07-25-2012 STAR-K Discusses Kosher Fish and the Halachic Issues Involved

good afternoon and welcome to Stark's monthly webinar we're located at the Stark headquarters in Baltimore to my right is Rabbi bar and I'm Rabbi Goldberg and we're glad that you could join us for this session we have webinars at the schedule at the last Wednesday of every month God willing um and uh 12: noon Eastern have we ever had a break webinars in the past uh 45 years sometimes we we sometimes it's usually scheduled for the last Wednesday uh so the if you want to join us through uh through the internet the the uh site is learn kosher.com koser and if you if somehow you're you're on the internet and the sound doesn't do work for you or you just want to join by phone here's the number 218 1203 passcode Is 2020 again 21889 51203 passcode 2020 uh so this this um this uh week is falling out in the middle of what we call the nine days which is the most sorrowful time in the Jewish calendar on Sunday upcoming we have Tish which is the saddest day of the Jewish year when the two temples were destroyed so we're up we're leading up to that period of time and uh one of the restrictions in Jewish law during this during these uh during these nine days is one a Jew does not eat meat or drink wine so what does that leave what choices does that leave a person tofu tofu is a good one uh tell wife there's not that much you know tofu is a would be a good substitution uh and many people end up eating uh fish or fish uh fish products yes I'm kind of fished out or dairy they they have dairy and fish lots of fish what else is there yeah noodles I guess um fish and noodles pasta okay so so so this week so people eat a lot of fish and we thought we would discuss this issue of Kosher fish what makes a Kosher fish what are the issues with Kosher fish and there are lots of there's lots really to talk about uh so let's start with uh what what what are the signs of a Kosher fish so the uh in the Torah there are two signs what are they the fins and scal fins and scales Kosher fish has fins and scales now the Talma tells us that every fish that has scales has also fins right in Hebrew they're called snaper casus so every fish that has casus has scales also has fins so really all you need to do is to know that it has scales then you know it has fins then then the t is bothered so then why does the U why does the Torah list two signs if you really only need one and the ansers uh we're not going to get into that but there's there's an answer to that question uh so but basically bottom line is you need just to look for the you need to know that this fish has uh has uh scales um so what is a scale a scale it's not it's not a cut and dry uh question because even eels have scales too they do mhm really yeah the eels have scales but those scales are more part of their skin if you rip off the scale of an eel you're ripping off some of his skin also the scale that is considered a kosher scale is a scale that when you rip when you pull off the the scale just the scale comes off but it doesn't have any size requirement we had a question about something called the Spanish grouper from consumer they want to know about Spanish grouper it has thin translucent scales very thin uh but they are they are Kosher scales because you can you can uh remove them um and these scales have to be visible with your with your eyes not that you need to take a magnifying glass and and see the scales and and that way you know you have a kosher scales so now a lot of people ask for Kosher fish lists and there are lists out there that that list uh various uh Kosher fish and people want to rely on that the question is is that enough to to use just to go into your store kosher store into your fish store and say Here's a list give me one of these that's on the list why why not okay why not um and the why not it depends on who makes the list but right but assuming that the list star kist we know it's reliable it would be reliable without a doubt right so if it was even even if it's a star klist some of the names of the fish are not um exact meaning you may have a fish called something in English but in the Latin it the name is more exact perhaps in the Latin in the Original Latin and then when they translate it into English it's not exactly correct different fish could be C the same fish could be called different names I'm trying to say you have like a Latin list the list like in the Vatican City or something usually they have the Latin name also but you know but you know there there are there are uh fish sellers that are just not expert and don't know exactly what what the fish that you're asking for is it's uh and and Spanish grouper right there's also fraud there's a lot of fraud believe it or not would you believe that fake fish fake fake uh the sellers uh try to uh sell something that is not what what what you think it is so for instance catfish catfish is clearly not a kosher a Kosher fish but it tastes and it looks like tilapia which is definitely a kosher last time I saw a catfish it had little things coming out of its chin you're talking about the catfish at the bottom of the fish tank the little little fish but they grow to be big too all the catfish have that that's why they call them catfish yeah okay so if you see a whole fish then maybe you would know but what if you see just a just slice of yeah if you go into a store to a fish store and ask for a slice of tilapia they might be they might be running off some cat it could it could be it could be cat it could be a catfish and you wouldn't know so just knowing the name of the fish is not enough I forgot to mention at the beginning that we do have a chat box over here on on your screen uh and we're we're more than happy to answer your questions or to if you want to bring up a uh uh a topic um and we hopefully will be able to get to it um I see there is one off topic question that hopefully we'll get to a little bit later uh just type in at the bottom of your screen in that little box and and then press the enter and you'll it will be able to chat with you um we want to discuss okay well yeah so so I have here an article other buyer that from from a from a magazine um here's one this is about what I had an article about fraud fish fraud fish fraud that that I can't seem to oh here it is here fish fraud is endemic according to new study uh fish scientists using genetic sequencing techniques say they have found that almost a quarter of seafood products are fortunately identified a quarter really 25% that's a lot that is a lot reports in the New York Times sheers reports the times uh uh cheap fish is often substituted for expensive filets um they write Yellow Tail stands in for Mahi Mahi okay well okay both of those I believe are Kosher that wouldn't be an issue for us uh Nile perch is labeled as shark uh and tilapia may be the meril strep of seafood capable of playing almost any role okay so in other words a lot of the fish is is uh is not what you think that you're getting uh and it's possible that the the person behind the counter where you go is an honest person but he's being defered as well I mean theoretically this could be a problem even in a Kosher fish store right could be could be well well well that's that's what the co when you have the certification on the Kos hopefully they're checking it out they're checking it out and only buying it if it comes with certification or if it comes with the scales but what this means is that that it's it's very questionable whether you can go into a noncertified fish store right just buy a piece of and just buy a piece of fish that's not that you can't you can't do that um well if a piece of fish has but if piece of fish still has this if it has his skin on it skin on and you can see the the outline where the scales were so then we're okay right yeah so in terms of identification so sometimes the the people say to to take care of this problem they say you have to buy fish that has a skin on it that sometimes becomes a lingo you have to buy fish that has a skin that's not enough it's not enough just to have the skin it has to have the skin and and scales at least one scale that you can see or you have to be able to be uh knowledgeable enough to identify that it had scales sometimes you look at the fish you'll see the indentation you can see the indentation of the scale and if you can positively identify that then then you know you have a your fish but just having skin on the fish does that wouldn't really uh do anything um and uh also I've seen that some species of cod is not Kosher so just having a name Cod I want a Cod not necessarily there's Cod really that's what I read yeah I read that some there are some that are not koser so I so just it really uh dovet Tales to a question we got we got yesterday really I don't think it had anything to do with this um with this webinar but the question is where would I get a list of Kosher fish in Vietnamese what a list of Kosher fish in Vietnamese language why we are travel in there would be good to have a Kosher fish list F fish list in their language mean transliterated transliterated into speak Vietnamese obviously I am sure there's a fish expert on the star on the starcase STA who can help us obviously and one that knows vietnames too well so this is this is the problem with this kind of request the problem is even if we could transl find someone to translate it accurately which is questionable very questionable uh we could find somebody speaks you know translates it but even the English lists are not necessarily uh reliable so to translate into then into Vietnamese and to go into a Vietnamese store and say I want this fish I mean the bottom line is you're going to have to get you're going to have to look for the scales so the it could it could help a little bit in other words if you had a list in Vietnamese you could say if you know how to say salmon in Vietnamese or you know tilapia so you could go into the store and show him I want tilapia and then you could look for the scales on on the fish so it could help someone right I mean the bottom line is what you're saying is you can't rely on these lists solely right right no pun no pun intended right you can't rely 100% on list but it it is helpful a little bit in the sense that you can sort of talk the language of Kosher fish but you still have to look for the for the scales so uh that's really the that's or or if it had certification then you can rely you can rely on on them um so I don't know if there's any other at the star who can help this uh this questioner but I I I don't I don't think that I I can't at least um Michelle has picked up a little yeah Vietnamese along the way um so okay so that's really uh one issue is first you have to be able to identify what a Kosher fish uh is um second issue and if you wanted to buy from a a non- koser store would be the issue of cutting the fish with a knife that has been used to cut non-co your fish as well so imagine that the the uh uh the person behind the counter cuts a catfish and then you come and order your salmon real C real real catfish and then so there's fish juice and fat on your knife and then you're going to cut your fish your Kosher fish is going to transfer so that that is that is a real issue when that needs to be uh resolved um the knife and the board the whole the knife and the board and the scale and everything business the whole thing needs to be that that's a that's uh need you need to take that into account some Sometimes the best advice is to bring your own knife and board some people do that uh I would ask the place first you know well they have to cooperate with you sometimes they do sometimes don't they have to be going to cooperate we found in Baltimore there was one store that was cooperative and then other store that wasn't right some of the um of the large Supermarket chains they told us that they have rules that they're not allowed to use other people's knives but some of the local Korean markets or the Chinese fish markets they they they seem to be more willing to work with you um it it could be an option if you have them wash their own knife and uh and well you have to with soap and hot water and it has to be check it afterwards has to be really washed well and Co and then wash off the board and then cover it with something so you have you have options um uh one option another thing that we also recommend is that with salmon which is a very popular fish that people like to buy uh it comes in to many of the supermarkets already cut right already filleted in other words it's already in steak whatever they call them Stakes or slabs or whatever they either either a steak uh which is uh cut um horizontally or cut vertically so they come into the store like that with this with the skin they have the skin you can see where the scales were and that's done in the fish factory and we'll say we we'll uh explain in a minute why that's not a problem right and it comes in and you can ask them can we have a piece from the box you know and sometimes still in the package still in the Sometimes they come it's still in the package in the plastic so you they take the whole slab home and uh and then and you're good to go yeah they never been touched by their in in their stores that's really something that we uh we recommend if if you don't want to buy or you don't have access to a Kosher fish store but why is it okay The Cutting that they did in can can I just digress for a minute and that topic about salmon were you going to touch on that at all yeah about the salmon with the color and everything yeah yeah we we going touch about that later yeah yeah so we'll come back right back to this so why is it okay that the that they cut the salmon in the in the U in the uh fish uh producing uh facility why is that okay and why do we say no when you say fish producing facility you mean like a fish farm like a fish farm or a place that's cutting lots lots of the fish there now is farmed and the difference between your store and those places is in your local store the previous customer is asking for whatever fish he wants and you're asking for the fish that you want so the knife goes back and forth but in these factories so they cutting hundreds or or maybe thousands it's dedicated for salmon it might be dedicated that's very possible and even if it's not dedicated for this fish but they're cutting lots and lots of this type of fish at one time more than likely your fish was cut after right so I I have a right to assume that the first few fish that were cut after the non- coer fish those are not the ones I'm getting those are nullified and so the fish I'm getting the knife was already uh was already cleaned off and it may very will a dedicated facility as well so this is why we say that the fish in a in the box is okay also frozen fish so if you have frozen fish with the with the skin where you can see the scales and it's a Kosher fish and it doesn't have any certification we allow that as well because the same same logic it was cut in a in a facility where they're cutting lots and lots of these fish at one time M um so you want to talk about the salmon issue I just thought it was an interesting thing to point out so so so that gets into the whole question of of um whether or not you're acquired is a is a uh a producer or let's say rather a certifier is a certifying agency required to see every fish the scales on every fish in order to certify that's really what it comes down to and R Moshe Feinstein has in his igis mosha he was the the the greatest deiser of the last century last Generation Um Ina 38 so he says over there that yes that you need to positively identify the fish as a Kosher fish by seeing the scales and so you could not eat it and you cannot certify it without that so even in a factory situation even in a factory situation so where they're going through thousands of fish right you need to see every fish M has to be there a rabbi has to be on site mhm to see each fish as it comes down the line right so for instance by tuna let's say we stock certifies tuna uh California the light brand or Ben's brand so that's what we do we have a Mas there and he stands on the line as the fish comes in or he sees it on the rack before it goes into the oven and he quickly checks uh the fish that they that to make sure that they have scales you can the importance of that is because there are times many times where in the net where they clot the fish the Kosher fish you'll have non- kosher species mixed in it could be uh and even if that doesn't happen there's squid I think I've heard instances where there were it could be but even if that doesn't happen there's a requirement uh to positively identify the fish before before uh before eating it now this uh this policy is not held by all the agencies this star policy um it's a more stricter policy the OU publicizes their own policy which is that they do not require uh let's say by tuna they don't require the rabbi to see every fish he goes checking every every month or whatever that's based on a decision that's based on has a response on that that uh since the the only the tuna companies are only interested in tuna and and and they're only interested in the type of tuna that they're producing right now if they're packing uh uh skipjack they'll or alore they'll they won't take the others they're not interested in those so and in all of the the the tens of factories and and the thousands of Productions that all the masim have ever been on theyve never found anything besides tuna going into the can because the stuff that gets caught the catch thrown away before it gets the factory it it is thrown I think it's called by catch it gets thrown back thrown back so can we say that there's a real concern that what you have in your can is not tuna no so the U feels that that's enough to actually certify it and uh so they let's say for instance there is there are Brands like a bumblebee with a with a circle U so those are not based on any Mas seeing it but just based on the fact that the company would not want to uh to give you anything else and there's a lot more to this issue I mean he has a whole response about I'm just summarizing it but it is important to note that reeli who's one of the two poin atou he does not subscribe to this publicly he it's in print in print I've I've seen that he he does not someone told me that he asked rebelski and um he does not agree with this soeli eats star probably probably assume that probably it's it's the star k tun but but that's you know the OU's internal uh decision-making process that's not for us to question it but uh it's it's not a simple it's not a simple cut and dry issue that it's you know that it's fine so you want to get back to the salmon so getting back to the salmon okay so the salmon has besides the logic that they have by the tuna they have another logic there's another logic to proove Salon without seeing the uh the fish the actual fish scale fish and there is the color the color is unique color it's uh pinkish pinkish orange so that's a color that's unique to to Salmon now the truth is that really the uh the color in the salmon is artificial that Salmon well not all salmon and all salmon and all salmon the color is not natural the salmon is naturally gray of course you're telling me the catfish are fraudulent now you telling me the salmon right are not really pink no the Sal Golding is shattering a lot of the salmon is not really pink the salmon is great the reason that salmon that grows in the wild is pink is because they eat Crustaceans like uh shrimp and things other creatures that are orangy that have I think that that would qualify as considered a natural color okay but I I this is what I meant unless you're talking that they're s eating artificial Crustaceans that maybe you could yeah so so the so in in in in the wild they eat uh the pink colored pink food cations that's that doesn't cause any Kosh problem but it makes them pink because they absorb you know the same thing is true with flamingos not to go topic here really what do they eat there's something pink that they eat really that makes them pink but they're still not Kosher after no even so I understand that I'm just saying that in the zoos they feed them pink stuff so that's what they do with the salmon that grows in in the Farms most salmon that you buy nowadays is farm salmon right it's that's why it's cheaper you know much cheaper than the wild salmon and that salmon is um it would would gr cuz there's no crustation for them to eat they're growing in Nets somewhere and there's no in a farm an ocean farm so they they have to make them pink so how do they make them pink they give them artificial artificial coloring pink stuff yeah asan it's called what's it called axan oh cartin like carrots carrots like carrots they don't give they give them something that makes the skin makes their Flesh Pink if you eat too many carrots your your skin will turn uh actually not myself but I I know some I know someone else and they like on to diet and they were just eating carrots they went to the doctor and the doctor said that they got orange skin right the doctor said it's from the carrots it's not a prent condition thing no it we'll go away so so that's the key the key is that different cre different uh creatures or or or beings rather store these cares in different places like humans like we just said stored in the skin the the the the salmon store it in their flesh not in the skin the skin doesn't turn pink just the flesh uh so there aren't any other commercially available I'm now I'm giving you the OU's reasoning right there aren't any other commercially available um fish that that can do that and therefore they feel that it's 100% proof the color even though it's artificial color it is an artificial color but they still feel that it's 100% proof that this is a salmon without having to see the uh the skin so we would not agree with that so yes ran our deiser does not agree with that he he understands there's a logic to it but he doesn't he doesn't agree agree to that uh to that ruling um his feeling is that he's come across forget about the Kines but fish that has been colored after it's after dead they can add color to the fish afterwards and IMB imbue it with a hue so it's not 100% proof in other words take a take a a a fish that didn't emide these cartin and just now is dead lying in front of you you say you tuna fish and do the same thing and color it yeah or a non-er fish and color it not by feeding it but by just put artificial right whatever colorant like like a paint like a spray paint something spray paint your fish that gets absorbed into the fish right so therefore we don't we do not accept salmon that uh that doesn't have uh the the the skin and where you can see the scales um okay uh other there any questions uh we want to take some let's see if we have any anybody wants to chat with us you're welcome there's so much to talk about every what about the uh did you want to mention the uh we have the worms in the in the fish in the fish yeah I was just thinking that was because some of the wild salmon that would talking about has that problem right um this is one of those cous issues that was a big deal at the time and then it kind of people don't think about it and people think it's like no not a problem anymore um but um right so the the the problem was that there were there were found in the flesh of certain fish worms which if you look at it that's because they use them as bait the worms no yeah these are these are these are worms that that they come into the flesh somehow and it really is a it's an involved discussion about where where they come from and how they get there um the code of Jewish law says that worms that are found in the flesh of skin are permitted for various various H reasons um there are those that argue that nowadays it's different that these are coming from the stomach into the skin into the Flesh and therefore it's it's a problem uh the bottom line with that we have we have information on our website you want to go to if you go to our website which is star st- k.org and you type in fish into the into the box the search box you'll come up with our with our list uh and and more information about this but the bottom line is that we are strict about this star k and we only allow fish that do not have a concern of these worms in them right right uh the there are other organ G ation which permit all all fish they feel this this not a problem but we we are basing our reasoning there was a there was a uh a um what we call Kore or a proclamation put out by some of the senior rabbis in Israel that one should avoid these so that's the policy that we have um uh there is there is a ruling yeah okay so that's B there there is much more on our on our website about different types of of fish we find that the the fish that are permitted are more than enough to keep people happy with what kind of what were some of the fish that were we wild CAU Salon I could bring it up for you you want to see RAB I think we said wild CAU salmon was a problem and uh okay hold on a second let me bring it up for you not that I'm such a big fish fan let me see if I can do this star-k your screen is probably going to be moving around a little bit while I do this okay so here let's type fish over here and see if it works every let me get anything okay so let's get it a different way no no you can you can go ahead it was going I didn't see it's just taking a moment to load the Mary at the top okay uh still not coming up let me try it a different way let's go over here to coach your consumer we go to latest Stark lists then we go to check for insects and then we go to fish you can also do check for insect.com you can see over here this is this is the a link to the same page um so you can see that basically we haven't changed that much over the past two years so flounder so here are some of that are okay flounder only if it's fluke Georgia Banks and channel I'm not 100% sure what that means but right uh we allow gilter fish hering gilter fish well right tilapia is one of them sardines some of them are a problem the skinless boneless variety from all location have not been found to contain worms so if you have skinless and boneless you're okay on all the sardines but I've told that to numerous people many people tell me but they want to have the the bones because that's the healthiest part it has the calcium and some of the other uh vitamins in it and then here are the ones that we know should not be used according to our policy butterfish some of the cods some of the flounders halibut and so on then there are there are a lot of fish that aren't on either of these list they're not on the permitted list and they're not on on on the list right like Spanish grou list to be avoided so we just don't have information about that we didn't we didn't study it uh we don't we didn't get information from other agencies so what actually Cass is part of is grouper I I think back which one which one is that Cass it says that grouper it says Mexican grouper Mex well they speak Spanish down there that's not the same as a Spanish grer not the same thing that's not the same as a Spanish grouper uh it might be I mean it might be but very well made made it's a different probably a different fish uh and then white fish and so on um so uh so you know this is this is our our list of the we do actually have also if you want to while we're on this site I might as well show you over here you can go to our Kasha currents articles which is our cly magazine and go to archives and here's A Tale of Two Cities worldwide Fish Production just gives you an article about how how you go and and produce how we produce koser fish how you produce Kosher fish okay so um yeah so so that's the that's the story with the uh with the anakis um there's also another issue with the tuna and and the salmon when they're can uh so one difference that we mentioned before is that the cooking yeah the star k requires that the the the mash see every fish that's first all you tell people that the tuna fish is is cooked tuna fish is cooked is is right I don't know how many people know that Tuna fish is cooked in the can cooked in the can so there's there is a question of of of that it has to be um person has to cook that's that's one important uh question the the again the OU position on on for for their Tunas is they don't require that they don't require a Bish and the reasoning is that the the tuna is first uh steamed hot steamed before it's it's cut and put into the can then it's cooked in the juices steaming so the question is whether or not the steaming um constitutes you're right so so because in the steaming we need to have someone a jewi right right so there is there is a question it's a little involved of of whether or not the steam is called is it's similar to smoking smoking and whether or not smoking means cold smoke or hot smoke and there is a leniency about smoking and so they take that leniency and they apply to the hot steam as well and since after the steaming it is to cooked so then they're not worried about the fact that it Cooks in the in the can I think I think someone did argue once I don't know if it was in you know taking serious ly but now with the with the you know the the fact that eating raw fish has become such a popular sushi sushi right that's that is a logic that the fact that that that these Foods tuna is eaten raw right is would be a logic to say that it does not require any Bish thr correct that's correct um but I don't know if anybody any of the H decises are using that practically speaking it's something to think about I've also heard that different tun that not all tuna can be used as Sushi it has to be a certain type or grade of tuna not necessarily the tuna in your can can be uh oh you mean that that particular species it's not it's not really you're right it doesn't taste good and people don't eat it sushi speci right there's certain could be it depends on species so that's what they do for tuna for salmon uh they don't there's no smoke steaming of the salmon the salmon is just cooked in the can so what did they do what they do is they rely on the fact that the salmon that's in the can is a lower grade of salmon than regular salmon that you would serve let's say you would not serve that grade of salmon at a fancy meal and that is a leniency that it uh does not require a a Jew cooking it now we that's a sar though right we require a a Bish for tuna and we would work for salmon for salmon and for right I don't know if we do any s but if we would we would require we would require a uh a uhit throw um there is another question with fish that that that came up um there is fish in an chovies in the Worster Shire sauce now that's the barbecue like a barbecue sauce how do you said how do you spell it that would be a better question wish to yeah wish to so they uh so they they put anchovies in there sometimes and and so sometimes you'll see star k fish symbol it says star k and then fish next do we have a wish to sh so or an OU fish yeah I've seen that yeah so you may you may see that and the reasoning is that there is fish in there and you you're not permitted to mix fish and meat so you could not that's to alert so that's kind of it's oxymoronic because it's made from wish the sauce is made to go on steak rally right so you cannot use that for for the for your meat now now brilliant sometimes it it it will have anchovies in the ingredient list but it won't say fish by the symbol and the reason for that is artificial anchovies no they're real anchovies but they are nullified in the sauce because they're very small anchovies anyway then they put very little in less than 1.6% so in that case since it's already nullified in the soil we hold and or youu holds also that you'd be allowed to put it on your meat and therefore the the word fish does not appear by the label if you want if you look on the back you can see it has anies and if you want to be strict about it you wouldn't use it on your on your meat but our policy is that it wouldn't require the word fish uhuh so if I'm looking for wish to sheer sauce or sh depending just look for a symbol that doesn't say does say fish and then I could we rest assured that I could use it on my steak right and but Ste on your meat steak unless you there are those some who are strict about it if it has any little bit of fish then you should look on the back if you're strict like that you should look on the ingredients and see if there's anchovies I think there's always there not always there's not always anies no anroy free there are some that don't have any anchovies definitely you look on the front cover and it's like a fish with a thing look through it like a circle like no anchovies yeah what you got to look for there's also sometimes fish and orange juice Believe It or Not fish and orange juice the Tropicana that's the only one I know Tropicana has an okay fish now why would why would people want to put fish and orange juice they want to put Omega-3s the fish the fish oil is really there's no real fish in there the fish oil is in there and then they advertise that it's healthy because of the fish oil um and the okay puts in you would think that would be like almost like a a negative right because I don't think many people want to have orang juice with fish right I I think that we have to double check this so don't really I think that it must be nullified in there the amount of of fish oil in there can't taste it has got to be nullified but I think nonetheless the okay puts the word puts the word fish by the symbol that okay yeah lot of so but it would it would work it would come out according to our policy it would be okay to have that with meat because it's already nullified if it would be nullified I believe it is so we have to double check it um I have I have to look into that but I'm pretty sure it is it doesn't make sense that this a percentage and a half of of 1.6% of cuz then you think you might taste it yeah you would taste it it would be too much it would be too much let's get let's go to some of the questions that we have here um oh there's tons what BR do you make on a tuna wrap okay a tuna WRA outside is a flat thin baked dough wrap inside some tuna salad with plenty of lece and tomatoes it's it's you're right the question really could be asked about any R even if it's not tuna or not fish uh the answer that we we hold well that you make hot behind him it holds that you make hotzi on it because it is considered to be like a bread it it's used like a bread and it's uh generally people don't use that as a snack right if it was like a corn corn corn corn tortilla tortilla would be where there was no wheat flour involved then it would be a sh then it would be a shahak right um what about breaded fish breaded fish that's a that's a loaded question um um because I don't want to put you on the spot the the the the bread the crumbs on the outside would be amonos right the the blessing would be amonos normally that's what you would think however the overwhelming custom is to make a shahak on on the fish because that's considered to to be the main part it it doesn't really work so great Hally really it's hard to understand why Crum should be the main part right right it really should be at least um it should definitely beic looking at it traditionally it should be a m but the custom is to make a shahak if you have some some of them have like like fish sticks like fish stick there might be like you know two-thirds of it might be just crumbs some of the really thick right if you have real thick breading on it then that that really that really becomes the question whether or not even the custom would be to make a shahak but generally people make a shakle on it okay everybody there's a lot to talk about the fish there any if there are any further questions feel free to uh to chat them with us um I want to thank everybody for for joining us we um oh wait wait one second I have one more here every buyer yes okay getting back to the anisakis getting back to the anacis which are little worms in in the in the fish so we are we are strict with it but we do have one said and it's on our website that if you have if you bite the fish and you have half a can sammon if you have canned salmon that you um oh yes that you further MH up if you're going to make like like salmon whatever out of it and you're going to mash it up after it comes out of the can usually that's that's usually that's how that's how people do it they mash the salmon so then you could can so then you could be lenient on any salmon oh see I don't know if I mentioned this before the wild salmon is the one that's that's the problem farm salmon doesn't have the the the worm problem and for someone usual reason for some reason the canned salmon is usually usually wild salmon usually buy in the store is usually farmed because it's cheaper so unless they are uh but you would think it's almost counterintuitive because you would think the canned stuff is actually the more expensive stuff or it's the less expensive stuff that's not the case so when you just go into a store and buy salmon 99% is going to be farmed and it's okay right in terms of the in terms of the worms when you when you buy the can so then you have to think about it because it's wild uh you should you should mash it up Sir behind has a certain lency that you can mash it up uh because we've checked cans of salmon and wild salmon we haven't found it for some reason there we have lab studies that show that it's not in there for some reason even though you can find find it in a fresh wild salmon for some reason in a can Sal we don't really find it so with the additional thinking that if you mash it up even if there' be anything there it would be null if so that's his that's that's his ruling so we have a question here uh from Talia her question is how mesh does it have to be be how mesh does it have to be more like flakes or like almost a paste uh it's hard to give a you know an exact um what normal people consider mashed you know I mean the mashing would be enough so that I mean sorry drink it we don't want make like salmon uh you know whatever salmon Shake not to get too detailed about it but the point would be that if you would have a worm in there and you would mash it it would be at least cut in half so it wouldn't be a whole worm that's the point of it because a whole worm is called a barrier and it would be forbidden but if it's in half at least and you can't recognize it then it would be permitted so it doesn't you don't have to go overboard it's not just the normal mashing so that you you would prepare it for uh for uh for eating would be fine um Rick says isn't allil salmon required to indicate whether it is wild CT or Farm it should but sometimes it's it's not maybe if you buy package it would but sometimes you go to a a caterer you go to a wedding and you served salmon and you don't know whether or not it's wild or it's uh it's farmed it doesn't come with a label when they serve it to you so we say that you can assume that it's farmed uh because the Caterers are not going to give you uh wild salmon and you know it just it just almost unheard of that they should serve that it's too expensive right uh unless unless unless they requested special unless they requested special you know they wouldn't they wouldn't they wouldn't do that so so you wouldn't know but we we say that you can assume that it is it is farmed um and okay so if there aren't any further questions we'll stop it here there problem mixing fish with meat with um I'm sorry fish with milk according to the theim do not mix fish and milk but ashim do it's based on a reading in a uh in in the B Bas Y in uh so many of those of descent many of them are are careful with that they don't mix M fish and milk none of us fish and meat but the them have another step that many of them don't mix fish and cheese or fish and milk some do but many don't um you can find this uh archive class and all our classes really on our on our website which is kosher classes. org k h e r c SS s.org uh look under the uh podcast over there and you can find this archive in um couple of days I want to thank uh R Chapman and and and Debbie for uh helping us out here thank you for your for your assistance and we look forward to seeing you mem next nine days we should um next month okay we have here a note we should not have to have only eat fish right okay here tuna is completely cooked when it is steamed and comes out of the steam the only reason that they cook it in the can is for the retorting process which prevents fism and who said that okay um yeah so so so that's from one of one of our listeners I guess okay um okay so that for the for that that could be for the purpose of of um you know the issue of bish doesn't really really help or or change it doesn't change the the you still would need the uh the issue you still have to come on to the fact that they consider steam to be like smoking uh and that's it so so again the Stark tuna the bottom line is that the star anything that has a star k Tuna on it is it going to be a um there's a mash there who is checking and there is also uh he's also turning on the fires so we do the person can be assured of that again thank you very much we look forward to seeing you next month the last uh Wednesday of every month and if you want to sign up for these alerts to know sometimes uh like Robert B mentioned at the beginning sometimes there are some times when we do not have aest and so if you want to find out what the topic is you can sign up for our alerts at stark. org and you will be alerted to this class and to all our Stark information thanks very much for joining us and have a very good day take care by bye