a famous print so you have to know that where where it's coming from I was going to ask does the ritual bath the club could it be any midfla does it have to be special for this kind of immersion um it's anyone that's available I mean usually what they do is that you don't want to take the make for that people go into and also unless your utensils in there people even though they're new but some you know they're so as well the people being immersing people not not the utensil people being immersing not the utensils being immersive right or the people you know what I mean right but another problem is sometimes people immerse glass also needs to be immersed right and and and that it could break it was once said you remember there was a there was a mixer here in Baltimore that for years had uh in front of it a a case showing that there was a glass utensil that was found at the bottom of the Mikvah that was broken and someone left it there and they were showing you this is dangerous you got to be careful so therefore in many communities like in Baltimore in New York um even in uh when I lived for a while in San Jose and so there's there's a separate Calum Mikvah that is make for adjust for emergency utensils so that there's no it's it would be kosher for a person too it's a little a little small small to get in there and it's not heated so it's not so comfortable it would but logically from the Jewish you know perspective it's the same thing okay so um so let's let's Jump Right In uh the topic as we as we as we presented it on the email was do you need to immerse your electric utensils at all maybe not only to immerse them because they're Electric and why would I think well here I think here's a question from d uh I have a sandwich maker I've yet to use because I'm afraid to Total it what if it breaks or or if it electrocutes me when I plug it in oh let your kids get in it's my number one fear of you're on camera being recorded it's my number one fear of fulfilling this Mitzvah help okay the answer is the short answer is that um the short answer is that yes you do need to immerse your electric utensils and no it will not uh electrically it will not electrocute if you do it in the right way so let's get this let's do the safety I think it has to be plugged in in order to electrocate you no she means when to use it afterwards she's going to get hurt because no don't listen to the rate no no no you don't plug it in and then the mercy she's immersing it without the plug the plug is right later what she was later on later on she's going to plug it in it's going to hurt her because it's wet okay okay so so the answer is the short answer is we really have to talk about safety because safety is is is the main thing in halacha right what does it say it says that it's safety is the main thing safety right it's something that's dangerous is is some of critical importance um even to something so the answer is if you do it in the right way it will not hurt you and we have experience with many many hundreds or maybe even thousands of callers and people who have 12 volt electric utensils and the right way is after you take it out right you dunk it um after you take it out just make sure all the water is gone the water is gone not just from the areas that you can see like if it's an urn not just from the the place that would hold the water but where the water crept in into where the wires are make sure that it's completely dried out you have to dry it out for a couple days sometimes you'll let it sit let it sit for a couple days to dry out but also shake out make sure there's no shake out the water and as a result of this article I've learned something else someone called me and he told me that if you have these pump pods that you immerse um it's not just enough just to let it sit but he recommends actually like uh turning it like letting it sit for a day and then turning it on a different side so that any water that was stuck somewhere else will will drip out um um so you you have to know what you're doing but if when you dry it out completely and properly then it should work it should work fine just just think of taking a wire and sticking into water and then drawing it out is it affected no that's basically what's happening where it could be affected and that it won't work is if it's basically a computer if your electric electric device is electronic it's electronic meaning like as a computer chip a screen that you press buttons on right so then it's a little computer so we imagine we take this computer here rather buy and we stick it into the water you take your cell phone everyone knows that when you have something not just electric but electronic that's run by computer has a has a chip a motherboard um in it that's going to get ruined if you put it in water okay so in those cases right behind them and says that Rabbi Hunter administrator his position is that you do not need to immerse those things if they're going to get ruined right a a typical Keurig machine that has a screen and a chip and uh all right a current coffee machine Keurig did I not say it right okay okay you're the coffee expert so but the the the the the the coffee machines that have a screen not all of them do the correct but they're mostly plastic yeah but if you put it in the computer is going to get wet and that's that uh that would likely ruin it no I'm not guaranteeing this we're not guaranteeing the watch part that if you total your if you immerse your pump Hut and something happens it's not like like a star cake guarantee you can come to US money back guarantee right okay but don't do that right no we do not guarantee it and we we should say that also that we're just a disclaimer if you if you uh totally at your own risk at your own risk right but with the machines that are computer um um uh controlled and have a chip and typically they would have a screen right those or behind the holes you do not need to immerse them because they will get ruined and since it will get ruined um it's it's a little bit of a technical awesome in my article one second My article I discussed the the the logic behind that reasoning so you can take a look at that um you have these pump pots that have a little lights on the top and things like that is that a light is not necessarily going to a light is is a light is not that is electric it doesn't mean that it has a computer chip and it depends on on the brand or the model or the type um so so just to get that out of the way so yes um we are we are required to toeville the electric uh utensils and if you do it in the right way and dry it out properly and be careful with it then it should not get ruined what I actually don't I'm not recommending this for everybody but sometimes I after I total it I unscrew the part where the when I'm worried about and then I let it dry out like that then I screw it back but not everybody is going to do that I don't do that and it works fine it works right so and then but they look the electronic computer controlled devices they're going to get ruined then they would be free from an obligation to uh to Tova we have a lot more to talk about here but let's get let's get to some of these these questions which um we have a lot a lot happening over here let's see um some of the some of the questions um does the company just need to be owned by a Jew or did you actually have to do the the creating making of the pot um that's that's that's a a good question um it's a little intricate and I'm not sure I can answer that on one foot uh do you have the TOEFL porcelain okay that is now we're gonna get into that that's a good question in other words not electric right right uh if we have time we'll come back to that to that question uh the short answer is that we The Stockade policy is if it's glazed but then we we TOEFL it without a okay um do you have to tow the aluminum pan used for cooking okay uh Steven says hi Robert your favorite students is mnh institution okay okay um what about the utensils to have the cord built in attached okay that's something that we can address right now do you have to TOEFL the court as well if you can't take it out you mean so if you can take the court out many of them have a a removable cord then you should take the court yeah if you cannot take the cord out then you total it uh hold it by The Cordon I don't recommend that but you can't do that anyway because you have to put the whole cord in you you should put the whole cord in even you have to be 12 with a chord now actually the chord is not the thing that you're really worried about in terms of the safety that's not in terms that's not the part that is going to be a problem if it gets wet again imagine just taking a piece of metal a wire and putting it in and drying it off that's not the problem the problem is when it gets into the inner cavity right where the wires are and then it sits and then if it gets rusted and doesn't dry out properly that's what the problem is the cord itself is not a safety is not a safety issue uh and uh but um there are there is a a response uh from Ramos of Feinstein and some follow that that withhold that you would not need to Total the court as a matter of fact you do not need to Total the entire utensil just the part that is going to be touching or or dealing with the food so let's say a typical example might be if you have those wands you know those wands the the stirring like a blender wand yeah so it has a piece of metal with with an attachment and it's one piece together with the part that you hold that has the motor The House of the motor so star k would say put the whole thing in okay according to this other opinion of Moshe you would say you only have to put it in until past the metal blade what about something like so you have to so I guess the answer the what we're telling you is ask your your uh your rub or your wrap all your opposing what did you do but if you're asking us we would say put the whole thing right I think it's going to be okay uh okay Starkey Tech is asking a question okay what doesn't the chain of ownership through Distributors need to also be Jewish yes and uh refers to that in the article I think he's he's leading us on to that who we talked about in the article uh that's another issue which we'll get to shortly Ben says my pump has a chip in it it survived to feel adopted quick okay uh I mean that I would like if you can if you people who are on the chat if you can let us know have you have you totaled electric utensils uh what was your experience did it did it break is it was it okay um and uh Knox that use a blow dry to help dry them out that's a good idea there's always something new that's a good idea I was thinking of that you know use a blow dryer right okay so um that's again that's our opinion that you have to travel these these uh these utensils there again others who hold that one since when you plug them in to the wall right they are like a piece of the wall they only work when you talk when you plug them in and therefore they become like connected to the wall they could so something that is a piece of the house doesn't require tavila it's not a utensil anymore it's a piece of the house so there is that argument out there it's not widely accepted but again if you're you're wrong your Rabbi hoes like that that's that's fine um especially with these with these urns and pump pods it's not accepted because they can hold things even if they're not attached to the wall they they hold water so they can work even if they're not attached but that's not the main maybe you could argue that right but still that argument is more effective let's say by a toaster where it doesn't do anything you put the toast in there it doesn't it doesn't even it holds the bread I guess but that's not really doing anything as opposed to a pot that holds water is is more of a function um now uh you're going to find when you go out into the into buy a pump no somebody was asking for what a pump I'll do so it was a 30 second is um it looks like the same size as regular or good or old-fashioned or you know with like aluminum that we're all used to the shiny ones but instead of having a spout on the bottom it has a device where you have to pump down on the top it's a like a plunger that creates an air pressure air pressure which pushes the water out on the bottom right or from this valve I should I should have prepared a picture of them so everybody can see but um they're pretty pretty popular though they're coming nowadays a certified pump pods coming with a uh with a label that says on it some of them come with a label that says to deal or not required tavila not required it's made by a Jew it doesn't require any to view it and it has its uh it's stamped on or it's it's on it's on the box and question they want to address it how do they do that and the way that they do that is that they own the metal before it's made so they they purchased the metal so it's it's their metals they couldn't just be Jews making it no they're not they could be talented enough is that okay all right everything is made in China or or or South Korea or Chinese Jews or Japan Chinese Jews right so you know they're going to make it in just like you go anything that you buy this uh this I can't understand we we would have our cautious cards made in China if we could get it here quick enough shall we would so so it's not going to be made by Jews so you have to arrange it that allowically from the point of view of Jewish war that is considered as if it was made by a Jewish person so they they buy the medal and they hire the people to uh create it now if they would go if the Jewish owners of these companies would go and actually you know get the medal and pick it up you know bring it actually put it on their truck right and then deliver it to the company that clear would be owned by them right but that's not what they're doing they're sitting here How likely they acquired clearly but what they're doing is they're sitting in an office somewhere and you know buying selling by phone by computer and the challenge is to try and make sure that therefore you own it a logically and I pointed out in the article that it is a it is a lot of challenge because let's say even when you make a a purchase so how did you pay for something nowadays you you pay by plastic but but or or by uh by asking your bank to make a transfer to or you pay by you by credit card there's some other right in in in halacha the laws of a month the monetary laws uh that may not be considered like a real possession like a real real that you're really paid you told your bank to send money to that person okay so then they transferred some zeros and ones on the computer so if the question is is for this acquisition is that enough um and and therefore you need to make sure that the certifier of your power type is reliable so that you can you can know that they know what they're doing um and just so it's not if that's the case and then hardly any of these months well you know they they may do it in a way that's different than that otherwise they may have a way of doing it that is sitting there picking up no no no right we don't want to get into the details but you just have to know that it's reliable it's not like you can just go and say oh well you know it says that it doesn't require to deal and therefore it must be okay that would be like in the olden days people used to look at a k the letter k on the product and say oh it's kosher well nowadays most people know more and they know that well who's behind the cave let me look into it well who's certifying it's the same thing with these pump-ups you have to know uh who your certifier is uh that's really the first point the second certified yet no airplanes line no refrigerators stoves no no there isn't any um I don't know of any OU certified or Huff K certified or The Appliance Guys uh for whatever reason uh the the major certifiers don't certify these things and that's just the way because it's very difficult it could be yeah so um the the second point that I want to make is that let's say it was done in a proper way the certification was handled 100 but you have to make sure that the chain of Jewish ownership is not broken that's what Starke Tech was asking was leading us to this point yes that the chain of Jewish ownership is not broken from the from the manufacturer until it gets into to the the buyer's hands okay if if from for one second it goes out of the the uh Jewish ownership then it would require uh to deal again so for instance this is an example I give in the article let's say you have a friend who's not Jewish but you get along really well with him you're a friendly guy so he decides that for Hanukkah he wants to buy you a present so he goes to the local Jewish store and he says what can I get my good friend or I'm a buyer that he doesn't have the man who has everything so he says so the only there it says a pump pot he'll probably love Papa perfect so so he he goes and he and and he buys his pom pom he comes over and he gives you a stamp with that stamp that says on it that it doesn't require it doesn't require feel it but a little known to you that right it it went out of the chain of ownership because he this your neighbor bought it and now it does require it to feel it so my question is how can the certifier who puts his label on that really guarantee to the end user that it doesn't require immersion it's really difficult to say that and a lot of times we think these things are sold online and that who who's selling it online and who's buying I mean people buy and sell and um I I had a suggestion which I think is is reasonable that the the stamp should not say that it is certified without requiring to feel a carte blanche but it should say certified that no feel is required when purchased from directly from stores that are listed on some website or on some letter of certification in other words a place where it would be able to be updated so it would have your local Jewish stores on there but the actual certification wouldn't say it's certified unless you purchase it directly from these stores you couldn't put all the stores on the label because it changes right and you know but you could say you have to have like one of those little cell phone thingies right you could scan it right good right you're moving me ahead scan here for a list of stores that are that are authorized to sell this app the Q code what's it called Q code yeah so that was my suggestion and we'll see if anybody takes us up on it okay let's get to some of the questions here um uh I I I don't know if we can deal with all of them but let's let's try um Steve is asking what about it that it's connected to the ground that we discussed that a little bit before what about items made as such a as a place such as Color Me Mine I'm not sure what that is I think he means like those places like if you um make you like that you can take your own pottery okay so I guess if you're and then and then you give it and then you fake it for them whatever but you the store begs it for you right uh I think that's what that might be then then they're making it because without them you mean putting in the Kiln I get well I would think that putting in the Kiln if they if they're dying it or whatever they're doing it if it's just Pottery then Pottery does not require uh emerge emerging unless it's glazed so if it's glaze comment okay where you as the consumer painted and the employees established the fires if it's glazed with a glass coating then I would think that that does require to deal with algebrajo okay Ronald is saying there's a big difference between electric devices and electronic devices lights and light circuits should run dry should be okay to power up right okay but when the but there may still be a solid state Electronic Component that might be damaged even Electronics have completely dried which may be difficult maybe okay to power up later okay that's good information uh if you told with an urn without removing the cord with without removing the cord non-removable is it feel a valid I think the question we just said that I think you mean I think they mean if you total and earn uh without immersing the court because you're saying it's not removable so I think it means with that if you totaled it without without um immersing the cord is it to feel valid it would be valid According to some of the opinions we mentioned before but not according to all of them that's my mother-in-law okay electric device you can take it apart and put it back together you do not have to tell them okay so we talk about we talk about that in the article it is correct that uh sometimes you can you can take apart some of the devices but it's not sufficient just to take apart the elect electricity of it and then just put it like unscrew the other electric wires and then yeah you have to actually have to take apart the the pawn itself yeah the the device itself which is not always so easy my father was an engineer so since you paid for the item before it was fired rabbis how does this affect it really need for a totaling um I have to think about that a little bit but offhand I still would think that they are the ones who are complaining who are making it but you are paying them like the number in the middle you are paying them per item it gets a little complicated but I offhand I would think that you do need to Total it um you mean toaster or toaster oven okay that's that's rzh is that's read by Holland I think okay uh you mean toast through a toaster I'm not sure if he's referring to us I guess what we're talking about before the toaster we're referring to the toaster before the toaster oven also no just the toaster the toaster oven does not require to the Olympic cause the food is not touching the toaster in the oven you don't total your um did we say that already we said actually the whole oven has to go in I think when do we say that I said it it's on tape okay we'll get the video tape but the toaster oven can we get a replay please yeah the toaster oven does not need to be total just the just the uh just just the rack of the toaster oven um which is right okay does that have a saying Oh we must have said toaster oven yeah I don't recall that okay I apologize we stand corrected I'm glad that we have uh we have people are paying attention I was just testing you you're right just testing you out there but we always say around the buyer that that that that you have to listen to the end you can't stop in the middle okay we uh Steve is asking why is the toaster different than a regular oven again the toaster touches the food and prepares the food right a toast and therefore the toaster requires a a tequila a regular oven you don't total the oven even the racks of a regular oven is very much of a regular wall oven is different big big Kalin heavy duty canop in a very heavy they'll move them around very much right we consider them to be uh while you're holding a Keurig that will get ruined as Potter concealer so why should you be buttered okay so it's getting a little bit a little bit complicated for you to my article uh footnote um eight and nine and you can take a look there and be happy to discuss it with you Aaron says I told the sandwich maker and it works fine okay great zevi says don't make the blow the dryer on high setting as you may melt the electronics okay that would not be good Etha says she tovil she dried it out never had the problem um Noah says he told without a problem okay also warning us against melting the the the the the utensils with the blow dryer okay um okay Alba says and Alba is from uh Spain right welcome Alba I actually did toggle a seven brandtical but inners was still slightly damp is that a I guess the decal that you plug in ended up blowing every fuse in the house when I plugged it okay not good oh my goodness right um not not a not a good idea um well again we can't emphasize enough that you have to dry it out until you are certain that it is that is perfectly dry um I'd make a crack about Spain but I won't do that Again David is asking again about the toaster oven we must have said toaster oven again we stand corrected it's just the Rex what is the difference between a toaster oven and a countertop oven where's the size and need to toggle the entire oven based on what okay so again we don't we total the racks of a small toaster oven we don't total the racks of a large wall or freestanding oven one is as we mentioned before the oven is connected to the wall this is a little bit connected to that also you don't normally put food directly on the racks in the regular full-size oven you put it in a in a Panera as opposed to a a toaster oven where generally the way you use it you put the toast in and you put it on the rack for the one of the reasons is that the the the the rack that is the toaster oven rack is the the uh what's it called the uh the the lines are are close together so since they're close together when you put food on it it doesn't fall through right but when you have a a regular oven when you put it's not really made it's not made for that right not made for that okay I have like a reunion here okay couldn't you insert the item in the Kiln okay that's a good idea going back to the point of when you make the the uh oh even if the Jews had a kill but you would have to turn it on you have to be there anyway that's excuse me I think the way these things work is you you go there leave the paint that you leave it there right you leave it there you come back in a few days later right for it right correct Steve said my refrigerator has it through the door water dispenser why wouldn't my refrigerator need to be immersed um okay so it's a very large right if you have a crane right if you can do it there there is another leniency for items that are just too big to be moved um that are not normally moved we don't we don't talk about those they're considered to be like attached to the ground and therefore we don't we don't have to uh we don't have to Total them um is the raw metal part of the chain if a Jewish Phil Smith purchase a silver from an Andrew that makes the killer cup from it what is it in Josh is asking um if he takes raw metal and then he uh he uh creates it from the metal uh is that is that considered that he made it yes because the in that case and the way you're describing it that would be considered a jewish-made item and therefore it would be free from the obligation to TOEFL it was saying he's pointing out that even though he doesn't own the metal right it's a little bit different in the cases that we're discussing with the pump pods and her and the urns they're there they have to own the medal and uh again we can't get into a lot of details for that but that's the way that it is I I believe that I heard once that most of the Kiddush cups that come from Israel are actually made there by Jewish Craftsman that's what I think it could probably assume that no um most crafts I mean mostly Jews right we can't assume called with the roof with the majority right I think probably uh so far I mean it's not completely right I don't think that they bring in the kitchen cups from overseas and I don't think they're making them right maybe the knives are different and you know but I think that that probably uh correct okay Josh you said Josh is saying the mail comes from abroad okay but if they're fashioning it it's it's okay I have a question what about if it's like in your knife's case so the metal was from England that the handle let's say is from Israel okay that's put together it was put together in Israel that's a good question I guess the question would be can a knife handle do anything without right can a nice blade do anything without the handling that's just an example but the other cases where the part of it's made by the non-jew parties each one is accepted together each one is a separate uh question can you explain why a Keurig coffee maker does not need to feel it since has a computer chip and how is it different than a person or send a URL for your article on the subject okay um if okay yes it gets in again gets into the article uh Starkey Tech I believe is listening so if you could send a link to where the article is online we would appreciate that uh Alex zumanski says my pace of car is made in China the Chinese hold like the are we in arranging it okay there's a dispute between the Aria and and the uh the Desi ocean how to arrange the sclerosis and the more that's always referring to and so the Chinese made it like the area which is a very common Uh custom uh but actually the person who bought them the Jewish owner told them he designed they told them what to do and in that case you would need if it's made of metal or glass or porcelain whatever you would need you would need to totally um okay the in the in the the last part of the article I talked a little bit about uh about the urns and the pump pods in the workplace using them in a non-kosher setting but we're not going to get not a tavila question not a to feel like do I have other people that use it and they may be right there's soup bowls up to the ready to worry about that and another very important part to this whole discussion of the urns in the pump box is what about uh Shabbos what about using them on Shabbos right because are you when you pump are you causing the uh the uh the Water that's the water to get heated up faster are you causing something to go on you're causing some uh some malach on Chavez that's a very important question uh it's also very intricate and complicated depends on the different models that you have and hopefully you got women in the future will be able to discuss discuss that as well um I want to thank everybody for for joining us I apologize for the for the technical difficulty to do to the weather and uh I want to thank uh Debbie rosensteins for helping us out in videotaping and Ellie Ridler for his technical support um uh again these are these webinars are are archived at kosherclasses.org and also on our Vimeo Channel and our YouTube channel also uh and you just go there and look go to YouTube go to go to Vimeo and look for uh star kosher and you'll see you'll do in a couple days you should be able to find this this webinar if you have any questions please email us at info star-k.org or call us 410-484-4110 and we look forward to seeing you next Wednesday the uh the last Wednesday of the month not next Wednesday next month the last Wednesday of May the last Wednesday of may God willing at 12 noon and again thank you very much for joining and have a great day thank you