The Machlokes Rema & Taz About Kreplach - Siman 168 Seif 13

Good morning, friends. Shalom aleichem, baruch haba'im, and welcome everybody. We're continuing in Mishna Berurah Perek Shavuot Siman Kuf Samech Ches. Siman Kuf Samech Ches. We're middle of Seif Yud Gimmel. Let's review what we learned in Seif Yud Gimmel. Let's Let's review what we learned in Seif Yud Gimmel. In Seif Yud Gimmel we learned that even something that is thickly dough, a thick kneaded dough, if you cook it or you fry it, you do not make Hamotzi even if it looks like bread, even if it's Chiyuv in Challah. Why? Because it's cooked. Dough that is cooked, bread that's cooked, it's only if it only loses its status if it's less than a Kazayis. But, dough that's cooked, according to the first De'ah, loses its status automatically. Then the Mechaber brought a Yesh Chalakim, Rabbeinu Tam. Rabbeinu Tam is lenient sometimes. Let's say, if you're learning Hilchos Mikva'os with us and you're in Siman Resh Aleph, Rabbeinu Tam is lenient about a Mikvah that even if it's mostly rainwater, you could be Toivel in it. Here too, Rabbeinu Tam is lenient and he says that if you have dough that's thickly kneaded, if it's cooked or fried, it's still Hamotzi. It's not really It's not It's actually a stringency over here. Rabbeinu Tam is Machmir over here. It does not lose its status of bread. The Minhag is to be Meikel and the Mechaber said a Yarei Shamayim should be Yotzei both opinions and should only eat this uh this dough if you first ate bread. Okay, so the first opinion is you cook a thick dough, it's Mezonos. Rabbeinu Tam, it's Hamotzi. The Minhag is Lehakel, that you make Hamotzi on this. Your Shamayim should should eat bread first. We pointed out this is not really no idea not to donuts and not to bagels. It's not no idea to bagels because bagels are not really cooked. The cooking is very minimal. It will not downgrade it to Hamotzi on this. It's not when it comes to donut dough doesn't apply to donuts either. A Yarei Shamayim doesn't have to be careful to eat a donut only in a meal and the reason is because the donut dough is not thick. It's basically it's cake dough. Mean I'm not 100% sure about that. I'm pretty sure that donut dough is not challah dough. Um In any event the question is like this. A Yarei Shamayim should be Yotzei both opinions and you should only eat this cooked dough if you ate bread. So the question is why will eating bread cover you to be um to be Yotzei this Hamotzi on this. This Hamotzi on this is downgraded to a Hamotzi on this. Will bread for sure cover that? Is it Is it absolute that bread is going to cover this uh downgraded bread? I mean if you're cautious it's Hamotzi on this. So then who says bread is going to cover that bracha? Okay, so let's see the beer halacha on that. >> [snorts] >> We also pointed out um from Dirshu note 64 that if somebody eats donuts during a meal with Shamai Zamin says even if it comes from dessert you don't have to make Hamotzi on this. Why not? It's dessert. You should make Hamotzi on this. It's not possible because in other words question, what Do you know what what bracha do you eat uh do you make on a donut in the middle of a meal? It's definitely Hamotzi on this. So why would you not make Hamotzi on this? The only reason you don't make Hamotzi on this on cake is because it might be Hamotzi. But the donut is not uh possibly Hamotzi. So Shamai Zamin has a chiddush that you eat it to satiate yourself. We asked on that really? No, you don't. Nobody eats a donut to satisfy themselves. You eat a donut because you want something sweet." The Rabbeinu Tam says a different reason. That actually for donuts we are for the opinion of Rabbeinu Tam that they're Hamotzi. Again, that's assuming that it's thick it's thick dough like bread. I guess Rabbeinu Tam is saying donut dough is like bread and it might be Hamotzi. That I could understand. I don't understand what Rabbeinu Tam is saying is that you eat a donut to satisfy yourself. I don't I don't think anybody would make that case or say that or or that's anybody's I don't think anyone in the history of donuts donut consumption ever ate a donut cuz they're hungry and they're trying to They're middle of a meal. They just ate a meal. They're not eating a donut cuz they're still full. Well, you know, not I don't know what maybe 1960, not today. Okay, let's see this Halakha. Though again, um to remind you the Mishna Berurah I and hey the Magen David says another factor that if you did not eat the Magen is to make a nice. However, if you ate where the would be then we have to bench. And then he said that's only if it was needed to bake it. But if it was originally a needed to cook it even if um you ate you would never bench. So the Mishna Berurah himself says that donuts you would never ever bench on no matter how much you eat because it's for sure downgraded to Magen David Al Hamichya. For sure Al Hamichya. Okay. So, Okay, with this long-winded introduction, let's see the beer halacha. Since it's needed thickly, it's not filled with anything. It's not needed with it. Therefore, bread exempts it. >> [snorts] >> How are you going to say the first opinion that it's mezonos? Question, how does it help to wash? What about according to the first opinion that it's mezonos? So, the Eliyahu Rabbah answers the question. The reason why bread helps, as opposed to over here, you're eating it le mazon. Which again, that seems to be what Rav Zalman was saying. That the reason why bread helps is cuz you're eating it to fill yourself, which we said it's hard to buy that. But the smara of the Magen Avraham, The Magen Avraham dismisses that because you're eating it as a dessert. You know why in our case you could be patur through the bread? Because we're talking about donuts filled with meat. You know, they have those today. Which I'm morally opposed to tampering with the not of the donuts. Donuts are meant to have jelly or a custard in it. Once you start decorating it like it's a cake, it's a hilul. It's it's a it's a hilul ha donut. This is not a donut anymore. This is not If Chazal would have seen that they would they would have wouldn't even know what it is. But anyway, the what the Magen Avraham is saying is that if this fried object is uh filled with a meal kind of food, if it's mamula basar, which is a tavshil l'lo kinua, so then it's patur with the bread. Vehekhsheiv mamula. What if the donut is not filled? Neraish Shiyishlas says it's acher shekosav shehavin l'achlei l'mazon l'lo kinua. Have in mind to eat it for food and not for dessert. Again, this Biur Halacha is very important. If you're middle of a meal and you're having a donut or you ate a you had a seudah and you want to eat a donut at the end of the seudah, do you make a mezones on the donut? A um a mezona something that's fried, dough that is fried, is a mezones and will not be patur from through the bread, unless it's eaten as a meal food. Why would it be eaten as a meal food? Either that's your kavana, which I don't I'm not accepting. Um the the the Shulchan Aruch says that but I don't think it applies to our donuts. The Magen Avraham says, "No, it's it's only patur through bread if it's filled with a meal kind of food." That's not that doesn't apply to donuts. So the Mishna Berura says the eitzah is have in mind to eat it as mazon. Then he brings the sefer Halacha Berura there's the hekhsher machavin behekhsher liftoach beracha al hamotzi um eilu bechol gavno achal l'da. Be mechaven when you eat when you make a beracha on hamotzi that it should cover the donut. That could work. That could work. In other words, on Chanukah, we're already almost shlosha yamim kodem haChag. We're actually we're six weeks before the Chag, but okay. Who's counting? We're close enough. It's the closest Yom Tov. Hello based on what we're learning now, what's the best course of action? The best course of action is not to eat the donut. The second best course of action is if you're going to eat the donut and you're going to want and you're eating it as your dessert on Shabbat Hanukkah, you should be when you make the that it should cover the donut. Now, question. Could that work for pie? We never We never use that for a kiss then. That be when you say it should cover your pie. Or maybe it doesn't count for pie because pie is straight out this is more questionable whether it's out. Bottom line is the conclusion of the halakha. Our donuts it's a big question. Maybe you need to make a middle of a meal. The best course of action that I see is to be the when you say to cover the donut. Yeah? Okay. Now, let's go right there in the Rama. The Rama says >> [snorts] >> This whole question is talking about where after you cook it, it has halakha. But, if after you cook the dough, it does not have like luck shin sha rooms luck the hamotzi. The everybody says it's not and it's not a um and it's not a the halakha. Luck shin is not bread. Luck shin is a it's like macaroni. So, you make a and you make a meal. I will look make the halakha. I will look at and kreplach, they do have the image of bread. V'ein l'achlah, um, so then if they do have the image of bread, they're cooked. Now they're it's a safek. So even though the min hagil l'hachkel, a yarei shamayim should only eat them with hamotzi. V'ein l'achlam ela k'ein berech al sh'arah pastila. But the Chazon Ish learns ela b'isah she'ein bah shemen v'advasah k'yotzei v'zeh this is all talking about dough that doesn't have oil or honey or the like ela she'mitugan bahen it's just fried. Aval am nilush bahen but if it's kneaded with additives like oil or honey, k'farina b'dina it's a pas b'kisnin. Then it's pas b'kisnin. Then it's pas b'kisnin. Let's see a little bit. One more Mishna Berurah. Pashstida u'kreplach. What's pashstida? Pashstida is not one of the trap. Don't get don't confuse pashstida for one of the tamei hamikra. No, pashstida is a food. It's not pashstida. No, that's pash, you know. Pashstida is a dish of fruits or basar that's baked between the the shelves of dough. Basically, pashstida is a meat knish. Okay? Pashstida is a meat knish. Kreplach, you know what kreplach are. Perot she'mamulan b'basar, they're filled with meat. Now why are they safek hamotzi? Well, because they're thick dough. And it's fill it's thick dough and it has to'ar lechem. U'k'maisha kassa b'seif siman zayin b'hagah. D'ilu m'mulan m'minei perot havei pas b'kisnin k'maisha kassa b'seif zayin. U'm >> You make a boy min min of zinus but the light cover sudalayo if you're not cover sudalayo but enough of a ton or even if it's baked. That's a lot by passover kissman. So the opinion of the Rama is pastida. Which is a meat kunish or kreplach. It has tire lechem. The dough was cooked. Therefore you should not eat kreplach unless you wash. >> It's cooking water kreplach. >> I don't know I don't know I don't hear you. >> It's cooking water kreplach. >> What do you mean cooking water kreplach? >> It's cooked in water. >> Okay. >> the dough with the filling you put it into into boiling water. >> Okay, but why is it different than macaroni? Macaroni is not uh Macaroni is mezoinis. >> He says it's different than macaroni he says because it's a thicker dough. >> But I I'm just pointing out our kreplach is macaroni. It's the same exact It's the same It's pasta. So his his kreplach must have been more substantial. Right? These kreplach are not our kreplach. Our kreplach are not bleelavslay ava. He had He had like very doughy. He must have had the Rama in Krakow. They had They had the real deal kreplach. They had doughy kreplach. So therefore the Rama said it's safek chameitzi. It's bleelavslay ava. Now the Mishnah Berurah brings the Chazon Ish le das Rama. Achin ha Taz choylik. The Taz argues on the Rama. Who s'viralei de gam pas amula basar ve dag umchayigana have a gamkin bechlal pas aval bechishnan. The Taz says stop it with the kreplach. The kreplach are mezoinis. De ein nachon ami be de lay kava if you're not kaveya. Le chulei alma barchei le be min mezoinis ul achra of may in shallows. You make olive oil over so fast semen you smell a lot of a bizarre. We'll explain this at the end of the semen and the mice are what broccoli crap look at. Meaning We're going to see at the end of the semen. Right now he's just bringing the the two opinions. The ramada says the thick crap block are suffocate hamachi were lenient and we make a mess of noise. However, Yaris my name should only eat it with bread. The ties is saying no. You don't have to be my friend it's a mess of noise unless you're a soda. I'm pointing out our crap block in 2026. Even if you're a soda, you do not wash and bench because it's pasta. It's not blue lasagna of a is blue lasagna rocker. It's macaroni. It's you know, it's a regular pasta. It's no different than bow ties. It's no different than spaghetti. It's no different than the lasagna pasta. Okay. But if it was thicker than that, that would be my focus. This mission bro doesn't pass again. We'll see at the end of the semen what the hell is about this old crap block that you know, usually you don't see actually I'm remembering now maybe my grandmother's crap block. My grandmother Amara Miriam Devaraj her name is Shama began Eden to him and she would make crap block on Purim. That was it was it was much thicker than our crap block like a one ton, right? You know, a one ton. Our crap block are like one tons in a way. It's very thin. But back in the day they had much thicker crap block. I think my grandmother's crap block maybe you know, but you eat you're eating them at the Purim soda. That's enough to me now. You're washing and benching anyway. Okay, let's hold it here. >> Recording stopped.