The Noda B’Yehuda and the Sturgeon Fish

Perek Eilu Treifos concluded with the sugyas related to fish. I think it's kedai to end with one last raid by. Yeah, no one says we're not going to come back to this raid in the next perek or two, but at least to end and make a hadran on perek Eilu Treifos with a topic related to fish. Is it kosher or is it non-kosher? That many, many years ago took the world by storm. In fact, the rosh medabrim in this whole noiseh was none other than the great Noam Elimelech Rabbi Yechezkel Landau, the Beis Din of Prague. In fact, the teshuvah that the Noam Elimelech wrote about this particular fish goes down as arguably the most famous teshuvah in teshuvahs Noam Elimelech. So, imagine that cuz there are a few pretty famous ones, but this is definitely in the conversation. It's on the Mount Rushmore of teshuvahs Noam Elimelech in terms of the impact that it made, the schneid and the legacy that this teshuvah holds. Ad d'rabbanan. So, the teshuvah, which is printed ironically in Madura Tanyana. This is not a Madura Kama, but this is a Madura Tanyana. It's in Yoreh De'ah siman chof ches. The background is that there was a a kehillah in Romania/Hungary that was called Temesvár. The kehillah of Temesvár had formerly been a kehillah of Ashkenazi Jews, but over the last few decades prior to when the Noam Elimelech sat down and and wrote this teshuvah, a lot of Sephardim had come from, you know, different countries and they had settled there to the point that the kehillah of of Temesvár was almost 50% Ashkenazi and and 50% Sephardi. Now, there was a certain fish that was native to that area. The fish in the chuva from the Noda BiYehuda is called the sterel or the shterel. Today it's known as the sterlet, which is a member of the sturgeon species of fish. More about that later. And this fish, the Ashkenazi Jews in Temesvar had not eaten, you know, as long as anybody could remember. But now you have all these Sephardi Jews that are coming, and they say that in Morocco and Tunisia, these different places that we lived in, we used to also have access to this sterel, and we used to eat it. And as a result, they're arguing that this fish is is really kosher. Now, what happened was these two minhagim emerged. There were the Jews that ate it, there were Jews that didn't eat it. In the year 1781, Temesvar hired a new rov. And the rov's name was Reb Tzvi Hirsch Segal. He was a talmid muvhak of the Noda BiYehuda. He was, in the words of Reb Shmuel Landau, "Me'uchal al shulchan ochel." He was very, very close to the Noda BiYehuda. And he comes into the city, and he sees there's this big turmoil. Do eat the fish, you don't eat the fish. And he says, "You know what? I have access to Rav Binyamin Aryeh Landau, my great rebbe." And he sent a letter to his rebbe, and he asks his rebbe, "This fish, is it kosher or is it not kosher?" And included in the package that he sent him, I guess this must have gone certified mail or FedEx, he sends him an actual fish. And he tells Reb Binyamin Aryeh Landau that this is the fish that everybody's talking about, everybody's tomling about, and I need to be makriah this CUZ THAT MAKES SENSE. SOME say it's kosher, the others say this is mamash not kosher. Is it okay or is it not okay? So, the Noda BiYehuda sits down, and he writes a chuva. He says, "Doim doidi litzvi ul'oifer, hanosen imrei shefer, eshkola koifer, arei'hu kloida huvi yedidi v'chavivi, harav hagadol Moshe Umigdal Hachochma Hasholem, oitzu bolam, Reb Tzvi >> You don't see this every day. But every shiva starts with the Yanni. But that doesn't usually come with a bottle of wine, right? It doesn't usually come with a fish, right? Sounds nice. But I got this the day after Yom Kippur in my bag together with the fish. And you asked me to try to figure out what's going on over here. Now, it seems that one of the questions of the shabbos had asked was these Jews that are coming from far away lands, do they have any to say that when we were people used to eat it? Like how do they even believe? And that's really what the first paragraph of the shabbos about. He says you want to know if they believed? He says number one, this is number one. So then they do believe. But besides it's not tell me people are coming and telling you so on and so but there's a believing there in the way that they have that they used to eat this fish. There's no question in the world that this is something that's going to be okay. But he says I took the fish and I looked at it and I experimented on it and I tried figuring out whether this is okay or not. And I'm going to tell you what my findings were. But in order to appreciate the finding of the Buddha, we need to learn one a lot of time. This is and it's on the of a that we call the way that we discuss which was the topic of the last two of the way that we do. So the way that we do this is such a critical way that we do. So what what are things? It will shock by him, right? These are what the animal swims with. What are scales? It will shock by him. These are what is part and parcel of the actual fish. It's the way that we do and it comes from the way that we do. The way that we do is the way we says the even though said that the are to the fish do not mistakenly understand the words of the sages to mean shame THE GOOF OF THAT they're literally attached to the body of the fish and they're literally one with the with the skin of the fish. They're not. I will call him the reason they refer to us is to it's because they don't move but they miss doesn't like it's not BUT THEY DON'T FLAP the same way the fins do but really really they could be removed. In other words, they don't move when they're attached but they could be removed. In fact, they these are the round scales whose surface is the same as a fingernail which can be peeled off the skin of the fish by by hand with a knife and of course you says the anytime you have these scales that are literally and they're attached to the skin of the fish they and they cannot be removed you can't attach them from the of the it's not scales who and the owner of this fish would not be allowed to eat it. For the says the goes to that's why the Gamara said we learned in Gamara yesterday's stuff on the was that it's what does it mean it's because a garment that they get you could take on you could put back off but ANYWAY THE MISSION WAS NOT what does it mean because a beggar is something that you could take on you could PUT THIS SAYS TAKE A LOOK AT THE YOU KNOW Titus says V'Kalfen. What does Kalfen mean? It means to peel. They're peels. Shame clip in shallow and if shot them in the club and we men who can kill say oh you love nice >> [laughter] >> you can peel them the same way you can peel the bark of a tree OR YOU CAN PEEL peel a fruit. The the Syrian Kaskasim who love us that talks about the armor that Golyath was wearing and it describes it as Syrian Kaskasim. Says says if you ever saw the armor that these tough guys used to wear so they were all made of these metal rings. The so they were covered with metal, right? And sometimes there were little gaps in the metal. So what they would do is they would take these Kaskasim and they would go and they would close plug those those little holes. But those were things that you can plug and if you wanted to remove you can remove it. And that's why armor is referred to as Kaskasim because of the nature that this is something that you can be that can come on and something that can come off. Bottom line said the Rambam that you want to know what Kaskasim are, Kaskasim are scales. And even though the Mishna says that they're able to be glued by it's so misleading SAID THE RAMBAM BECAUSE REALLY IT'S ALMOST THE OPPOSITE. K'FUN SOUNDS LIKE YOU CAN'T MOVE IT. PERFECT YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO MOVE IT. AND IF YOU CAN'T MOVE IT IT'S NOT SCALES. IT'S BY DEFINITION you can move it. How do you know I know that? Because Hazal referred to it as a Lavush A. And if you look at Targum Unkelos Targum refers to it as Kalfen AND IT'S POSSIBLE THAT'S the mashal of a Syrian Kaskasim who love us referring to Golyath. The bottom line is the Rambam went ahead and Rambam said an unbelievable chiddush l'Halacha. He said that the only time scales are scales is if they could be removed. If they can't be removed now. Why is this a chiddush l'Halacha? Right we got to absorb this cuz this is where the whole sturgeon controversy you know it's Rambam you know nothing about sturgeon. This is where it starts. It starts because the Rambam is saying that the kaskasim have to be removable. A chiddush cuz the Gemara doesn't say it. It's not a Talmud Bavli, it's not a Talmud Yerushalmi, it's not anywhere in Chazal It's nowhere IN CHAZAL. IN FACT, THE MISHNAH IS MASHMA FAKERT CUZ THE MISHNAH SAYS THE KRUM AND KRUM SOUNDS LIKE THEY CAN'T BE MOVED. But comes again the Rambam and the Rambam said just the opposite. Scales need to be removable. And if they're not adjustable and they're not removable and if they're stuck, you can't take it off this is not going to be considered a scale. How do I know that? I'm I'm learning up a deyak in the lashon a pasuk and an Onkelos cuz the We refer to it as this lavush Chazal mentioned that in a few different places and Onkelos says kalfin. WHAT DOES KALFIN MEAN? It means peels. And based on that, if you cannot peel it, it's not going to it's not going to be kosher. The Shulchan Aruch >> [snorts and clears throat] >> in siman perek aleph dinei dagim, first halacha, simanei dagim u'furashim ba'Torah. Kol she'yesh lo snapir u'kaskeses tahor. U'snapir hu she'shat bo u'kaskeses einah klipah she'hi akufah. It's literally a Mishnah in Ahavah Rabbah Treifos. Kulan pesulim ela says the Rama, v'dafka she'ein lo kalfin biyad o b'kli. The only time something's called kaskasim is if you can remove it biyad u'v'kli. Aval im efshar l'kalfin, but if you can't peel it, mei'or ha'dag, lo mikri kaskeses, it's not called kaskeses. What's the makor? Says the Rama, it's the Maggid Mishnah perek aleph halacha aleph of Hilchos Ma'achalos Asuros. If you look at the Maggid Mishnah, what's the makor to the Maggid Mishnah? It's the Rambam al ha'Torah. So, the Rambam in the law in the first halacha in dinei dagim brings this Rambam and that is the only time a fish is considered a kosher fish is in the event that it has scales that can be removed. But to the extent that these scales cannot be removed, in that instance, it's not going to be considered a kosher fish. So, says the Nodah B'Yehudah, nach tzu lernen in yanyanim v'al anan anina sisi dag zeh d'lush >> These next two paragraphs are epic. He said I experimented with this fish. They have two rows of scales. You know, I tried peeling them off with my hand. I couldn't. They could be removed with a and as long as they could be removed with a that's the criteria that you need that satisfies the base. That's enough to say it's considered peeled. He said I put it in water and I left it there and I added I added some chemical inside of it. And after that, I was even able to peel it with my own hand. says Even had I not been able to peel it before I soaked it in this chemical laden mashka. I would have thought that's okay. Maybe what do you mean if you add chemicals and now all of a sudden you're able to peel it, that's a sign it's kosher. The chemicals removed it. The is what moved it. I didn't do it. I didn't do it. It was the THAT DID IT. WHO CARES? I READ THE BOOK. SAID that it has to be a means it can come off. What's the difference? HOW DO YOU REMOVE IT? IF YOU REMOVE IT SAID OR YOU DID IT WITH SOME CHEMICAL. If I can remove it, I can remove it. So to me the maybe this is I was able to get it off with a key. But the minute I soaked it, boom, it came off in a second. 3 hours, you'll see it's going to peel right off. Add a little chemicals, who cares? At the end of the day this was something I was very easily able to remove. says therefore as far as I'm concerned, this fish sounds kosher." Then the Ramban says, "A gufa I'm sorry, the Noda BiYehuda says, "Shem Rambam the the ikka chazara that the Ramban laid out in parshas Shmini, shem ein eno kluf min klal neichush ba'al tzemach that in the event that you can't peel it, it's not considered kosher." "If there was anyone else in the world that would have said this chiddush I you see don't connect to I would have gone up against him." the klufin because who cares that you CAN'T PEEL IT? "WHOEVER SAID A WORD ABOUT KILUF?" THE RAMBAN SAYS, "YOU WORRY ABOUT THE DIN OF KILUF? Can you explain to me how you're going to read this pasuk?" SO THE OR IS ALSO A LAVUSH. The bas is also a lavush. What can you peel off the skin of an animal, of a person? Could you remove his basar? If you says, "Okay, maybe it's not the biggest raya in the world but the bottom line is the Noda BiYehuda, it doesn't SAY IT ANYWHERE." IN FACT, the Noda BiYehuda said, "If you ask me, I think I have a raya not like the Ramban because if you take a look at the Gemara in Avoda Zara daf lamed tes amud alef, so the Gemara says somebody brought Rav Ashi a certain fish and they asked Rav Ashi, "Is this a kosher fish or is this not a kosher fish?" So the Gemara says Rav Ashi went to the sun, chaza d'aviv beitzimchi, he saw it had scales v'sharya and he said it was mutar. Says the Noda BiYehuda, "U'l'divrei ha'Ramban Who cares that he looked in the sun and he saw that it had scales?" "How did he know that you were able to peel it? V'ha lo na'asa is." "He should have tried." Elavadei, this is a raya not like the Ramban. She says, "You're asking me And if it wasn't the Rambam You know why? Four reasons. Four reasons. NUMBER TWO BE MATRIK WHAT REALLY MEANS. IT doesn't have flat. BUT NO, IT SOUNDS LIKE IT'S PART AND PARCEL. THE OF THE FISH HE SAW THAT SCALE. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? YEAH, IT MEANS THAT IT SPINS OFF. BUT HOW DO YOU know you can peel it? Why didn't you check? He assumed. IT WAS ALL ABOUT SCALES AND NOTHING IF YOU CAN'T PEEL IT. HE SAW THAT IT SCALES. HE SAYS it If you're asking me You're asking me this whole Rambam We have no choice. Because if everybody brings it, then who am I to be I have no choice. I'm this Rambam even though I don't understand it. I will I'll go upon it kosher in the cloth. As long as you can peel it. I don't care how you got it off. He writes this comment here cycle. The rough of Tenishvar Hungary. You [snorts] should know. This fish that you sent me to her. Believe so cloud without any question in the world. The his given a mcdo there was another fish which is a whole another discussion that was mentioned that's called the tick. Seems to also come from the species of sturgeon. So that he didn't send them the actual fish. But the other one that you mentioned assuming if it meets this criteria and he says that's what sounds like from YouTube but I don't know I didn't see it. Going him with believe Hashash. Without any doubt in the world it's going to be okay. So the fish said he receives this letter from his rabbi from the Godel Adar and he immediately goes and he tells his Kahila Kevra this is motor. This is okay. You're allowed to eat it. Everything is fine. And word slowly starts to spread you know within Hungary, Romania, that part of Europe and the word gets out that the Noda was matter of the fish this sterlet fish the stittle and people went and people started eating it. Now just to appreciate for a second the fish of the Noda Yuda. There's really two fish, right? Number one he's saying that when the Noda said that you have to be able to remove it I don't care how you're able to remove it. As long as you can remove it that's going to be okay. Even if it takes three hours of water and even if you have to add some chemical into it. I don't care, right? His lotion is alpha alpha kosher and the cloth him. Yeah I'll eat it right? Doesn't matter how as long as you can remove it that it means it's a and that in of itself is going to be okay. And it's coming a little bit from a place that this Noda fish. So to me the first of the first of the first of the first of the bottom line is that's the first fish of the Noda and no one said it before the Noda. The Noda lotion is beyond the I don't know if I go ahead and I add some chemicals to it make it taste that's going to be okay. But that's the first fish of the Noda. Second fish of the Noda and this is a very big fish is that the minute is wrong in Temesvar and it sounds like in Hungary but was to be matter. People did not eat this fish. So, to go ahead now and say that something that you don't want to know all of a sudden is matter is not so partial. One of the to it being not so partial is one line in a that you have on the base. The is washing is of the immaterial life. If someone wants to get out of it, you can't be matter. The actual equal matter in material life. If we know that you don't want to know matter and we don't know why they were not matter, you can give me reasons why you think it should be matter, but unless you know the reason that they were not matter and you know how to undermine that reason, the is it has to remain matter. And it's not partial to go ahead and say that a by the is suddenly going to be matter. And the again with his big places said, to me this is this doesn't even fall into that it's matter. IT HAS IN SNAP MY LIFE. It's a kosher fish. This is what he sends back. Everything is going to be okay. Fast forward about or so years later. There was a of the who that who at the time was a of of a very in in Hungary. The town of Arad, by the way, not to be confused with Arad in but in the town of of Arad. But this was a man who years later would go down in infamy. His name was Aaron Chorin. Aaron Chorin is today considered one of the proto reformers. I'm sorry for the and this is in Kelek love, said about Aaron Chorin. So, he describes him as Aaron Chorin rabbiner. He says Hamakom befi acher. Just like acher was yotzei letav besra, he was yotzei letav besra. He was the one that fought very hard for the organ in the Hamburg temple in 1819. And he got involved in a lot of controversies and he was on the wrong side of everything during the latter part of his life. And again, the Chasam Sofer called him acher. But [laughter] at the time he's a talmid of the Noide BeYehuda, he comes across as being very sincere and very earnest. And he decides that it's a chutzpah that there are people in Hungary that are still being machmir and not eating this sterlet fish despite the fact that Rabbenu Asher ben Yechiel the Noide BeYehuda went and the BeYehuda said that it was mutar. And one day he goes and he in a very public way he goes to the shuk, it's on an Erev Shabbos, and he says, "I'd like to buy 100 lbs of sterlet and even that other fish, that thick that the Noide BeYehuda mentioned that he never saw, but if it mirrors this fish, it's going to be okay." He makes a big public spiel out of it. Word got around. And I don't know why the gap of time, but several years later another Hungarian rav, someone by the name of Reb Yitzchak Grieshaber, he was the Paks shul rav, he was the rav again a Hungarian city of Paks. Paks. He came and he got very disappointed, very upset at the fact that Aaron Chorin was making such a big deal about this. And even though he's a talmid of BeYehuda and BeYehuda was meikel, but he felt that this was something that was very very wrong. And he got into it with Aaron Chorin. And they started having an old school intellectual debate. So, if you're familiar with polemics from back in the day, so sometimes they would just duke it out in a couple of teshuvos and sometimes they double down. They start writing kuntresim and megillas and and it gets very very intense. And in the year 1798, this is 17 years after the Noda had written his truva. It's 5 years after the Noda already passed away. He sits down and he writes a country as he calls it Imre Nayam. This is Aaron Chorin and he's making the argument for why it is that this fish is muter and a chutzpah that this year the Pach Shuruv is coming OUT AGAINST ME. I DON'T KNOW Maran Shel Kol [clears throat] Yisroel held it's muter. How's it possible that a Hungarian rabbi WITH A SMALL KEY HOLE CAN go ahead and pass it and even have a certain AGAINST PEOPLE THAT ARE MAKEO. IT'S A CHUTZPAH AND HE WAS SO UPSET AND HE GOES in and he writes this safer Imre Nayam where he talks all about everything and he comes out very, very strong. Now, Aaron Chorin was a very clever man till the end of his life. He was very, very smart. And Aaron Chorin did his work. Before he went ahead and he published the Imre Nayam, he verified that the truva from the Noda was authentic. Now, let's appreciate something. You know, we live in a world right now where we have truvas Noda on demand, right? So, we have Madura Kama, we have Madura Tinyana. If you know the history, Shouts of Truvas Noda Madura Kama was printed in what year? Drum roll. 1776. That's when the first edition of Truvas Noda I don't know if it's July 4th, but 1776 is when the first Madura If you want to know what the Yidden were doing in 1776, there's an answer. Back then our founding fathers. But 1776 that's the year that the first Madura of Truvas Noda was printed. The second Madura was printed in 1811. Many years after, almost 20 years after Noda was nifter by his son Reb Shmuel Landau. These Mhm. Truvas all of this excitement took place between the printing of Madura Kama and Madura Tinyana, which means this truva is obviously not in Madura Kama. We said it's in Madura Tinyana. It was put there by Reb Shmuel Landau. But at the time, this is not like a chuva that you can find, you know, in a safer, because it hadn't been published yet. So, who has the chuva? Reb Tzvi Hirsch Siegel has the chuva. Now, Aaron Chorin had reached out to Tzvi Hirsch Siegel, and he asked him if he could send him the real chuva. He sent it to him. But he was even smarter than that. He took the chuva and he sent it to Prague. And he said, "Yilamdeinu Rabbeinu, is this authentic?" He did Kiyum Shtaris, right? What's Kiyum Shtaris? Getting the base before they nachdem before THEY NACHDEM. HE LITERALLY DID A KIYUM SHTARIS. AND HE ASKED THEM. AND HE GETS BACK A letter that's signed by Reb Shmuel Landau, who's now the the Rov of Prague, David the son, Rebbi Yisrael Landau, who's another one of David the son, AND REB ELOZOR FLECKLES ABOUT CHUVA MAY HAVE A AND THEY ALL SAY BEFORE THEY NACHDEM BEFORE THEY NACHDEM. This is 100% legit. This is a real chuva. So, when he comes out now and he's going to write the Imrei Noam, there's going to be no bubbe meises over here. I know this is a real chuva. He goes out, he puts it out, and he comes out guns blazing. But Reb Yitzchak Grieshaber, he went and he wrote a response. His response was called Makkel Noam, right? So, Imrei Noam, Makkel Noam. You know what a makkel is? A stick in the eyes. So, he comes out with a Makkel Noam and he says, "Az diese stick in the eyes, diese stick in the eyes." And he comes out with a Makkel Noam and he writes this rebuttal and he comes after Aaron Chorin. Now, there was a little bit of history between Reb Yitzchak Grieshaber and the Chorin. Chorin is a, you know, a kid. At that point, he wasn't yet the Rosh Yeshiva, but he's a left-leaning type of rabbi, you know, a little too liberal for for sure for the Hungarian rabbonim. And Reb Yitzchak Grieshaber is a frummer, eliger. He's not budging one iota from the mesorah, right? Am Aven Yoven. That's the world that he comes from. And the bottom line is, they go at it a little bit. And um comes and he writes his uh he writes his Makhloket. And in the Makhloket he said something shocking. In the Makhloket he said that I want you to know, I also heard about this uh letter that was written by the Noda B'Yehuda to Rav Tzvi Hirsch Ziegel. And I went to Prague. And I reached out to the Noda B'Yehuda in A KHUM KHUM GEFREK. IS IT REALLY TRUE? AND I TOLD HIM ALL THE reasons that I don't think this makes any sense. I was I was very disturbed by this psak. And I said to me this doesn't make any sense. And he said that THE NODA B'YEHUDA GAVE ME A LETTER. AND IN THE LETTER he said, "I'm khozer from my psak. I back down. I retract my psak." And he said, "Do me a favor. I want you to be a shliach and I want you to send this to Rav Tzvi Hirsch Ziegel. Rav Tzvi Hirsch Ziegel, I want you to send it to him. I want you to be a shliach and you let him know that I was khozer from the psak." And he writes in the Makhloket, "I know what you're going to say. You're going to say, 'Okay, so where's the deliver the goods, right? Where is it?'" So he says, "I have to be honest with you. Do with two copies. One copy I sent uh the Tamish of a roof. I sent to Rav Tzvi Hirsch Ziegel. I don't know where it is." He wasn't alive anymore at the time by the way either. And he says that I don't even know what this is. Ikh veys nisht. And my copy got lost. So I don't have it. I can't prove it. I can't demonstrate it. But I'm telling you what exactly happened. And then he went ahead and this was all included in the Makhloket. He lobbied all the Hungarian Rabbonim and even outside of Hungary. Uber Reisha Rav Mordechai Banet, the Malakh Elohim Slovkis. And Rav Mordechai Banet too came out very strongly on the side of Rav Yisrael Grieser and he said like the Paks Shul that there's no way in the world there's no way in the world that the Noda B'Yehuda was matir this sturgeon fish. Now, to be clear, Rav Mordechai Banet never went so far as to say that the Noda B'Yehuda was khozer. He didn't say that. He didn't have any evidence of that either. But at the same time there was no way in the world in his mind that this was something that was okay. Now it's interesting, just hit the pause button for one second, that one of the big Mand Amars in this whole Polmus was Rav Mordechai Banet as we just mentioned. In fact, just recently Shailos u'Tshuvos Proshus Mordchai on Yoreh De'ah was published. A Chaim came out a year or two ago. This is already on Yoreh De'ah. It was put out by a younger man. His name is Reb Leiby Klein. I uh had the privilege to speak to him this morning. >> [snorts] >> The klal about Ramakal Benet, the frad about this whole Sterlet controversy. He's a moredige ba'chaint uh ba'kishrindige geshmak in the mighty did it unbelievable work. And in the back of this Yoreh De'ah volume, there's a nisfach. It's many, many pages where he goes through this in in very, very clear incredible footnotes. Mamash kedai to go through. But the bottom line is Ramakal Benet's classic. Every swum shuck should have this anyways. But this is classic of classic. But inside the new Proshus Mordchai, there's three simanim that are dedicated to the shaila. Siman for Ramakal Benet, Siman Daled, Siman Lamed Alef, and then Siman Mem Vov. If you go through these simanim and in the nisfach, Reb Leiby makes a big deal about this. There seem to be spheres in Ramakal Benet what his attitude was towards what this tshuvas meant. He never said he was choizer, but there's definitely like a little bit of confusion. Just read a few excerpts. In Siman Daled, the Ramakal Benet says, "U'vli safek sh'agoyim lo al ha'sterlet nisraf." [laughter] There's no way in the world that he was matir this. This fish over here, he says there's no way that was he was uh ever matir campy. In Siman Mem Vov, and this is written to Aaron Chorin. So there he has uh already a whole lot of research and immediately says like this, "Oy toila b'zayeh hadimyon. Oy toila as my b'eemun godol asher sh'mayni noit b'Yehuda b'Yisrael." He said Chorin in his Imrei Noam says that this is kosher based on the Noam Yehuda's tshuvas. Yehuda said that the Sterlet fish is kosher. "U'vli safek lo al ha'oyel al ha'fonim d'aga Niklas Sterlet I take." He had a different type of fish. He said cuz I went ahead and by the way the market of the net had done some public scaling of this fish. He did it in Vien, in Vienna and his finding was that he couldn't remove it. So he said there's no way that he meant this fish. Somebody I believe must have fooled the Yehudah. And when they gave him the fish that they claimed was the surgeon fish, it must have been something else. So if you because he's allowing people to go ahead and eat this fish. countries seemingly innocent. So I don't understand LIKE LIKE WHO ARE YOU TO GO CONNECT WITH THE YEHUDAH? He's very disappointed. He says like what are you doing? And he says the idea who the and I sent this the the I got the original chew and I sent it to I don't know what happened over here. There's no way in the world that Yehudah said this fish. The market of the net said that the Yehudah was never matter this fish. It must have been a different fish or or something must have gone on, right? Again, he didn't know. He was grappling a little bit. As a matter of fact in in similar this is one of the chewers. It says I feel like I'm I'm be I don't know. I'm I'm uncomfortable with what I'm doing here. BUT THERE'S NO WAY HE MEANT this fish." BUT THE HE TOOK it further. He said that you know that was mad to this fish, but then he went ahead and he was hoizer. So what did they do? What did I want to do? Right, what do you do? You have a shaila like this. Now you wrote a truva. Sounds like he was mad to the sturgeon. And now years later, he's not alive anymore. There's no one There's no one alive today that can be makhrish this. Right? There's no one alive that could be makhrish this. Now all of a sudden you have rabonim that say it never happened. These are real rabonim. I'm sure I'm right about it. So what are you supposed to do? So like what would you do? You go back to the source, right? So they decided, you know who's going to be makhria? We're going to go back to Prague. And we're going to ask Rav Shmuel Landau, who was literally the band that was memaleh makom avoisav. And let's hear what he has to say in terms of how exactly this went down. And Baruch Hashem, Rav Shmuel Landau was good to us because he took his response to this whole question that was asked him and incorporated in Tshuvas Naveh Chochmah. And if you take a look at Tshuvas Naveh Chochmah Tish'atin Yano, it's the very next siman. So the tshuva of the Naveh Chochmah himself is siman chof ches. This is siman chof tes. And just a little warning, this is not for the faint of heart. Says Rav Shmuel Landau, he's writing the Rav Muftah Rav Yitzchak of Beis Din Bikila Kedusha Prague. "Mikhtavai hanon higiani. I received your letter. V'inei hekhsho lishol me many davar. You asked something very difficult of me. L'hakhnis atzmi b'davar asher b'makhlokes shnayim. To get involved in a makhlokes. V'ani borei'akh min hamakhlokes. I always run away from a makhlokes. Hakhnis atzmi. Now you expect me to get involved? I'll never do that." He says, "Besides, I'm reading the pamphlets for bol amiddas anitzach. It's a fascinating idea." Again, we're talking about the day we saw this, so we have to be careful. But it's is idea. Sometimes you have a fight and it looks like it's not even about the right stuff about who's right and who's wrong, right? Sometimes fights just take on a life of their own. It says, "I'm I'm schmecking a little on the spectrum of but being that WHO'S AT THE HEART, WHO'S IN THE EYE of the storm? It's my father I feel like I need to respond." my father's original children. Either way. That take a look at the truth. That the fish that my father passed in his motor was the fish that the love sent him. It was that fish. It's the It's the fish. It's the sturgeon. It's the sturgeon fish. I don't care how you remove And then he says, "It's unbelievable to me. I can't fathom." You You claim that my father was closer. to take his retraction and send the letter You should forgive me. What you're saying is a flat out lie. Everybody knows Everyone knows what a sad day my father was. And I just said he wrote all DAY EVERY DAY. WHY WOULD HE HAVE NOT SENT THE LETTER BACK TO ITS original source. Shaya Makira, he knew him. Fire may all his children You know how many years he spent in my father's house? I We KNEW HIM VERY WELL. HE WAS VERY CLOSE TO HIM. WHY DIDN'T HE SEND IT TO THIS strange person? He knew him VERY VERY WELL. YOU THINK HE WAS GOING TO RELY ON YOU? I want you to know my father was such a tzaddik. He was so mad at him when it came to him writing a truva. I'm telling you my father would have not slept. He would not put his head on a pillow. HE WOULD HAVE SENT IT WITH THE PROVERBIAL GAMLA PARCHA. HE SENT A TRUVA OUT INTO THE WORLD. Not printed yet, but still it made its rounds. That [laughter] this fish is mutar and you have Yidden that are sitting at a kiddush club and they're eating the sturgeon fish and you think FOR ONE SECOND MY FATHER WOULD NOT HAVE THOUGHT THAT he needs to put paskvilim all over Europe to tell WHAT THE TOSSER SO, WHAT ARE YOU DOING? WHERE'S THE LETTER? WHERE'S THE LETTER? Where's the letter? Are you got lost in the mail? Come on. Where's the letter? So, I want to tell you another thing. I'll tell you another thing. There's a chazaka that, you know, if you walk into a talmud chacham's house and you see as an apple, you could eat the apple if he gives you permission. You don't have to be concerned that it might be taval. Why? Because there's a chazaka that a chover in a minyan is in a minyan of Torah mitzvot. He says, you know, my father when he passed away, he left over a stack of stuff. He left over a whole pile of a whole pile of truvas. You know what those truvas were for? They were meant for Madura Tanyana He had printed Madura Kama and he was getting ready for Madura Tanyana. He says, do you know this truva that he sent to Rav Shpitzer Segel is in that stack? Do you know it's sitting over there? How could he have left it there? HE'S CHOSHESH FROM IT AND HE NEVER THOUGHT TO TAKE IT OUT OF HIS PILE OF YOU CAN'T EAT AN APPLE CUZ AND MY FATHER WOULD LEAVE A CHEW BUT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN MASTER HOW'S IT SOMETHING LIKE THAT POSSIBLE? AT THE VERY LEAST HE SHOULD HAVE LEFT A LITTLE PAPER THAT SAID HE WAS WHO SHOULD I SAY MY boss name WAS THERE. IT'S PARTIALLY KNOWN you don't even have the letter come on. He said I never HEARD FROM SO HE NEVER EITHER GOT IT CLOSER what he's telling me is not true. This is 100% a lie. Now in the course of the true he tells him that he done this I know it's but I'm telling you right now my father [laughter] was good in learning. My father did the work. He did the experiment. If he was comfortable with the sturgeon I'm telling you have nothing to worry about. This is something that's very okay. There's a lot of Torah in this true as well. It's a few pages long and one of the things that comes up is that believe it or not there's a that quotes a certain fish called the astarian. And he says that that fish the only way you were able to remove the cousin was if you boiled it in hot water. And he says that if you boil in hot water this is quoting the it's going to be okay. So tells him that there's a DIDN'T BRING THIS THAT SAYS SO THE HIMSELF HE SAID IT'S MOTER. THIS WHOLE MY FATHER really is in a foolish Ramban. Now, it seems that there was a little bit of a tumble there if the sturgeon was really the the sturgeon it's not the sturgeon. This is just for a little uh just a mill of the in middles. He does them like this. That this that Aaron at the time is the Rav Meir Rat. Things would change. But at the time he's the Rav Meir Rat when he went ahead and he wrote He says when he passed the Hakima he said I did a lot of research. I went through some Hakima I went through some science books. There's a Jewish doctor obviously. Who lives in Berlin. He has pictures of all the fish. Little fish and big fish. Big ones and small ones different colors. Took all the physical qualities of the fish. Where you can find them. Their names. Right whatever you want you can find a little because of The Shamra over there I found The dog is sturgeon. The sturgeon fish nickel Latin storia. Who is in Italia? Storiano. Who is in surface? Estorian. Who is in Dutch? Steiner. Who is in Hungarian? KECSEGAGY. BUT THE BOTTOM line is you can't make this up. But here's what he says in Italy it's known as the storiano and in Hungarian it's kecsegagy right? Kokosh cake. But the bottom line is this. >> [laughter] >> I don't know made me laugh. You can't make this up right? So the KIDS AND THIS KECSEGAGY IS A whole different Indian it's a different Mesa. This is not what we're going on about. Anyways, it's a long chuva and at the very very end, the last paragraph, Clara shall Dover doubles down does R' Shmuel Landau. And he really said my loss is Balak meets us on it too hard. He said I see that all you want to do is win. >> [laughter] >> I went through your whole country to your whole pamphlet. You're all over the place. Still, you know, you're saying certain things about your Bal Plukta, right? He didn't like Korach. I'm not coming to defend Korach. I don't know him. I'm coming to defend Adonai of Maran Rabbeinu Zecharya of L'rach. That you wrote a country to go CONNECT TO HIM. AND YOU TREATED MY FATHER like this is his first day on the job and he made some sort of mistake. Oh, Pluk was machshil tens of thousands of Jews. Come on. >> [laughter] >> That's my father who was eager to slay Korach and you write Machon Mayan to be moiche against people that are moiche against that there. You see, this is not something that you can do. This is the sharpest part of the chuva. He says that you're saying there's a chillul Hashem. People are eating the sturgeon fish chillul Hashem. I want you to know He said this is not such a chillul Hashem if some people are going to eat the sturgeon fish. The chillul Hashem is coming from all this fighting. So, why should people, the innocent onlooker who doesn't know the Sugya, think that the Torah is two Torahs? Said R' Shmuel Landau, there is no chillul Hashem. Even though it was always assur, no, so Rebbi WAS NOT TO SAY MY FATHER WAS NOT TO SAY IT WAS NOT TO THE STURGEON. I don't think that I don't think that's a kiddush chillul Hashem. >> I want. People didn't eat it. We don't even know why. We're covered up here is weakening. This is how scholars raging right now. This is the late 1870 1798 1799. If I'm going to see two Jews fighting. There's no question in the world. You know what's going to come out from there. This is going TO BE SUCH A IS NOT THAT THERE ARE JEWS BEING SO KIND OF YOU DO. Is that Jews are fighting. That's the and you have to stop fighting. Don't talk to me that's where it's going down. Then he tells him listen if you want to go ahead and you want to be be there. And if you want to pass in your area. Be passing over a lot. Parish called owners. But to go ahead and That's not a proclamation of strength. That's not okay. Epic epic The master of the was very disappointed. That the was that he made up this retraction. He writes another letter to the one that didn't back down. He didn't back down and he doubled down it's the next similar. The one that wanted this to be printed. And he came down very very strong. He said my father held it was motor. And without a question this is the way it is. You know, also a letter to Reb Elezar Fleckles, right? Again, together with Reb Shmuel Landau, they were running the city of Prague and they were the two greatest talmidim of Reb Yehuda. And it's printed in Gimel of Shailos u'Tshuvos Mayim Chaim, it's Tshuva Shin Chof Tes. I'm not going to go through it, but Reb Elezar Fleckles essentially came out the same exact way Reb Shmuel Landau came out. As a matter of fact, in the last line, nobody wrote more poetically than Tshuvos Mayim Chaim. Could be literally nobody. He's so poetic and seems that one of the things that Reb Yisrael Greiditzer of Paks wrote in his pamphlet was that any person that's going to eat from this sturgeon fish is not going to be zocheh to eat from the leviathan. Not going to be zocheh to eat from the leviathan. And he tells the Tshuvos Mayim Chaim, he says, "It just bothers me so much that people are being soimech on Reb Yehuda and they're eating this fish and Reb Yehuda and you and the Prague Beis Din, you're standing by this heter." He says, "I want you to be able to be zocheh to eat from the leviathan." So, he writes back, "Reb Moshe Kosem Lo Soi He said, "Reb Yisrael he's very confident He says, He says, "This You're making me laugh when I hear this. Yoyim, if you want to be zocheh to eat from the leviathan Listen to this poetry and this is madly not normal. He says, "This is not the sheet of Reb Yisrael The bottom line is in Prague, this did not go over well, This whole union it didn't go over well. And they stood very firmly by their heter. In fact, in Prague they ate the sturgeon. It was something that they ate. They held it was mutar, they held it was heter, it was mutar. And this was dominic as it was there. The maiseh this turmoil take took on a life of its own. And the maiseh nimnu vergumru being that it was, you know, being led again the one in the trenches the most was the Pach Sheruf. But the support that he had by the gedolei Yisrael this Aish Olam this a lot of turmoil in this polemus whether a meshumed igro who was the Presburger Rav and you know, I'm definitely one of the gedolei Olam and that that big Rav Landa. You know, where he stood it seems like he was also from the machmirim and from the ostrim. And for sure a machshava net and the bottom line is at the end of the day the ostrim won. And the machmirim won. And it's for that reason ad hayom hazeh until today the sturgeon fish is considered a non-kosher fish. And there is no Orthodox Halachic kashrus agency in the world that will give a heter and will give a hashgacha on the sturgeon fish. It's not going to happen. So at the end of the day the machmirim won. And it's really when you think about it it's just so fascinating. It's so fascinating. You know, whenever you go through one of these polemics again we did an abridged version of it. But whenever you go through one of these polemics it's always like what's the punchline, right? What's the takeaway? I don't know. I'm really not sure. I'm a little I'm a little torn. You know, to me the for sure the more interesting part of the polemic is the aftermath. It's not is the fish kosher or not. It's it's that it was choizer and did they send him the wrong fish? And is it even possible right well you wouldn't say call of and hash to be held in such a sadik in mayna kodosh baruch maybe takala yoda >> [laughter] >> sadik like kosher and even Rabbeinu Tam but be meeda d'achila. This is for sure the way it is. So is is there a makem to say that there were literally kehilas kedoshos of Jews that were eating non-kosher fish based on a psak OF THE LAST THE BIGGEST POSEK OF THE LAST it's exactly 250 years since my daughter came over published, right? The biggest person in the last 250 years, could you say that? I I I I I don't know. Could you say that? Doesn't sound like you can even say that. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. HOW COULD THE LEGACY OF THE NATIVE BE WHO to have this race on it? It's It's almost not possible. But you know, you go through it and there's there's a lot of things that uh you know, cause you Again, this is just me. Like leaving What went on here? First of all, what was the thesis? Now, if you had to say he peeled it off. He said he was able to do it okay and once he soaked it then you know, then for sure he was like Mark had said he did a public uh experiment. He did it in Vien where many of them COULDN'T GET IT OFF. IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET IT OFF. SO WHAT WAS THE THESIS? What is the thesis today? I don't even know. But what was the thesis? Could you peel it off or could you not peel it off? The other question is what was Where was the posture of coming from? What was the thesis? What What was Now, if it was really it doesn't sound like it, right? So so what He was saying this for a reason. The story was awesome. And by the way, there's no question in the world the same is it I was even hesitant to say this because but it was a thesis and he was doing this 100% you know, you look at what was his agenda. Now, hindsight's 20/20. So if you look back in time, you know, he's some very left-leaning rabbi who eventually you know, was the words of the same as the words of the same as the words of the So if that's the case, this looks like an early sign. But then again, you read the you don't see it. And he's defending the who that. AND THE BEST DIDN'T AGREE TO HIM. THEY SAID HE'S RIGHT. So is this a sign of you know, at an early age already showing a similar over here or no, he actually got this one right. And uh yeah, we understand history treats uh the Pach Sheruv a lot better than it treats Khoneh. But in real time, in the late 1790s, he's a rov of a Hungarian city like uh like the Pach Sheruv is, and and technically he's on the right side of things. It's uh it's it's not clear. You know, was this related to Khodesh Asam Na'Teyrah? I don't know. Could be this is what was going on. You know, Haskalah is raging. The Shmuel Landau tells him, he says, "Why are you being makhlikus? The Haskalah is raging. People want to say shesh nay ivrim needs to be makhina." Maybe that's what he's coming from. You going to take a fish that everyone always held was assur. Now you're going to eat it? Who knows what's going to come next? Now the Sam Sofer's battle cry, Khodesh Asam Na'Teyrah, you know, wouldn't start until later. But again, this is definitely early stages Haskalah. There's no no question in the world. And this is the Hungarian shita of we're going to protect this with uh literally with a shield of kaskasim to make sure that that nothing's going to get through. So again, this leaves you hanging. It feels like David HaLevi was muttar. I mean, it's almost Again, THAT'S WHAT CAME FROM BUT THEN THE REMARK when I said that's what we're going to be makhriah, I don't know. This is a very very hard one to to be makhriah. It's not so clear what the legacy of this tumah is. I mean, you know, this idea that Adam Gadol writes a teshuvah and it comes out a certain way and then people get uncomfortable. And then, you know, all the stories start coming. It was khayzeh, it wasn't khayzeh, he meant this, he meant that. This is a clinic in terms of how you go about that. I mean, I don't even think it's a question in the world. This is a clinic. Reb Shmuel Landau and yeah, the damn Madurei Tiyones Siman Khof Tes, Sheker Mukhl gives him six reasons why this is this is for sure not what happened. One thing I will tell you, I don't know if if you know, but the sturgeon fish, right? You know anything about the sturgeon fish? It's a very expensive fish. That the caviar that comes from sturgeon is the most expensive caviar in the the real caviar. And this is something that's eaten only by the mamish this is the You could pay thousands for a beluga sturgeon caviar. It could be like a thousand dollars an ounce. This is like very very high-end stuff. So the fact that Nimnuv Agamba the sturgeon is not kosher definitely saved Klal Yisrael a lot of money. I don't think that's I don't think that's the legacy. But for sure because if not this would be on every fish board that you've ever been to at any time a man. They would say "You passed the sturgeon please. I'll take the beluga sturgeon with the beluga vodka." That would make for a great one two punch. The bottom line is no one's going to eat it today. It's considered you know ready a few hundred years of not okay. Meissen plate they ate it. A fascinating topic and I think an appropriate way to end perek treifus. So again I turn out luck a treifus.